[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11951

There are 18 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: question
From: Katie
1.2. Re: question
From: Giselle

2a. Re: maybe slight constipation
From: esmolensky

3a. Re: Hello! New here...
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

4a. Re: Words of caution
From: Joseph

5a. Re: I must be doing something right!!! You guys are INCREDIBLE!!!
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

6a. Re: New to raw...diarrhea...but not giving up! =)
From: Joseph

7a. Re: Should I be worried?
From: John and Jeni Blackmon
7b. Re: Should I be worried?
From: tobyfwest

8a. Re: Mucousy poop;Is this from too much treats??
From: Yasuko herron

9a. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
From: pelirojita

10a. Horrendous conflict of interests in VMAs
From: ptmagi

11. Fantastic Score!!!
From: irwin_bird

12. OT: Vaccinations
From: ptmagi

13a. Pork ribs and choking
From: ptmagi

14a. Re: Infections and pancreatitis
From: ptmagi
14b. Re: Infections and pancreatitis
From: ptmagi

15a. Re: to Catherine on feeding toothless pit bull
From: steph.sorensen

Messages
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1.1. Re: question
Posted by: "Katie" kcrockett@mac.com kcrockettla7
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:43 pm ((PDT))

Thanks, Chris and Olga!!

I do feed a bit of variety . . . I haven't been raw feeding long, so it's mostly chicken . . . but
I have fed a little pork and a little beef also . . . oh, and lamb.

I was just curious about what they NEED to eat. I'm obviously over complicating!!

I usually buy whole cut up chickens, or whole chickens and ask the butcher to cut in half
and quarters for me (I feed dogs of different sizes . . . my goldens get about 2 pounds of
meat a day, my border collie/aussie mix gets a little over a pounds, and my schipperke
gets a little under a quarter pound . . . i alternate or split who gets the "goodies" inside . . .
(and, if they're on sale, i buy boneless chicken). and, like i said, soemtimes lamb or beef
or pork with their chicken.

I just can't help worrying that I'm "missing" something . . . something that could be given
with another meat source . . .

...katie

>
> Feeding as many chicken parts as possible plus beef heart (or pork or
> lamb or buffalo, etc.) is about the simplest variety to seek. Adding
> pork is a good step forward. Adding another red meat or fish is a
> step again. Each new variety adds a bit of something here, a tad
> more of something there.
>
> That say, a diet of chicken ala chicken will suffice if that's all
> you've got to offer...at least for a while. Just feed as much of the
> chicken as you can. And keep your eyes peeled for opportunity.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (75)
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1.2. Re: question
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:09 pm ((PDT))

Oooh, a Schippy! I miss my little Perky. : (
Kiss 'n hug your little black dog for me, Katie. Does he pattycake?

It seems that its that time again, even tho' I think I've posted "Lis'
list" several times today. Thanks, Lis!
'Pologies to anyone who reads every post, (Chris!)

The more variety in protein and body part and organ, the better.
The more species appropriate the better.
What would the wolf eat? ; )

We all do the best we can with what we can find and afford.
> where do you look for meat suppliers?

Permission to repost from Lis

1) look up meat and poultry packers, processors, and distributors in
the yellow pages. You may be able to get great prices from them if
you order in bulk, and/or they may have a discount outlet that is
open to the public.
2) I get many of my best deals in Asian/Oriental markets. I've also
heard that Hispanic and Caribbean markets have great variety and
prices too.
3) you may be able to join a barter group.
4) google breeders (i.e. rabbit, goat, lamb, etc.) who are in your
geographic area. They may have culls they want to get rid of, or
lower prices overall.
5) look up bulk suppliers and frozen bulk foods in your yellow pages.
6) if you have a Chinatown nearby, definitely make a visit.
7) let your friends, relatives, and neighbors know you want any
freezer burn or old meat when they clean out their freezers, and tell
them to pass the word along.
8) if you belong to a church or social group, tell those members to
mention it to their friends and relatives as well.
9) see if there are any co-ops or meat buying groups near you. Check
on Yahoo, or google to see.
10) try Craigslist - it's amazing what you can get for free or cheap.
11) and I get meat and fish all the time (for free) through
Freecycle. Join multiple lists if there are a few close by.
12) some Wal-marts and some Costcos and some Sams Clubs have good
deals, but you may want to make sure it's not seasoned meat.
13) definitely watch the the flyers, and you can usually see the rest
of the flyers online (the ones that don't get delivered to your house,
but are only a short drive away).
14) *** hands down, the bulk of my best deals have been marked down
meat at regular grocery stores. They reduce it the day before it is
going to expire, and I go as early as I can to get it before it is
gone.
15) tell friends and relatives who hunt and fish that you want first
dibs on any body parts they don't. You can probably get at least the
organs and maybe the head. Also ask them to put you in touch with
their other friends who hunt and fish.
16) a great tip I learned here a while back â€" some restaurants
throw out things they don't use, like the organs that come inside
whole poultry, or raw meat that falls on the floor. see if they'll
save them for you. Find somebody who knows somebody who works there.
17) farmer's markets are great, but pick and choose carefully for the
best bargains. and sometimes at the end of the day some vendors will
reduce their prices, cause they don't want to take it back with them.
18) some people contact taxidermists, who have no use for the meat.
19) find people on this list from your vicinity, and ask them where
they get their meat deals. Join other raw feeding lists (there are
many), and ask if there are other raw feeders in your area.
20) tell your butcher you want the meat that they would normally
throw out, that is almost out of date, that people ordered and didn't
pick up, stuff that was dropped on the floor, their freezer
cleanouts, and parts that don't sell (like trachea, lungs, spleen,
etc.). Some butchers will save their trim for you (once they get to
know you). Build a relationship with them first.
21) yes, roadkill works too (where it is legal). In some places you
can get your name on the list and get called when they have large
roadkill (like deer)
22) you can raise your own meat/poultry if you have the room
23) post a message in CarnivoreFeed-Supplier or CFS-Canada if you are
in North America:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CFS-Canada/
24) speak to local farmers
25) also look for heart, tongue, and gizzards which count as meat (as
opposed to organ) in the world of raw feeding, but are often cheaper
than other muscle meats
26) find somebody who knows somebody who works at the grocery store.
They can introduce you to the meat guy, who may become more willing
to save stuff for you or reduce items about to expire, once they know
you.
27) check the internet. Some suppliers have affordable prices, even
after shipping costs are calculated.

Lis

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

btw, I made a list of organs - I seem to always be forgetting what to
look for, when I want to search for some variety - its by no means an
exhaustive list; Edible animal organs; liver, heart, cheek meat, head
meat, salivary glands, feet, lips,
oxtail, spleen, tongue, weasand meat (esophagus), tripe, stomach,
sweetbread (thymus & pancreas), ears, kidneys, brain, tripe, snouts
and poultry giblets - heart, liver, gizzard.
Heads, with all the ‘stuff’, including eyes.
offal - viscera and trimmings of a butchered animal often considered
inedible by humans.

> Thanks, Chris and Olga!!
>
> I do feed a bit of variety . . . I haven't been raw feeding long, so
it's mostly chicken . . . but
> I have fed a little pork and a little beef also . . . oh, and lamb.
>
> I was just curious about what they NEED to eat. I'm obviously over
complicating!!
>
> I usually buy whole cut up chickens, or whole chickens and ask the
butcher to cut in half
> and quarters for me (I feed dogs of different sizes . . . my Goldens
get about 2 pounds of
> meat a day, my Border Collie/Aussie mix gets a little over a pounds,
and my Schipperke
> gets a little under a quarter pound . . . I alternate or split who
gets the "goodies" inside . . .
> (and, if they're on sale, I buy boneless chicken). and, like I
said, sometimes lamb or beef
> or pork with their chicken.
>
> I just can't help worrying that I'm "missing" something . . .
something that could be given
> with another meat source . . .
>
> ...katie
>
> >
> > Feeding as many chicken parts as possible plus beef heart (or pork or
> > lamb or buffalo, etc.) is about the simplest variety to seek. Adding
> > pork is a good step forward. Adding another red meat or fish is a
> > step again. Each new variety adds a bit of something here, a tad
> > more of something there.
> >
> > That say, a diet of chicken ala chicken will suffice if that's all
> > you've got to offer...at least for a while. Just feed as much of the
> > chicken as you can. And keep your eyes peeled for opportunity.
> > Chris O
> >
>

Messages in this topic (75)
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2a. Re: maybe slight constipation
Posted by: "esmolensky" esmolensky@yahoo.com esmolensky
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:13 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: TRIM YOUR MESSAGES PLEASE.***

Actually it's brown amd extremely minimal comparing to before.
When he was on kibble, I thought I had an elephant instead of a dog.
E & Reagan
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com>
> To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 11:23:15 AM
> Subject: Re: [rawfeeding] maybe slight constipation
>
> >I've been feeding my 6.5mos/80# BB half chicken for 4 days.Past
couple days he seems >to look constipated especially today.
>
> Hi, kibblefed dog poo without any strain and come out easy because
poo is mushy side,but rawfed dog,I think does have more firmer side
poo and it gets out with some straining(i read this actually helps
for anal grand problems for this bit of straining to poo).
>
> To those who juststarted, this act may look like constipated
but,sometimes, it is normal.
>
> if thedog had squatted to poo and the poo did not come out at
all,or if the dog
> squatting so so long to get the poo coming out,or dog goes out to
poo and squat but no luck pooing and try pooing zillions of times a
day,I say it is constipated. Otherwise,normal, I think.

Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Re: Hello! New here...
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:14 pm ((PDT))

Steph,
What a wonderful person you are for taking these nice animals into your heart!
Go to www.rawmeatybones.com and you can get the info online for how to start, but go in both feet first, don't worry, it will work better that way.
For the one with no teeth, you can grind the food for it, like the chicken with the bone, that way he still gets the nutrients from the bones too. Which he needs. (bless his little hungry heart) For meaty stuff we usually want you to think big hunks of stuff, but for him, you could just get ground meat already, since bone needs to only be about 10% of the diet, you could even get powder form for him, some others will chime in on the best way to do that.
Start with one meat source for several weeks, and some organ meats, you can grind those too. Chicken is always the cheapest, and I have a meat grinder I got at a rest, supply for about $75 a while back, it grinds the whole chicken, that I cut up first. Skin is good too, for his skin, and it will help keep his skin moist too. Use the whole bird. That is the easiest way to start. Read the book online by Tom Lonsdale, at the site I gave you, and it will help explain everything for you, and for your new owner too.
On the cat, they are harder, need more research, must always leave food out for them during the transition, it's a health issue, but leave it where the dogs can't get it. You'll have to get help online at a cat chat for that, mine is refusing to go raw, we're still fighting him on that, it's a work in progress. I'm sure you'll do way better than we are doing here.;)
Sounds like you are off to a great start. Keep it up, you'll do great, let us know how it goes.
Jeni

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Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. Re: Words of caution
Posted by: "Joseph" scarfinger68@yahoo.com scarfinger68
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:15 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: TRIM YOUR MESSAGES. ***

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Swanson" <laurie@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Joe,
>
> I've been through a few similar situations w/my Boston. He still
> gulps some big hunks, but has gotten much better (slower and not so
> stupid) after almost a year of feeding prey model. And of course,
> dogs don't chew like we do, so part of it is something we have to
get
> used to. You're right, with these kinds of eaters, we especially
> need to feed bigger. I've learned a lot about why that works--
you'll
> probably find several past posts of mine and others during my
> learning process under "gulping" or "gulpers" if you want to search
> the archives. If you have pieces that are just the right size for
> one big gulp, you can chop them up, too. But better is to feed
> bigger when you can.
>
> What about pork rib slabs (not the country style ones)? Pigs'
feet,
> or big pork necks? Bone-in lamb? Turkey? You can mix proteins--
> like boneless pork w/a chicken leg, or alternate a boneless meal
w/a
> boney one.
>
> Laurie
>
Thanks for the post Laurie.

I bought a pork shoulder today. $2.29/lb. I know she isn't going to
chock on that and guess what... Its got some bone in it. :)

I did put a couple of slits in the meat so she could grab on better.
(She lost 2 bably canines). ""There goes human messing with the meat
again"" She probably didn't need me to put slits in it but I did any
ways. Gave she was done eating in like 30 or 35 minutes so i put in
away for the next days meal.

I havn't tried the pork neck yet only becuase it was king of
expensive. Groecery stores are to small and meat place I can get a
whole one but it must wieght a lot because (if i recall right) it was
like 40$ for the whole thing. But as one suggested I may get it and
cut it up into steaks and or sizes that work for my dog.

I usually feed one meat source for around a week or so... except for
the organ meat which may be from a different animal type. Maybe I
will try and mix it up a little more. I just didn't want to offer
her to much variety and make a picky eater out of her. YOU WILL eat
waht I give you and like it!! :) lol.

Thanks again, Joe Stokes Toledo, ohio

Messages in this topic (8)
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5a. Re: I must be doing something right!!! You guys are INCREDIBLE!!!
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:17 pm ((PDT))

How cool is that! Great to hear good news, keep it up, and glad you are enjoying the benefits:)
Jeni
Now, go get him a NEW toy:)

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Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: New to raw...diarrhea...but not giving up! =)
Posted by: "Joseph" scarfinger68@yahoo.com scarfinger68
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:19 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Cori,
>
> You didn't do anything wrong by switching quickly. Sounds like they
are
> doing fine. Soft stools are really no big deal! :)
>
I agree. Being new to RAW I was on the POOP watch everyday thinking..
To much bone? to much meat? to much organ? Its kind of funny how into
the poop I was ( and still am just not quite as anymore).

The main thing was to much organ meats I was finding out.

I give organ meat in small amounts about once every 3 days. i ahve a
15lb dog so its around a thumbnail or 2 thumnail size portions with her
meal.

Joe stokes, ohio

Messages in this topic (7)
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7a. Re: Should I be worried?
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:33 pm ((PDT))

Carolyn,
How do you know he had this going on for a while? And how long? And yes, I would be a little worried. It is probably not diet related though, I would still go to the vet, and take a stool sample with you. You'll need to feed him to get that.
Just for grins and giggles, how long on the raw diet, what are you feeding regularly, and how long ago did this happen before, and what did you do about it then?
Jeni

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Messages in this topic (13)
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7b. Re: Should I be worried?
Posted by: "tobyfwest" tobyfwest@cox.net tobyfwest
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:41 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, John and Jeni Blackmon
<jonjeni777@...> wrote:
>
> > How do you know he had this going on for a while? And how long? >
Just for grins and giggles, how long on the raw diet, what are you
feeding regularly, and how long ago did this happen before, and what
did you do about it then?

He'd had at least 1 bloody stool before I noticed what was going on.
He's been on a raw diet for about 3 years - I feed chicken, beef, pork,
lamb mostly, other stuff when I can get it. Last time it happened it
was about a 12 hour thing and then gone and it was about a year ago,
maybe more. It seems to be easing up - he made it about 5 hours last
evening in crate while I was gone and only went out once overnight and
what was coming out of him was much less. I'm giving him some rice
this morning.

Carolyn

Messages in this topic (13)
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8a. Re: Mucousy poop;Is this from too much treats??
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:37 pm ((PDT))

Hi,everyone.. Palettewoke me up ..it is 2am with whining from crate bed..

I just took palette out forpotty and immediately she did poo..

Now I suspect Duck.even though when I fed Duck neck had no poo problems.I removed all skin except 3 thumb nail size thinner skin that I could not get it off,andI fed Duck .

I gave probiotic with Duck as well. That probiotic usually help her poo problems right away but this is looking quite bad.

Didn't happen like this when I fed lamb..which she had poo problems..

Her poo was brown watery poo.Clear water from butt to brown watery poo is..improving?Or is it getting worse?

Never had this bad before..

If I keep feeding it,she get used to Duck?

I know Duck was not enhanced so,it is not enhancing problems either.

I should haveorder SEP when I saw the link here.. I think I order tomorrow..

I don't think probiotic was bad (kept in fridge after opening)but it be good idea to keep something known to help good as well..

Well, I go back to sleep but now I need to think what to do next..

Neighbor's doggy treats affect this bad??

yassy

---------------------------------
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.

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Messages in this topic (9)
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9a. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
Posted by: "pelirojita" kerrymurray7@gmail.com pelirojita
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:02 am ((PDT))

-
> I just wanted to know if there are any other vegetarians
> > out there and how they were able to get past dealing with raw meat.
> The

> Hi, Rhonda. Just another vegetarian(almost vegan) who feeds my puppy
> (21 weeks old) raw. Can't help you with the sick part, but I can tell
> you I suck it up and cut chickens in half, and other meats into big
> hunks. Yuk! I want to puke sometimes, but I really, really believe
> it's the best for my dog. Just like I believe a plant based diet is
> best for us, a meat based diet is best for my little puppers. It is
> hard sometimes, but get as much knowledge as you can so you can keep
> telling yourself it's best for the dog!
>
> Anna
>
Hi Rhonda,

I too am a vegetarian (almost vegan) who has had an almost
animal-product-free kitchen for the last 6 years (except of course for
the very much alive dogs and parrots that regularly call our house
home). I switched my dogs to raw at the beginning of July. This list
is full of very experience raw feeders who have lots of great info to
offer. So keep posting your questions and concerns. I don't qualify
as experienced but can tell you what I do to get through the whole
icky meat-handling experience

1 - I bought a set of good kitchen shears (per recommendation on this
list). I find cutting up the meat (when necessary - learn about
feeding "big") with shears to require much less handling then with
knives. I dedicate a set of shears to the dogs' food and do NOT use
them for anything else regardless of how many times they go through
the dishwasher.

2 - I feed "big" (for my dog who will eat "big" - the other requires
appropriate portions cut with previously mentioned shears...) I suck
it up the 30-60 seconds it takes me to cut a chicken out of its
plastic packaging, squeeze the giblets into the body cavity, then feed
the whole thing to the dog outside. He eats his fill. I scoop the
leftovers pack in to his dish (can often do this without even touching
them by using a plastic bag or stick or whatever is handy), not
worrying about the gravel, leaves or anything else that has gotten
stuck to it, wrap it well in either cling wrap and refrigerate for the
next day. I can often get 5 days worth of feeding out of one chicken
for one of my dogs (usually feeding him every other day to space it
out and let him eat his fill). Thus significantly reducing how often
and to what extent I handle the meat.

3 - I have found that as time progresses, I am less and less
squeamish, get more and more resourceful in minimizing my contact.
Having two thrilled dogs practically doing backflips while I get the
food ready is pretty good motivation. Find out what you need to
accommodate both your dog's age and her health issues (I'm dealing
with generally healthy, adult dogs), then jump in tweaking your method
as you go.

4 - As an ethical vegetarian, I look for ethically raised meats - I
shop at Trader Joe's and buy free-range chickens for 1.69 lb. At
Sunflower Market (a local health food store with prices significantly
lower then Whole Foods/Wild Oats) I can get certain cuts of
hormone-free beef and pork for under $2/lb. At my Community Supported
Agricultural (CSA) group I can get grass-fed, ethically raised beef
tongue, beef heart and the occasional additional "parts" for $1/lb, as
well as appropriately fed chicken. A grass-fed beef supplier at my
local Farmer's Market brings all sorts of trim for me for $3.00/lb (my
splurge...), she even invited my toddler son, myself and my dogs to
her ranch for a pasture party. Now, I do know the Dennis Miller joke
about "free-range" chickens being just as dead as any other that ends
up on a plate or in a dog's bowl, but all the things above make me
feel better about my choices.

I have just joined a local rawfeeding co-op and we'll see what arises
from that (I have yet to make a purchase due to the size of the orders
and my lack of freezer space, I found the co-op on the
CarnivoreSupplier list that is a sister to this one). I haven't added
a new protein lately and need to branch out, but know a few
bow-hunters who are going to be willing to share real soon.

I find that the prey-model diet makes a lot of sense with my values as
nothing goes to waste. The dogs are happy to have whatever parts that
would normally not be considered appropriate for human consumption.
My hunter friends are enjoying my new change-of-heart about their
passion (actually they are teasing me mercilessly, but then they have
promised free meat, so I'll take it...) and are happy to have a
destination for what they would normally throw out.

Once you have the health issues straight for your girl, jump on in.
You will find your groove and it does get easier and faster. People
hear are quite happy to hold your hand in the process. Your dog will
thank you for it.

Best of luck,
Kerry
Tucson,AZ

Messages in this topic (6)
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10a. Horrendous conflict of interests in VMAs
Posted by: "ptmagi" ptmagi@gmail.com ptmagi
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:03 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Olga" <olga.drozd@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Deb,
> Now I'm far from a conspiracy theorist, but I went to the CVMA website
> and right on their front page is the Hills/Science Diet logo. Do you
> suppose they may be just a little bit biased? ;)

Well, I apologize for answering the same post twice, but I went to the
CVMA myself after reading through the rest of the posts from the past
24 hours (GEEZ this is an active list!) and was really disgusted to
find that Hills and Fort Dodge Animal Health are their biggest
benefactors. And who might "Fort Dodge Animal Health" be, you ask? A
division of Wyeth Pharmaceuticals, which "currently ranks first in
veterinary vaccine sales in North America."

There oughta be a law. Sigh.

Deb in CO

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11. Fantastic Score!!!
Posted by: "irwin_bird" iamentropygirl@gmail.com irwin_bird
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:05 am ((PDT))

My housemate who is a chef is catering for a big wedding tomorrow at
which the guests are eating "squab" (some sort of bird, bigger than a
quail smaller than a game hen apparently) anyway they come with heads,
guts and feet attached....which all has to be removed before cooking.

and he is giving it all to me (well to the cat and dog really) thats
120 tiny little bird heads!!! plus guts and feet all free.

so how many little heads are too many per day? the feet and guts I'll
package up for feetsicles and organ additions to bigger meals but I'd
like to feed through the heads as quick as possible. I don't mind
moving a bag of heads to get to the ice cream but I'm not so sure
about the rest of the house, I don't want to jeopardize the raw
feeding revolution...

The pup is big enough to easily handle say a whole lambs head so I
figure he could eat a lot of bird heads to equal all the "heady
goodness" in a lamb but I wanted to check that there wasn't a rule
about heads for some reason...

Blaze pretty much has a cast iron stomach so I'm not worried about err
poo issues and the cat probably won't consent to even eat one.

TIA
Lindsay (and Blaze who's never eaten a head before)

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12. OT: Vaccinations
Posted by: "ptmagi" ptmagi@gmail.com ptmagi
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:05 am ((PDT))

I apologize if this is completely off-topic, but I think I recall
seeing some info in the "new member messages" about vaccinations and
the damage they can cause, and links to info for homeopathic remedies
for same. (Though I joined a couple of other raw-feed/carnivore
lists on the same day, so it may have been from one of those.)

I fall firmly into the anti-vaccination camp for people, as my son
contracted a really debilitating, chronic disease when he was in high
school that, after much research, I came to believe was probably
caused by childhood vaccinations. Traditional/allopathic pracitioners
were utterly stumped by not only his disease (they couldn't even
identify it, though a friend of mine who is an RN came up with a
diagnosis after a couple of hours on the internet) let alone cure it.
Instead, they threw drugs at the symptoms. Long story short, we
finally turned to alternative meds and he was finally 95% cured with a
combination of homeopathy, acupuncture and herbal remedies. Then he
gets accepted to the university of his choice and found he had NO
CHOICE but to get the Hep B vaccine that I had refused when he was
younger. Arrrgggh.

Which brings me to my question: What vaccines are we allowed to
refuse for our pets, and what limitations/restrictions can be forced
on our pets for us doing so? Atticus is due for his final round of
vaccines a week from tomorrow. I spent untold hours over several
weeks looking for answers when my son's health went downhill and I
have such an insanely busy schedule for the next week that the amount
of time I can spend researching this is going to be really limited.
I'm going to do a quick search of this forum on the topic now, but
thus far I'm finding that can be pretty cumbersome and time-consuming
and it's 3:30 am now, so any help anyone can give me would be greatly
appreciated.

Thanks,
Deb in CO

Messages in this topic (1)
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13a. Pork ribs and choking
Posted by: "ptmagi" ptmagi@gmail.com ptmagi
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:06 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Olga" <olga.drozd@...> wrote:

> If you want to try pork, I usually suggest pork ribs (be sure to feed
> multiple ribs attached together, not singletons)
>
> Olga
>

Okay, I've read this comment several times now and am really confused.
My understanding is that this is because single ribs are too small
and there's increased danger of ingesting bone shards. But once
they've chowed down to the last of a bunch of multiple ribs, they've
got a singleton anyway, right? See why I'm confused?

So far I've just fed chicken leg quarters, but for this reason I get
really nervous when Atticus gets down the the last hunk of it,
worrying that he's going to try to swallow too large a chunk (which
he's tried, but so far he hasn't taken it down his throat far enough
that he can't hoark it up). (Yeah, I know "hoark" isn't a word, but
it seems perfectly onomatopoetic!)

Which brings up another question: I understand also about not leaving
a dog at home alone with any bones. But I also wonder if being there
is enough... If I would actually be able to jump in and get a meaty
piece of bone that he was choking on out of his throat. Honestly, the
idea scares the bejeezus outta me.

Deb in CO

Messages in this topic (5)
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14a. Re: Infections and pancreatitis
Posted by: "ptmagi" ptmagi@gmail.com ptmagi
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:08 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Linda H. Gower <pudeltime@...> wrote:

> Vet Tech schools pretty much rank right up there with vet schools on
how much nutrition is taught. We had one course hour - sponsored by
Hills - you can imagine where that got us.
>

Thanks for weighing in, Linda. I did google "Vet Tech Degree
Requirements" as Carol suggested and it was quite the eye-opener. I
only found about a half-dozen sites that showed the actual courses
required, but of those, only one included any nutrition courses at
all. (Interestingly, it's the voc-tech school right here in my town,
and the one where the tech who my son talked to probably went, but
that was over 20 years ago, so....)

Thanks to everyone else who responded with encouragement and
reassurance... Sandee, Michael... gosh, too many to remember, but it's
much appreciated.

Deb in CO

Messages in this topic (12)
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14b. Re: Infections and pancreatitis
Posted by: "ptmagi" ptmagi@gmail.com ptmagi
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:10 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Olga" <olga.drozd@...> wrote:

> Now I'm far from a conspiracy theorist, but I went to the CVMA website
> and right on their front page is the Hills/Science Diet logo. Do you
> suppose they may be just a little bit biased? ;)

> Olga

Wow. Nice little bit of detective work, Olga! (Geez, why didn't I
think to check there?)

Thanks for sharing your experiences, too.

Deb in CO

Messages in this topic (12)
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15a. Re: to Catherine on feeding toothless pit bull
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:47 am ((PDT))

+++++++Mod note: please sign all emails ++++++++++++++

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Morledzep@... wrote:
> Steph,
>
> don't sell that pit bull short.. i'll bet money he will find a way
to bite
> what needs to be bitten.. lol.
>
>
> Let that toothless pit bull have a nice chicken leg quarter or a
bone-in
> chicken breast and see how he does.. you might be amazed. He may
not be able to
> eat the hunkier meats, or tough stuff like pork skin though.
>
> Catherine R.
>
>
>
> **************************************

Wouldn't I have to worry about him choking on the bones if they
weren't ground for him? Since he was starving when I got him (he
weighed only 20 lbs and now weighs about 50, just to give you an
idea), he tends to "wolf" (pardon the pun) his food down. I would
be afraid he would not try hard enough to chew the bones. Or that
he wouldn't be able to. He has strong jaws, just no teeth to crush.

An additional question. The other two dogs weigh 55 and 65 lbs, and
the cat weighs a little over 9 lbs. Should I feed the dogs a
quarter chicken per meal or a half chicken? I know they don't eat
much kibble throughout the day, and they are not wolfers. They eat
slowly and relaxed. Not worried about them breaking down the bones
at all. My pit can crack a large ham bone in half within 20 minutes
or so. I give them bones all the time as treats, but never as meals.

Messages in this topic (4)
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