[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11945

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Mammoth size knuckle bones?
From: Sandee Lee

2a. Re: [Raw Feeding] Thank you for the encouragement and advice!!!
From: Giselle

3a. Re: New to Group and Raw-Feeding Experience
From: Peggy

4a. Re: turkey legs
From: Michael Moore

5a. HUGE PROBLEM!!! I need all of the help I can get!!!
From: Peggy
5b. Re: HUGE PROBLEM!!! I need all of the help I can get!!!
From: Morledzep@aol.com
5c. Re: HUGE PROBLEM!!! I need all of the help I can get!!!
From: Casey Post
5d. Re: HUGE PROBLEM!!! I need all of the help I can get!!!
From: katkellm
5e. Re: HUGE PROBLEM!!! I need all of the help I can get!!!
From: Cathy Tweeddale Mitchell
5f. Re: HUGE PROBLEM!!! I need all of the help I can get!!!
From: Michelle Crawford

6a. Re: feeding heads/eating teeth
From: katkellm

7a. Re: Words of caution
From: Michelle Morgan
7b. Re: Words of caution
From: Laurie Swanson
7c. Re: Words of caution
From: Joseph
7d. Re: Words of caution
From: Laurie Swanson

8a. Re: Infections and pancreatitis
From: Casey Post
8b. Re: Infections and pancreatitis
From: chaparraltrail

9a. Re: Venison Organs/Parts & First Rawfed litter
From: linoleum5017

10. maybe slight constipation
From: esmolensky

11.1. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: chaparraltrail

12a. chicken broth
From: esmolensky
12b. Re: chicken broth
From: Morledzep@aol.com
12c. Re: chicken broth
From: Laurie Swanson

13.1. new to raw
From: Mary Lee

14. Pork rib slab
From: URSULA

Messages
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1a. Re: Mammoth size knuckle bones?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:05 pm ((PDT))

Brandi,

It's not so much the flavoring that is the problem...it's the hardness of
the bones which cause tooth damage. I'd get rid of them!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Brandi Bryant" <bbryant573@gmail.com>

> You know those big mammoth size knuckle bones, I bought 2 of them for
> my GS adults before I start the RAW diet and I'm thinking that with
> the meat or dried "flavoring" that's on it won't be good for them. Am
> I correct in my thinking? That I should not give these to my dogs,
> should I donate them to the SPCA or ARF?

Messages in this topic (2)
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2a. Re: [Raw Feeding] Thank you for the encouragement and advice!!!
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:20 pm ((PDT))

Go, Brandi!!!!
YVW, glad to help.
Stay in touch!
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Well, I went shopping. Didn't come home with what I had planned but I
> think I did pretty good. <snip>
>
> I just want to thank you to all of those that gave me advice and
> encouragement. I'm starting to feel more relaxed with feeding raw to
> my dogs. I appreciate you all more then you know!!
>
>
> You guys are the BEST!!!!
> --
> Brandi
> Bartlesville, Ok
> www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: New to Group and Raw-Feeding Experience
Posted by: "Peggy" peggy070605@sbcglobal.net speakingforfurry
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:23 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "delcaste" <delcaste@...> wrote:
>
> Also, did anyone else feel as if they were going to
> > vomit the first time they fed their dogs raw food? I felt so
grossed
> > out, eck. My hubby was just fine with it , but not me. Ew. Maybe
> it'll
> > be better tomorrow. =)
>
> Hi there, well not vomit but certainly very anxious. I even took the
> food away from them before they finished (they just took a few bites,
> actually), lol. I was also sweating thinking that my dogs
couldn't "do"
> this diet. Too hard-core. But not vomit.
>
> Silvina
>
Hi!

Well, as I guessed, the next day (today) was in fact better! It wasn't
as much as a big deal, I didn't feel as nauseous/anxious as the 1st
day. Which is great, that means tomorrow will be even better! Are you
okay now, also?

~Peg

Messages in this topic (10)
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4a. Re: turkey legs
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:23 pm ((PDT))

>>I have been making patties according to BARF ratios and am just introducing whole pieces. My dog has eaten plenty of chicken parts and now we're moving to turkey this week. She's been eating raw about three weeks now. I was going to feed the leg as one meal and the patty as another but you are saying that a leg is not enough meat? What part(s) would be enough to give to her as a meal?<<

Jen -- depending on the size of your dog (couldn't find that info, sorry), a turkey leg might be a fine and dandy sized meal. What concerns me in here is the BARF ratio patties; this list promotes (and strongly believes in!) a prey model, whole foods diet. No patties, no veggies, no fruits -- just meat, more meat, a little bone and some organs. Ditch those patties -- quit making more work for yourself, and feed your dog big, meaty pieces of stuff -- be it turkey, chicken, pork, beef, whatever.

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (25)
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5a. HUGE PROBLEM!!! I need all of the help I can get!!!
Posted by: "Peggy" peggy070605@sbcglobal.net speakingforfurry
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:24 pm ((PDT))

++++Mod note: please sign all emails +++++++++++++

Okay, so I just started both of my puppies on raw food Tuesday morning.
They both absolutely love it, and I love that they do! However, all of
a sudden, my house-trained 7 month old lab decides it's now a good time
to urinate on my leather couch, COFFEE TABLE (I dunno HOW he managed
that one), my bed, my carpeted stairs, AND my kitchen floor. My husband
swears up and down it's because of the new diet, which is the only
recent change. Has anyone else had this problem? I really don't want to
take him off of the diet, but I also don't want to sit, sleep, and walk
in urine! My other pup is also having the same problem, however not as
bad as the dog I've had longer. She urinated on my floor today as well.
So again, has anyone else experienced this? PLEASE HELP!!!

Messages in this topic (6)
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5b. Re: HUGE PROBLEM!!! I need all of the help I can get!!!
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:27 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/22/2007 8:24:24 PM Pacific Standard Time,
peggy070605@sbcglobal.net writes:

My husband
swears up and down it's because of the new diet, which is the only
recent change. Has anyone else had this problem? I really don't want to
take him off of the diet, but I also don't want to sit, sleep, and walk
in urine!

****this is a TRAINING issue, not a diet issue.. it has NOTHING to do with
what you're feeding..

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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5c. Re: HUGE PROBLEM!!! I need all of the help I can get!!!
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:37 pm ((PDT))

>Has anyone else had this problem? I really don't want to
> take him off of the diet, but I also don't want to sit, sleep, and walk
> in urine! My other pup is also having the same problem, however not as
> bad as the dog I've had longer. She urinated on my floor today as well.
> So again, has anyone else experienced this?

If it were one dog, my first thoughts would be UTI or food sensitivity. I
have some experience with a cat who is sensitive to chicken and when he eats
it, he starts marking EVERYTHING - weird, but true. He just doesn't get
chicken in his rotation anymore, that's all.

But there are two dogs involved, so now I'm going to have to ask - what
EXACTLY are you feeding and was it *enhanced* at all.

Casey

Messages in this topic (6)
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5d. Re: HUGE PROBLEM!!! I need all of the help I can get!!!
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:54 pm ((PDT))

Do you feed inside? I feed outside and my male dog always pees on the
ground where he eats and then proceeds to pee on the spots on the
ground where the other two ate. So, i'm thinkin that maybe, because
raw food has a higher value to a dog than kibble, that maybe he is
trying to mark off his feeding territory to keep/hide his food from
an imagined invasion by another pack of pups and that your other dog
has decided that maybe a little help is necessary. If thats the case,
i think that it is a new training issue that can be easily resolved by
you in a couple of days. Unless you are feeding meat that is enhanced
with something, i don't believe that it is the result of the contents
of a raw diet.
KathyM

Messages in this topic (6)
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5e. Re: HUGE PROBLEM!!! I need all of the help I can get!!!
Posted by: "Cathy Tweeddale Mitchell" duckndogs@telus.net duckndog
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:56 pm ((PDT))

Two questions.

How old is the second pup?

Are they crated/contained when not under supervision?

I breed/raise Labradors and I have to tell you that I would never allow my 7 month old to have free access to the house without supervision. In fact, I hesitate
to call them completely housetrained at this age.

I highly doubt it's the food. I would probably guess UTI for one of them and maybe marking for the other.

Cathy

Duckndogs Labrador Retrievers
Guaranteed to Retrieve Your Heart!
www.duckndogs.net

Messages in this topic (6)
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5f. Re: HUGE PROBLEM!!! I need all of the help I can get!!!
Posted by: "Michelle Crawford" workingdawgs@yahoo.com workingdawgs
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:31 pm ((PDT))

How old are these two pups? As other people mentioned, this really sounds like a behavioral issue or it could be related to the new diet only because a raw diet is much higher in moisture and if they have not cut back on their water intake, they may be overloading on water which could be why they are suddenly urinating in the house.

Michelle

GSD vonGestalt (CKC reg'd.)
Home of Feldberg's Fast and Furious, CD TT
Feldberg's Jeepers A Jaguar
PeakesBrook Orbit vonGestalt *** available on co-ownership***
gsdvongestalt@shaw.ca

http://members.shaw.ca/gsdvongestalt/

---------------------------------
Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.

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Messages in this topic (6)
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6a. Re: feeding heads/eating teeth
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:24 pm ((PDT))

Hi Laurie,
My dogs are bigger than your pup, and they never eat the bottom
jaw/teeth of a cow, but they eat the entire head of a pig or a lamb.
I have never had any trouble with them eating the teeth--actually i
guess i don't know for sure that they eat them, but my yard looks like
Death Valley after a cow meal, but is clean after pig or lamb.
KathyM

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Re: Words of caution
Posted by: "Michelle Morgan" enzo@whereismichelle.com enzoinub
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:30 pm ((PDT))

Dear Joe,

For smaller dogs, I suggest you try what I feed to our puppies: for
pork, a neck works well. Divide it between the vertebrae into "neck
steaks" with one intact neck bone in each....they cant swallow the neck
bone but they can eat the bone from the protrusions sticking out of
it...only the center bit that is harder is left behind by the small
guys.

For beef, you could probably get the soft cartilaginous rib ends from
the butcher for cheap, with some of the flap meat still attached.

Remember you dont have to feed bone every meal, its the
proportion "over time" that counts. It sounds to me like your dog can
handle much bigger items - which will reduce the scarfing and choking.
Small dogs can eat much bigger RMBs than you would believe. Our 8 week
old pups can eat beef ribs, and my friend's little Italian greyhounds
can too. If you feed a larger item like this, then it can be two or
three meals. Just pick it up when the dog is done eating and re-
refrigerate!

Cheers,
Michelle

<The problem I am having is finding bone to go with the pork. I have
> been using pig tails but they have a lot of fat. Otherwis I feed
> chicken, kidney, heart and pork. One in a while beef but its more
> expensive and I can't find meat/bone ratio that works for me.
>
> Joe Stokes, Ohio

Messages in this topic (7)
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7b. Re: Words of caution
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:49 pm ((PDT))

Hi Joe,

I've been through a few similar situations w/my Boston. He still
gulps some big hunks, but has gotten much better (slower and not so
stupid) after almost a year of feeding prey model. And of course,
dogs don't chew like we do, so part of it is something we have to get
used to. You're right, with these kinds of eaters, we especially
need to feed bigger. I've learned a lot about why that works--you'll
probably find several past posts of mine and others during my
learning process under "gulping" or "gulpers" if you want to search
the archives. If you have pieces that are just the right size for
one big gulp, you can chop them up, too. But better is to feed
bigger when you can.

What about pork rib slabs (not the country style ones)? Pigs' feet,
or big pork necks? Bone-in lamb? Turkey? You can mix proteins--
like boneless pork w/a chicken leg, or alternate a boneless meal w/a
boney one.

Laurie

Messages in this topic (7)
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7c. Re: Words of caution
Posted by: "Joseph" scarfinger68@yahoo.com scarfinger68
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:53 pm ((PDT))

Thanks for all the encouragement. I guess its because its my first dog
and my first RAW feeding for a dog. I just get a little worried taht I
may do something wrong. There is also the added pressure because not
very many people aggree wtih it so... if ..if ...if. Its my fault.
hehe.

Since I am here. This is her meals. Mainly once a day in the evening.

Chicken leg quarter amd or Split chicken breast(large meal)
chicken thigh and or chicken leg (small meal)
-sometimes thats it.
-sometimes any combination of LIVER/pork kidney/heart for organ meat.
-sometimes a Fish oil capsule.

THen i feed pork which I am still trying to get some kind of system
like the above chicken routine.

Thanks again for the encouragement.

Joe Stokes: Toledo, ohio

Messages in this topic (7)
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7d. Re: Words of caution
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:35 am ((PDT))

Joe,

That's a good start. I know it's hard to go against the grain.
That's what this group is for--to support each other. So don't be
afraid to ask for help.

How old is your dog?

I know you're trying to add variety, so the only other thing I'd say
is the chicken thigh (and leg, if you mean drumstick) is too small
for a gulper. If you need to feed a small meal, you could give her
something bigger and then remove it after she's eaten some. Or you
could feed something like an egg or two, or a Kong stuffed with
ground meat and then frozen, or some chopped boneless meat.

I'm kind of like you, wanting a system or routine, but it doesn't
seem to work very well! It's hard to have the "perfect meal" always
available. I think we have to cut ourselves some slack and remember
it balances out over time. :-)

Take care,

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph" <scarfinger68@...> wrote:
> Since I am here. This is her meals. Mainly once a day in the
evening.
>
> Chicken leg quarter amd or Split chicken breast(large meal)
> chicken thigh and or chicken leg (small meal)
> -sometimes thats it.
> -sometimes any combination of LIVER/pork kidney/heart for organ
meat.
> -sometimes a Fish oil capsule.
>
> THen i feed pork which I am still trying to get some kind of system
> like the above chicken routine.
>

Messages in this topic (7)
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8a. Re: Infections and pancreatitis
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:41 pm ((PDT))

> His first warning was that pancreatitis is much more prevalent in
> raw-fed dogs. I've been researching that today on the internet and
> haven't found anything to back it up. The only consensus seems to be
> that no one knows what causes it, but that high fat diets often
> accompany it.

Good on you. We've got 6+ years of raw in this household and no incidents
of pancreatitis - but as you say, it can happen to any dog who is
susceptible to such things, no matter what's being fed.

>
> His second warning was that feeding raw meet subjects the dog to lots
> of infections, and that because of this most vet clinics will only
> treat raw-fed dogs off-site (and at much greater expense), so as not
> to subject other patients to unnecessary risk. I find this really
> hard to believe, but also can't imagine this man is just out-and-out
> lying. Has anyone here run into this?

Whoa, this guy is KooKoo for Cocoa Puffs, isn't he? Subject to what kind of
infections and what kind of wonky vet tries to treat a rawfed dog off-site?
Ridiculous.

> Honestly, this last assertion of his makes me wonder if the guy is
> credible at all, and yet, with his background, SURELY he must have
> some credibility?!?!?

He's got opinions, but they don't hold up to the facts - I'd remember that
vets get VERY little nutritional training (and what they do get is brought
to them courtesy of the commercial dog food producers - vested interest,
anyone?), so I imagine that vet techs get even less - let's ask the vet
techs here what they think, eh?

Casey

Messages in this topic (7)
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8b. Re: Infections and pancreatitis
Posted by: "chaparraltrail" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:27 am ((PDT))

> > Honestly, this last assertion of his (VET TECH) makes me wonder if
the guy is
> > credible at all, and yet, with his background, SURELY he must have
> > some credibility?!?!?

Just because he has been to school, and has a solid professional &
educational background, does not mean he will use that knowledge
responsibly.

It is also no guarantee he will tell the truth.

Lori

Messages in this topic (7)
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9a. Re: Venison Organs/Parts & First Rawfed litter
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:51 pm ((PDT))

Laura,

That's terrific! What time should BoJ & I come over to join in the
feast? I can't definitively answer your questions, but I know all
those parts would be available in the wild. If a dog had whelped
without humans to feed her, and organ & 'parts' were admittedly edible
at the discretion of the dog, (not like we're force-feeding them,)
then perhaps it would be best to let the momma decide for herself,
much like the fish example you gave. She knows what she needs - God
programmed it into her. Weaning pups onto raw is in the archives, but
it follows much the same as any dog being introduced to rawfeeding.
OTOH, the pups will not have to 'undo' the k****e confusion, so
they're better off from the start!

Relax, knowing that by rawfeeding, you're giving more appropriate
nutrition than k***le any day of the week. Don't want those puppies or
their momma feeling tense, now, do we? Hmmmmm????? Read the posts,
and be encouraged.

Lynne

-- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "aqualitybeagles" <a-
qualitybeagles@...> wrote:
>
> Well, deer hunting season has begun again here in SC and we brought
> home our first deer tonight. I have the lungs, liver, heart,
kidneys, brain, eyes, shoulders, neck w/trachea, and the carcass

Also I now have my first rawfed litter here. Is there anything I
should NOT fed her while she's nursing? When should I offer meat to
the babies?

> Laura Peters

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10. maybe slight constipation
Posted by: "esmolensky" esmolensky@yahoo.com esmolensky
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:52 pm ((PDT))

Hi,
I've been feeding my 6.5mos/80# BB half chicken for 4 days.
The first day he had diarhea and past couple days he seems to look
constipated especially today. He pooped one poo out with some strain
and the other got stuck to his butt and didn't come out until he
started galloping, I couldn't stop laughing.
Those chickens were 4-4.5#ea. probably not enough for him. I just
bought some meaty quarters and 8# fryers at $.89.
Should i feed him twice a day instead or add more meat/or take out the
bone from the quarters?

Messages in this topic (1)
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11.1. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "chaparraltrail" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:31 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>
> Lori Poirier <chaparraltrail@> wrote:
> > The typical raw diet is higher in protein than the typical
kibble
> or canned food diet. The vet's perception about that is correct.
> *****
> I think you need to explain your terms.
*****

My terms are common English; the facts just are what they are.

> You don't want to provide
> numbers, then give me definitions. Let no assertion or assumption
go
> undefined.
*****

This is a list about raw feeding; if we each define such things as
kibble, the typical commercial diet, etc., in every post, it will
read like a dictionary, and lose functionality. Most people on this
list know what kibble and protein are.

> What do you mean? How simple can I say it?
*****

I mean what I said: raw is higher protein than most other feeding
options. The reason I keep responding to claims to the contrary, is
that I feel it would behoove all of us to present facts accurately,
whenever we are discussing these matters with our vets--or other
people who might be considering raw.

If we put forth wrong information (according to reporting standards
common to the profession), or fanatical rhetoric, we may lose
credibility, and be dismissed as part of an "extremist fringe," some
kind of a wing nut.

The evidence strongly supports raw feeding. Why not present the
evidence, to our vets and others, along with all the wonderful
anecdotal stories? There is no need to run from facts, or make
unsupported claims. The facts are on our side.

Using the format common to vets, where kibble is the "normal
standard," and percentages are computed without water weight, raw is
higher in protein than their "normal" kibble, and better for the
dog. Plus all the other good stuff we can throw in about raw.

We do not need to run away from the fact that raw food contains a
lot of good quality, easily digested protein. That's a GOOD thing...

Lori

Messages in this topic (42)
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12a. chicken broth
Posted by: "esmolensky" esmolensky@yahoo.com esmolensky
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:31 pm ((PDT))

++++Mod note: please sign all emails ++++++++++++++

Are whole frozen chickens with 20% chicken broth ok to feed. They are
$.69 per lb?

Messages in this topic (3)
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12b. Re: chicken broth
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:51 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/22/2007 10:32:18 PM Pacific Standard Time,
esmolensky@yahoo.com writes:

Are whole frozen chickens with 20% chicken broth ok to feed. They are
$.69 per lb?

****these are called "enhanced" and most folks recommend that you skip the
enhanced chickens and look for the "minimally processed" or "natural" chickens.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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12c. Re: chicken broth
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:35 am ((PDT))

They have added salt and possibly other unnatural ingredients, which is
not ideal. Some dogs are more sensitive to these things than others.
You can try it and see how your dogs do, but look to that if you have
any issues.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "esmolensky" <esmolensky@...> wrote:

> Are whole frozen chickens with 20% chicken broth ok to feed. They are
> $.69 per lb?
>

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13.1. new to raw
Posted by: "Mary Lee" machemlc@yahoo.com machemlc
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:27 am ((PDT))

I have a 10 lb Tzu. Only been "raw" for 1 week. She doesn't gulp and
took the chicken like she killed it herself. Her bm's have a lot of
mucus in them or nothing but mucus which is worrying my husband. He
wants her back on regular dog food. He also worrys that the bone she
eats will poke her intestines. I give her a bone-in-thigh one day and
part of a breast(no bone)the next (no skin & little fat). Can I tell
him this will change just give it time...is this normal? Thanks, Mary
Lee Cook

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14. Pork rib slab
Posted by: "URSULA" UCL@NEUF.FR ursula21c
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:27 am ((PDT))

I've been cutting the pork ribs to make individual ribs and I hand
feed to my small two lab/cross - do you think it is better if they are
given a slab each(about 5 or 8 ribs I think) so they can help
themselves? Is that too much or not enough? I have been feeding raw
since they were 7 weeks but the food I can get various from season to
season. At the moment it is lamb ribs but they are so fatty and very
little bone.
I am trying to give variety but beef is always available and they get
that everyday either as chunks or meat or muscle meat or beef heart
with turkey or chicken. The half chicken in the morning is the bone
part or the ribs as above which I would give for breakfast.
Still so much to learn and always trying to stop my husband giving
them tinned sardines with wholegrain rice when I am not around to see
it!!!
Many thanks
Ursula
Salies de Bearn - France

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