[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11953

There are 26 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Too Much Bone?
From: carnesbill
1b. Re: Too Much Bone?
From: Laura Atkinson

2a. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
From: Rhonda
2b. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
From: Geri
2c. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
From: Rhonda
2d. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
From: ibjef1f
2e. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
From: Sandee Lee

3a. Re: Not good teeth
From: Andrea
3b. Re: Not good teeth
From: Shannon Parker
3c. Re: Not good teeth
From: costrowski75
3d. Re: Not good teeth
From: Linda H. Gower
3e. Re: Not good teeth
From: carnesbill
3f. Re: Not good teeth
From: Laura Atkinson

4a. Re: Slippery Elm powder
From: Yasuko herron

5a. Skin allergy
From: Mary
5b. Re: Skin allergy
From: costrowski75
5c. Re: Skin allergy
From: steph.sorensen

6a. Re: to Catherine on feeding toothless pit bull
From: Morledzep@aol.com
6b. Re: to Catherine on feeding toothless pit bull
From: Morledzep@aol.com
6c. Re: to Catherine on feeding toothless pit bull
From: steph.sorensen

7. Try these sources in Toledo, OH area
From: Michael Moore

8a. My questions about feeding raw
From: Erin Schaaf
8b. Re: My questions about feeding raw
From: Olga

9a. Re: New puppy and new to raw, I need a little info, please
From: janreedharrod

10. Kidney Failure
From: my3jcs

11a. Re: Venison Organs/Parts & First Rawfed litte
From: aqualitybeagles

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Too Much Bone?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:52 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Tamara S. Koehn" <tskoehn@...>
wrote:
>
> I was alarmed when Sharon said too much bone can cause
> problems down the road. Would anybody mind elaborating on
> what those problems might be?

I don't buy that. The exact percentage of anything in a diet is not
critical. Who knows how much is enough to cause problems. Dr.
Lonsdale says that when he had a practice, he had clients who, for
years, fed their apparently healthy dogs nothing but chicken backs
and frames. Both of which are very very boney.

If you feed a variety of animal parts from a variety of animals and
a meal or two a week that is boneless, I don't see how you can feed
enough bone to harm your dog.

> A couple more questions. Does anybody know the ratio of
> the meat/bone/cartilege of chicken necks (I know, too small
> for the Prey model, but I'm just now trying to switch my way
> of thinking.)

I never concern myself with percentages or ratios of anything I feed
my dogs. Feed a variety of animal parts from a variety of animals
and it will all work out.

> Does cartilege count as a bone?

It counts are a part of an animal.

> Is trachea considered an organ meat?

I've never fed it except as part of a whole animal such as a rabbit
so I don't know. Again, it's part of an animal and good to feed.
Don't get hung up on ratios and percentages. People who do are
taking a very simple task(feeding a dog( and making it very
complicated. If you don't worry about percentages and ratios in
your own diet, there is no need to with your dog's diet.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Too Much Bone?
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:21 am ((PDT))

There are specific circumstances where too much bone can cause problems.
Specifically, I'm referring to the whelping bitch. Too much dietary calcium
can cause the parathyroid gland to, in scientific terms <grin> go haywire,
so when calcium is needed to create strong contractions, the parathyroid
gland is non-functional, resulting in uterine inertia. And, post-whelp, the
result of too much dietary calcium can be eclampsia.

Additionally, during growth periods, large breed puppies have shown (in
clinical studies, I'd guess that anecdotal observations by breeders and
owners of large and giant breeds probably echos the same results) that
excessive amounts of calcium can cause skeletal disturbances (apparently
not so much in smaller breeds) and affect the setpoint of the parathyroid
gland even after the excess calcium is removed from the diet.

While the study in the developmental calcium absorbption was something like
300% more than the RDA for dogs and, I agree that it'd be hard to feed a dog
300x the amount of calcium they need while a puppy, in whelping bitches, the
margin for error is much smaller and even smaller for small breed/toy dogs.

While, in general, I agree that if you're feeding prey model, it's difficult
to give a dog too much calcium, sometimes people skim e-mails quickly and
don't really read all of a post and come away with an incorrect conclusion.

I frequently take issue with your posts because you rarely say that yes, you
feed chicken backs daily, without adding that you feed quanties of boneless
meat as well. While it may seem obvious to you that you should add boneless
meat in the diet when you're feeding a boney item, and obvious to those who
are experienced or even new but well researched, I think it leaves a false
impression with those trying to learn that a diet based on chicken backs is
a good thing.

For instance: an acquantance of mine heard somewhere that chicken backs
were a good basic staple for feeding raw. No one thought to add that she
needed to add meat to them. She was feeding one of my boy's littermate 3
pounds a day of chicken backs to keep weight on him, simply because he
wasn't getting enough meat. My boy eats less than a pound a day to maintain
a good weight. Just one example of how providing incomplete information can
mislead people who are new to raw and trying to figure things out.

On 8/24/07, carnesbill <carnesw@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Tamara S. Koehn" <tskoehn@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > I was alarmed when Sharon said too much bone can cause
> > problems down the road. Would anybody mind elaborating on
> > what those problems might be?
>
> I don't buy that. The exact percentage of anything in a diet is not
> critical. Who knows how much is enough to cause problems. Dr.
> Lonsdale says that when he had a practice, he had clients who, for
> years, fed their apparently healthy dogs nothing but chicken backs
> and frames. Both of which are very very boney.
>
> If you feed a variety of animal parts from a variety of animals and
> a meal or two a week that is boneless, I don't see how you can feed
> enough bone to harm your dog.

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
Bertrand Russell

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
Posted by: "Rhonda" rhonda18@gmail.com rhondabrabbin
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:56 am ((PDT))

Hi Giselle,

She was diagnosis at the ripe old age of 4 months; she was having
diarrhea and was lethargic Friday of Memorial weekend I took her to
the vet who took a blood test on her and her blood sugar was 600,
normal is 80 to 150 she had to stay at the emergency vet all weekend
[which was a small fortune I might add] they did the test for EPI and
she had that too.
I probably didn't do this the right was but last night gave her Mahi
Mahi fish very rare, could bring myself to give it to her raw, I am
going to have to ease into this, but this morning she had diarrhea!
I had gotten her to a point to where her poops were just about
perfect, which is a big deal to a dog with EPI. So I guess I need to
read more on how to, or if to do this RAW thing.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Rhonda

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi, Rhonda!
> I just want to say, "Yay to you for coming over to the
Raw
> Side!" and wanting to do the best for your pup and add a bit of
my .02
> cents to Laurie's great post (I'm definitely a meatatarian) by
saying
> that you could use double gloves, or the heavier, longer cuffed,
> reusable ones sold as dishwashing gloves when handling raw until you
> get used to it.
>
> There are some people on this list who are very knowledgeable about
> feeding dogs with EPI and diabetes, they'll chime in with some solid
> advice, I'm sure.
>
> How did your pup get diagnosed with such diseases at such a young
age?
> If I'm not mistaken, these are diseases that usually manifest in a
dog
> when they are older.
>
> TC
> Giselle
> with Bea in New Jersey
>
>
> > I think there are quite a few of us vegetarians feeding raw meat
to
> > our dogs. You will get more comfortable with it as you go
along.
> > Just start with what you can handle and go from there. If you
need
> > to wear latex gloves, that might help. Maybe you can try to
remember
> > this is nature and you're doing the best for your dog by feeding
this
> > way.
> >
> > Organic meat may be slightly better than non-organic, but it's
> > probably not worth too much extra money, imo. It's often still
fed
> > inappropriately (grain-fed). If/when you can afford it, try to
find
> > grass-fed beef/lamb/goat, and more appropriately fed
> > chicken/turkey/pork. You can find grass-fed meats direct from
> > farmers or hunters, at farmers' markets, through local buying
groups
> > (where are you located?), at some Asian markets (they usually
have
> > goat, and I think it's usually grass-fed), or (expensive) at some
> > health food stores.
> <snip>
> > You can feed anywhere--I feed on a towel in the living room.
Others
> > do vinyl shower curtains, bath mats, blankets, outside on the
> > patio/in the yard, in crates, or just on the kitchen floor.
> >
> > Laurie
> >
>

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
Posted by: "Geri" auntigeri@aol.com gericolloton
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:28 am ((PDT))

Hi Rhonda

I am a vegetarian also. Somehow I am able to get past the "ick
factor" although when I first started feeding raw I was definitely
worried about that. I know that feeding raw is best for my fur kids.

Good luck

Geri

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Rhonda" <rhonda18@...> wrote:
>
> I am a vegetarian who wants to start feeding my 6 month old puppy
with
> type 1 insulin dependant diabetes and Exocrine Pancreatic
Insufficiency
> the RAW diet. I just wanted to know if there are any other
vegetarians
> out there and how they were able to get past dealing with raw
meat.

> Rhonda
>

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
Posted by: "Rhonda" rhonda18@gmail.com rhondabrabbin
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:29 am ((PDT))

Kerry,

Thank you so much, that was great info! I am printing your post out
to keep with me.
Rhonda
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "pelirojita" <kerrymurray7@...>
wrote:
>
> -
> > I just wanted to know if there are any other vegetarians
> > > out there and how they were able to get past dealing with raw
meat.
> > The
>
> > Hi, Rhonda. Just another vegetarian(almost vegan) who feeds my
puppy
> > (21 weeks old) raw. Can't help you with the sick part, but I can
tell
> > you I suck it up and cut chickens in half, and other meats into
big
> > hunks. Yuk! I want to puke sometimes, but I really, really
believe
> > it's the best for my dog. Just like I believe a plant based diet
is
> > best for us, a meat based diet is best for my little puppers. It
is
> > hard sometimes, but get as much knowledge as you can so you can
keep
> > telling yourself it's best for the dog!
> >
> > Anna
> >
> Hi Rhonda,
>
> I too am a vegetarian (almost vegan) who has had an almost
> animal-product-free kitchen for the last 6 years (except of course
for
> the very much alive dogs and parrots that regularly call our house
> home). I switched my dogs to raw at the beginning of July. This
list
> is full of very experience raw feeders who have lots of great info
to
> offer. So keep posting your questions and concerns. I don't
qualify
> as experienced but can tell you what I do to get through the whole
> icky meat-handling experience
>
> 1 - I bought a set of good kitchen shears (per recommendation on
this
> list). I find cutting up the meat (when necessary - learn about
> feeding "big") with shears to require much less handling then with
> knives. I dedicate a set of shears to the dogs' food and do NOT use
> them for anything else regardless of how many times they go through
> the dishwasher.
>
> 2 - I feed "big" (for my dog who will eat "big" - the other requires
> appropriate portions cut with previously mentioned shears...) I
suck
> it up the 30-60 seconds it takes me to cut a chicken out of its
> plastic packaging, squeeze the giblets into the body cavity, then
feed
> the whole thing to the dog outside. He eats his fill. I scoop the
> leftovers pack in to his dish (can often do this without even
touching
> them by using a plastic bag or stick or whatever is handy), not
> worrying about the gravel, leaves or anything else that has gotten
> stuck to it, wrap it well in either cling wrap and refrigerate for
the
> next day. I can often get 5 days worth of feeding out of one
chicken
> for one of my dogs (usually feeding him every other day to space it
> out and let him eat his fill). Thus significantly reducing how
often
> and to what extent I handle the meat.
>
> 3 - I have found that as time progresses, I am less and less
> squeamish, get more and more resourceful in minimizing my contact.
> Having two thrilled dogs practically doing backflips while I get the
> food ready is pretty good motivation. Find out what you need to
> accommodate both your dog's age and her health issues (I'm dealing
> with generally healthy, adult dogs), then jump in tweaking your
method
> as you go.
>
> 4 - As an ethical vegetarian, I look for ethically raised meats - I
> shop at Trader Joe's and buy free-range chickens for 1.69 lb. At
> Sunflower Market (a local health food store with prices
significantly
> lower then Whole Foods/Wild Oats) I can get certain cuts of
> hormone-free beef and pork for under $2/lb. At my Community
Supported
> Agricultural (CSA) group I can get grass-fed, ethically raised beef
> tongue, beef heart and the occasional additional "parts" for $1/lb,
as
> well as appropriately fed chicken. A grass-fed beef supplier at my
> local Farmer's Market brings all sorts of trim for me for $3.00/lb
(my
> splurge...), she even invited my toddler son, myself and my dogs to
> her ranch for a pasture party. Now, I do know the Dennis Miller
joke
> about "free-range" chickens being just as dead as any other that
ends
> up on a plate or in a dog's bowl, but all the things above make me
> feel better about my choices.
>
> I have just joined a local rawfeeding co-op and we'll see what
arises
> from that (I have yet to make a purchase due to the size of the
orders
> and my lack of freezer space, I found the co-op on the
> CarnivoreSupplier list that is a sister to this one). I haven't
added
> a new protein lately and need to branch out, but know a few
> bow-hunters who are going to be willing to share real soon.
>
> I find that the prey-model diet makes a lot of sense with my values
as
> nothing goes to waste. The dogs are happy to have whatever parts
that
> would normally not be considered appropriate for human consumption.
> My hunter friends are enjoying my new change-of-heart about their
> passion (actually they are teasing me mercilessly, but then they
have
> promised free meat, so I'll take it...) and are happy to have a
> destination for what they would normally throw out.
>
> Once you have the health issues straight for your girl, jump on in.
> You will find your groove and it does get easier and faster. People
> hear are quite happy to hold your hand in the process. Your dog
will
> thank you for it.
>
> Best of luck,
> Kerry
> Tucson,AZ
>

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________

2d. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
Posted by: "ibjef1f" ibjef1f@yahoo.com ibjef1f
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:52 am ((PDT))

Hey Rhonda,
Welcome to the group and your new journey. When my girlfriend and I
adopted a mostly raw diet for ourselves last year, I researched a raw
diet for our newly adopted pit bull. I was expecting it to be plant
based, since I thought dogs were omnivorous and I fed my previous lab
of over 16 yrs a grain and plant based diet. Had I known then...
All of the replies so far have been great. I would only add that you
consider buying the book "Raw Meaty Bones" by Tom Lonsdale, if you
haven't already. I bought mine at Amazon. It will be a great source of
info for you, as well as this list. Although I'm not squeamish about
handling meat, I agree with all those who say that it will diminish in
time, especially knowing that it will be for your dog's optimal health.
Good luck!

Jef

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________

2e. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:01 pm ((PDT))

Hi Rhonda,

I would suggest looking back into the archives regarding how to feed a dog
with EPI, pancreatitis, etc Here are a few messages to get you started!!

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/119430
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/122181
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/122224
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/91117
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/60393
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/88618

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Rhonda" <rhonda18@gmail.com>

I probably didn't do this the right was but last night gave her Mahi
Mahi fish very rare, could bring myself to give it to her raw, I am
going to have to ease into this, but this morning she had diarrhea!
I had gotten her to a point to where her poops were just about
perfect, which is a big deal to a dog with EPI. So I guess I need to
read more on how to, or if to do this RAW thing.

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Not good teeth
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:00 am ((PDT))

I agree with Bill, missing the front teeth isn't going to be too much
of a problem. Feed nice big meals so that she can't swallow the food
whole and her teeth will come clean pretty quickly. I know you
already have some chicken wings, but you should get some whole
chickens and cut them into quarters first. Wings are not only really
boney, they are small enough for some dogs to try and swallow whole.

If her back teeth are already damaged you might encounter tooth
breaking down the line, but no more than if she continues with her
regular diet. Don't feed her weight bearing bones from super heavy
animals (beef marrow bones for example) and you won't ruin her
teeth. Chicken, pork, turkey, rabbit etc have soft edible bones that
will be good for her. Holler if you have more questions, ok?

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "macattack0201" <bmcneil@...>
wrote:

> it was suggested that maybe it wouldn't be a good idea to give
> her any wings (or other small bones to eat) because it might ruin
> and/or break the rest of her teeth off.

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: Not good teeth
Posted by: "Shannon Parker" mrbatisse@yahoo.ca mrbatisse
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:28 am ((PDT))

Hi Bridget,

My 12 year old grey hound had all of her incisors removed (she wore them down during her racing days) and had terrible plaque on her pre-molars and Molars. I've had her on raw since last November...started her on bone-in chicken right off the bat. I had no problems (chicken bones are so easy for them to chew through) and her teeth are glistening white! My friends who see her (and smell her breath) cannot believe how wonderful they look. This is my experience, so if I were you I would go ahead and give her some bones!

Shannon

macattack0201 <bmcneil@fdainfo.com> wrote:
Please tell me what you think. She was used for breeding and terribly
overbred and I'm afraid that her calcium levels aren't very good.
TIA!
Bridget

---------------------------------
All new Yahoo! Mail
---------------------------------
Get news delivered. Enjoy RSS feeds right on your Mail page.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: Not good teeth
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:14 am ((PDT))

"carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
Dogs don't use their
> front teeth to eat anyway.
*****
Don't be silly. Of course they do.
Now, if you never feed your dog complicated meaty bones that require a
lot of grunt work, that dog may never need them, but that's that dog.
The inscisors are there to use, if they were not used they'd be going,
going, gone.

A dog can go through life without having to rip and tear food, and
because of that we can say with certainy that a dog without inscisors
can eat well. But not using them doesn't mean the species doesn't use
them.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

3d. Re: Not good teeth
Posted by: "Linda H. Gower" pudeltime@bellsouth.net pudeltime
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:31 am ((PDT))

I was totally amazed at my Std Poodle when he was crunching chicken bones with his incisors this week. I suppose jaw pressure is jaw pressure, but wouldn't have expected him to use his front teeth.
He's still testing the grab it and crunch principles

Linda Gower

> "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
> Dogs don't use their
> > front teeth to eat anyway.
> *****
> Don't be silly. Of course they do.

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

3e. Re: Not good teeth
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:21 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>
> "carnesbill" <carnesw@> wrote:
> Dogs don't use their
> > front teeth to eat anyway.
> *****
> Don't be silly. Of course they do.
> Now, if you never feed your dog complicated meaty bones that
> require a lot of grunt work, that dog may never need them,
> but that's that dog.
> The inscisors are there to use, if they were not used they'd
> be going, going, gone.

"(A dog)has six incisors on the upper jaw and six on the lower. He
uses the incisors to nibble shreds of meat from bones and to groom
himself and other dogs. Mutual grooming is a greeting and bonding
behavior in dogs that maintains pack order."

<snip out some stuff about mutual and self grooming>

"Canine teeth are the scary ones. They conjure up mind-pictures of
ferocious wild creatures and lead to fear of mild-mannered dogs that
happen to show their teeth a lot. Wolves use their fangs to grab and
rip their prey; dogs use them to hold objects in their mouths and to
defend themselves when necessary."

"Four premolars line each side of the upper and lower jaws in back
of the canines. These are the shearing teeth, used to rip great
hunks of flesh from prey animals. Although they no longer hunt for
survival, dogs can still eat in the manner of wolves — by grabbing
meat with the premolars and ripping it off the bone."

"Dogs use their premolars to chew on rawhides, bones, and other chew
toys. They hold the toy between their paws and grab it with these
strong pointed teeth by tilting their jaws to the side."

"The top jaw has two molars on each side, and the bottom jaw has
three. These are the crushing teeth, use by wolves to crack caribou
bones .... "
http://www.canismajor.com/dog/teeth.html

In 4 1/2 years of raw feeding, I have never seen my dogs use front
teeth to eat with. Yes, often they get a whole picnic pork roast or
Boston Butt pork roast. They always use side teeth when eating, no
matter what it is or how large it is.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

3f. Re: Not good teeth
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:39 pm ((PDT))

And, in 4+ years, I've seen it numerous times. Most especially when they
get something like a slab o' beef ribs, where there's lots of lovely nibling
to be done to get the last bits of connective tissue off before I take them
away. Complicated doesn't always mean big.

Just 'cause you ain't seen it doesn't mean it don't happen.

On 8/24/07, carnesbill <carnesw@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > "carnesbill" <carnesw@> wrote:
> > Dogs don't use their
> > > front teeth to eat anyway.
> > *****
> > Don't be silly. Of course they do.
> > Now, if you never feed your dog complicated meaty bones that
> > require a lot of grunt work, that dog may never need them,
> > but that's that dog.
> > The inscisors are there to use, if they were not used they'd
> > be going, going, gone.
>
> <lots of snippage>

In 4 1/2 years of raw feeding, I have never seen my dogs use front
> teeth to eat with. Yes, often they get a whole picnic pork roast or
> Boston Butt pork roast. They always use side teeth when eating, no
> matter what it is or how large it is.
>
> Bill Carnes
> http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm
>

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
Bertrand Russell

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Slippery Elm powder
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:29 am ((PDT))

>fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm

I am started thinking that I should have this all time around,but this elm powder can be stored unlimited time?

Where do you keep it?

Freezer? At room temp?

Dosage is human dosage on package? I need to see when I get it though.For 30lb dog,it maybe tiny bit,I am guessing..

I am wondering if I should get 1lb or 3 cups one..I know that I give only when my dog gets liquidy diarrhea and not giving on regular basis.

If the powder lasts forever,I may go for 1lb.

So far,I am using liquid probiotic that she does pretty good on only when she has prob with poo. I was thinking to finish this up and then get this elm powder but maybe good to keep it around and thinking to get it.

thank you

yassy

---------------------------------
Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Skin allergy
Posted by: "Mary" halle4@comcast.net hallebest
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:34 am ((PDT))

I have a Crested who is good about eating the raw foods put in front of him
but he has broken out on his back. The bumps aren't tiny, they are bit
unsightly. Although Crested's certainly have skin problems, this breakout
has happened since we started on raw a few months ago. They don't bother
him but I think he may have an allergy to one of the foods he is eating. He
eats chicken, beef and pork and on occasion fish.

Which would be the most likely to cause a skin reaction? Anybody know?

Mary Smallwood
York, PA
halle4@comcast.net

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: Skin allergy
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:05 am ((PDT))

"Mary" <halle4@...> wrote:
>
> I have a Crested who is good about eating the raw foods put in
front of him
> but he has broken out on his back. The bumps aren't tiny, they are
bit
> unsightly. Although Crested's certainly have skin problems, this
breakout
> has happened since we started on raw a few months ago. They don't
bother
> him but I think he may have an allergy to one of the foods he is
eating. He
> eats chicken, beef and pork and on occasion fish.
>
> Which would be the most likely to cause a skin reaction?
*****
There's no way for us to know. A protein sensitivity can be to any
protein, depends on the dog.

What you can do is feed one and only one meat (including treats and
organs) for a month or so to see if that changes anything. You may
have to go through all the proteins you have fed if in fact he was
not having this reaction pre raw.

You also might assure the meats you are feeding are not enhanced with
various flavors or solutions. Some dogs are not notably affected by
such injections but many are. Also suss out all potential
environmental irritants as well. Consider vaccines, parasite
treatments and other medications plus parasites themselves.

You must be patient and diligent--or very lucky--since this sort of
histamine detecting may take some time.

I don't believe it's likely the actual meat protein is causing his
reaction but anything's possible.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

5c. Re: Skin allergy
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:52 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>
> "Mary" <halle4@> wrote:
> >
> > I have a Crested who is good about eating the raw foods put in
> front of him
> > but he has broken out on his back. The bumps aren't tiny, they
are
> bit
> > unsightly.

> >
> > Which would be the most likely to cause a skin reaction?
*************************
Chris O wrote:

> There's no way for us to know. A protein sensitivity can be to
any protein, depends on the dog.
>
> I don't believe it's likely the actual meat protein is causing his
> reaction but anything's possible.
> Chris O
>
**************************
I actually talked to a co-worker that has a rescue that is allergic
to most proteins and actually has to eat a special food where the
protein has been modified genetically so her body doesn't recognize
it.

If the bumps don't go away or appear to get worse and you can't
figure out the problem, I can always ask my co-worker again what
food she is using for her rescue.

-Steph Sorensen
w/ Scarlet, Lucy, and Minkey (the kitty)

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: to Catherine on feeding toothless pit bull
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:16 am ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/24/2007 4:48:14 AM Pacific Standard Time,
steph.sorensen@yahoo.com writes:

Wouldn't I have to worry about him choking on the bones if they
weren't ground for him? Since he was starving when I got him (he
weighed only 20 lbs and now weighs about 50, just to give you an
idea), he tends to "wolf" (pardon the pun) his food down. I would
be afraid he would not try hard enough to chew the bones. Or that
he wouldn't be able to. He has strong jaws, just no teeth to crush.

****his teeth haven't been removed, right? they are just ground down to the
gum line? that's what you said in your first post.

give him a bone-in breast.. see what he does. The way wolves naturally eat
is to rip big hunks off a carcass and swallow it in the most efficient way
possible.. the less chewing the better. they are naturally designed to swallow
large hunks of stuff..

IF he chokes, he will hack it back up and rechew it to make it go down. This
is normal and natural.. if he swallows a hunk too big for him to digest he
will toss it back up and re-eat it, this too is normal and natural.

with dogs this size i personally would start with nothing larger than chicken
quarters, just because they are big enough to be difficult to swallow whole
and just about the right size for a meal for 50ish lb dogs.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: to Catherine on feeding toothless pit bull
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:24 am ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/24/2007 4:48:14 AM Pacific Standard Time,
steph.sorensen@yahoo.com writes:

My pit can crack a large ham bone in half within 20 minutes
or so. I give them bones all the time as treats, but never as meals.

****and.. NO MORE BARE NAKED OR COOKED BONES.... there..you've been scolded.

seriously, ham bones are cooked, and therefore the possibility of
splintering, choking and blockages is ever present.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

6c. Re: to Catherine on feeding toothless pit bull
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:52 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Morledzep@... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 8/24/2007 4:48:14 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> steph.sorensen@... writes:
>
> My pit can crack a large ham bone in half within 20 minutes
> or so. I give them bones all the time as treats, but never as
meals.
>
>
>
> ****and.. NO MORE BARE NAKED OR COOKED BONES.... there..you've
been scolded.
>
> seriously, ham bones are cooked, and therefore the possibility of
> splintering, choking and blockages is ever present.
>
> Catherine R.
>
>
>
> **************************************

Even bones they sell at pet stores? That is what I give them. They
may be beef bones, but the package sometimes says ham bones. That
is what I give them. I would never give them bones I've cooked.
That much I do know. :)

-Steph Sorensen
w/ Scarlet, Lucy and Minkey (the kitty)

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7. Try these sources in Toledo, OH area
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:32 am ((PDT))

Hey, Joe -- try House of Meats - If you buy by the case, they have some pretty good prices. I can't claim to have "found" them on my own; Candace from the list pointed me this direction. Their chicken by the case and almost all organs are great prices. If even you don't buy a case, their organ prices are reasonable. Talk to the manager, and once you're "known," you may get even better deals.

And, at the Toledo Market you can get goat. Keep in mind that these folks are Muslim, so their traditions are "different". Never tell them you are buying meat for your dogs, though!! Freeze anything you buy there for a month to kill any parasites, since it's not FDA inspected.

Or, if you're up for a road trip, check out Eastern Market in Detroit (Gerry Bierley tipped me off to this one!).
There is also a buyers' co-op in the Columbus area, and several of us in Findlay buy from there sometimes, so that's a possibility for you as well.

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. My questions about feeding raw
Posted by: "Erin Schaaf" lovefiona_555@yahoo.com lovefiona_555
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:21 pm ((PDT))

I am not sure if I can start posting questions right away, I am trudging through 14 emails from this group, LOL! So here's a small amount of background. Right now, I am working on switching my 2 dogs over to RAW. Fiona (our staffordshire terrier) has problems with vomitting and loose stools, and after several trips to the vet and an equal amount of changes in food, my vet wants to do some major diagnostic tests. I believe that before I put her through all that, I would like to try RAW in case she is having problems with allergies. Rufus (our Lab/Doberman mix) is coming along for the ride. I began this morning giving them some raw chicken. So here are the questions:
1. How much to feed? Rufus is 65 lbs and Fiona is 37. I am unsure of the cats weights right now, Diego is a kitten around 5 months and Carmen is about a year old (Diego was weighed at his neuter about a month ago, he was 4.4 lbs. Carmen hasn't been to the vet since December when we got her as a kitten). Their bodies look to be a little on the full size (not overweight, but not as trim as they probably should be). Exercise consists of at least two walks a day and/or a third walk or running around on a 30 ft. lead in the park). Carmen is too overweight in my opinion, and Diego is a growing kitten.
2. I hear about the Prey Model diet, and it is really confusing me. Feed organ meats one day, bones another.....I am lost. Is this the way to go, or is it best to feed just a variety of meats and parts with no sets schedule.
3. Cats. Mine aren't interested in bones. Can I feed them groundand small diced meats instead? I know it is extremely bad for overweight cats to go without food for more than 24 hours, and she won't eat the whole meat.

I am sure there will be other questions, but these are all I can think of right now. Thank you in advance, and I apologize if I am posting wrong.

Erin

---------------------------------
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: My questions about feeding raw
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:52 pm ((PDT))

Hi Erin and welcome to the group!

I have two dogs also, who are similar size to yours (40 and 75 lbs) so
hopefully listing what I feed will get you started. It's really not
complicated at all - to start, get some whole chickens, or chicken leg
quarters from the store. I would suggest one quarter per day for the
smaller dog, and 2 quarters (or one half chicken) per day for the
larger dog. Feed that for about a week, so that their tummies can
adjust to this new food.

After this first week, you will add another protein to their chicken
diet - usually turkey or pork is a good choice. After a few days
you'll add a third, and so on. Give it a few weeks before you start
worrying about organs - they loosen stools, which is not a bad thing,
but you don't want to get too many things started at once. If you get
whole chickens and they come with that "goodie" bag, just toss it in
the freezer for now and feed later.

Measuring raw food is different than kibble. Rather than cups, we use
weight and it's based on your dogs' ideal adult weight. The general
guideline is 2-3% of their weight (so for a 50 lb dog that would be
1-1.5 lbs) and I usually suggest to start at 2% and adjust from there.
Individual metabolism varies widely, so no one can tell you exactly
how much to feed. Just keep an eye on their ribs and make sure you
can feel them. Can't help much with cats, as I don't have any, sorry.

In the meantime keep reading, and toss out any questions you may have.
It seems overwhelming right now, I know (we've all been there!) but
as you read, it will begin to make more sense.

Olga

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: New puppy and new to raw, I need a little info, please
Posted by: "janreedharrod" janreedharrod@gmail.com janreedharrod
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:21 pm ((PDT))

Thank you so much, Jeni and Andrea, for the great info re veggies and
such. I'm off to the market for meat and chix for her to sink her
little teeth into and tear apart. Can't wait to watch. I'll try the
egg offering but don't think she'll know what to do with a raw egg in
shell but we'll see, she is, after all, a pretty smart little cookie.

Thanks again, Jan
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "janreedharrod"
> janreedharrod@ wrote:
>
> > Should I cut out the veggie patty, and mix egg with crushed shell
> > along with yogurt and cheese into some of the meat patties and
> > freeze them, or is that even necessary in her diet?
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10. Kidney Failure
Posted by: "my3jcs" my3jcs@yahoo.com my3jcs
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:51 pm ((PDT))

Hello!

I am new to the list and new to raw feeding. I have 3 65-70 lb. dogs
who I began on the diet just over a week ago. They all seem to be
doing great and it is the most fascinating thing watching them eat.
Kibble was so boring. I'm hoping for some help with one of my dogs
who has kidney problems. Over a year ago, we were told by our vet,
that our dog had failing kidneys and they put him on the Science KD
dog food. He is a 9 yr. old boxer/sharpei. Can anyone share with me
how best to feed him raw? My vet warned me about feeding him too much
protein with the raw food so I'm worried about making my dog worse.

Thank you so much!

Carol W.

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Re: Venison Organs/Parts & First Rawfed litte
Posted by: "aqualitybeagles" a-qualitybeagles@earthlink.net aqualitybeagles
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:52 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Tina Berry" <k9baron@...> wrote:
"The shoulders/neck is there a lot of meat on them? and the carcass?"

They are regular shoulders, neck & carass straight off the deer,
nothing detached except the hide and loins (we keep the loins & hams
for ourselves). The deer (a young buck) was aged at 1.5 to 2 yrs old,
so he weighed around 100lbs.

I fed the carass, some of my younger dogs dove in, it seemed to me to
be around 6-10 lbs of meat on the carcass - I cut off what the younger
dogs didn't eat and gave it to the ones who seemed unsure of the
carass. The ribs were very soft so they consumed several of them as
well as the brisket area. I believe it was a very meaty meal in the
way that they ate it (still quite alot of bone leftover, but that will
probably change next time they encounter a carcass).

Their poop was normal for the following 48 hours, just a little soft
sometimes.

It seems as if everyone is alright with the venison. I have not yet
tried venison organs and I think that it will take some time before
the whole pack eagerly dives into a carcass, but for a first time with
such a large piece and with this new meat I think it went well.

Laura Peters
A-Quality Beagles, Reg'd.
www.a-qualitybeagles.com

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:rawfeeding-normal@yahoogroups.com
mailto:rawfeeding-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rawfeeding-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------