[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11947

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: What to do next? I am stuck on chicken and other problems.
From: Andrea
1b. Re: What to do next? I am stuck on chicken and other problems.
From: Shannon Hully
1c. Re: What to do next? I am stuck on chicken and other problems.
From: Olga

2a. Re: HUGE PROBLEM!!! I need all of the help I can get!!!
From: Andrea
2b. Re: HUGE PROBLEM!!! I need all of the help I can get!!!
From: Casey Post
2c. Re: HUGE PROBLEM!!! I need all of the help I can get!!!
From: gevan1a
2d. Re: HUGE PROBLEM!!! I need all of the help I can get!!!
From: Geri

3a. Re: Pork rib slab
From: Andrea
3b. Re: Pork rib slab
From: costrowski75

4.1. Re: new to raw
From: Andrea
4.2. Re: new to raw
From: Olga

5a. Re: Took the plunge--a few more questions
From: Andrea
5b. Re: Took the plunge--a few more questions
From: Olga

6a. Re: Infections and pancreatitis
From: Olga

7a. Peeing on spot where food was
From: Kim Kapes

8. Mucousy poop;Is this from too much treats??
From: Yasuko herron

9a. Re: Help-10 mo Dane to start on raw
From: karimlizette
9b. Re: Help-10 mo Dane to start on raw
From: costrowski75
9c. Re: Help-10 mo Dane to start on raw
From: karimlizette

10a. Re: maybe slight constipation
From: Yasuko herron

11a. need help trying to figure out what to feed
From: dcutler896
11b. Re: need help trying to figure out what to feed
From: rosey031801
11c. Re: need help trying to figure out what to feed
From: costrowski75
11d. Re: need help trying to figure out what to feed
From: Yasuko herron

12a. Re: Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
From: pelle567

Messages
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1a. Re: What to do next? I am stuck on chicken and other problems.
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:51 am ((PDT))

With my first dog I chose pork as his second protein. It's easy to
find and lots cheaper than beef around here. You can get pork picnic
roasts or boston butt roasts they are wonderfully meaty with a good
bone inside. You can get a slab of pork ribs or a meaty neck if you
can find it. Not those cut up neck bones you see packaged in the
grocery store, the uncut ones look like an L. Add the pork in slowly
to the chicken meals since pork is much fattier than chicken and you
don't want lots of loose stool.

Don't worry so much about bone percentages. Just make sure you are
feeding mostly meat and some bone. Go by your boy's stool to see
where you are on the bone. If his poo is crumbly and dry add more
meat. If it is too loose, add some more bone (either pork or chicken
will work).

Lamb ribs are a good meal, but might need some more meat on them.
Most lamb ribs I find have lots of fat and not so much meat.

> My dog has 3 hot spots now. Could it be from the raw?

Did he get hotspots before you switched? It is more likely fleas
that are causing it, but just in case you should check the chicken
you are feeding to make sure it isn't enhanced with some broth
solution. One of my dogs gets pretty itchy if I feed him enhanced
chicken.

For the fleas I would recomend using a food grade diatomaceous earth
(DE). You sprinkle it onto the dog's skin and rub it in. You can
also sprinkle it on your carpets before you vacuum. I don't find
fleas often, but it is pretty easy to apply to a shorthaired dog. A
long haired dog, well, that depends on how cooperative the dog is.
Another option I've heard of using is spritzing them with lemon
infused water. You boil some water, cut up a lemon very thin, and
let put the slices in the hot water. Cover and let steep overnight.
Then put it in a spray bottle and spritz the dog once a day, working
the solution down to the skin. That might help with the stinky dog
too (=. Hope that helps a bit.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (4)
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1b. Re: What to do next? I am stuck on chicken and other problems.
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:18 am ((PDT))

Well since mostly what you need is meat (and chickens have higher
bone content than 10%, btw. Neither here nor there, just means you
have some leeway on adding meat without bones.) you could continue to
give chicken for bones for now and just buy a lovely big piece of
boneless meat for the other meal. (You may want to start slowly
introducing a new type of meat, just give a bit with the chicken a
couple of times first to give his body time to adjust to it.)

As to whether or not your lamb ribs are rmbs or recreational depends
entirely on how much meat is on them.

Your dog has developped hotspots and fleas. This is likely because
of all of the accumulated junk in his system that he is finally
getting healthy enough for his body to deal with eliminating them.
It's like when a human adjusts their diet to be more appropriate,
their body starts to detox, which results in "symptoms" showing up
and going away on their own after a little while. When your body
isn't healthy enough to deal with a new problem it just waits, now
his body is getting healthier and is strong enough to handle the
tackling of this problem. Consider it a good sign.

Shannon H.

> I am ready to add a protien, but I am not sure what to buy next.
> What exactly do I buy? I am understanding the chicken feeding, but
I
> don't know exactly what to buy when you all say feed beef or lamb or
> turkey. I also get worried about the 10% bone vs. the percentage of
> meat. How do you tell if it is the correct percentage (the chicken
> is easy -- feed the whole thing over a few days). I have some lamb
> ribs--are lamb ribs a meal or recreational bone? What is a
> recreational bone as he does enjoy chewing for fun?
>
> I am uneasy about the raw and hope I am doing the right thing. It
> sounds great, but I am having a few problems. My dog has 3 hot
spots
> now. Could it be from the raw? I have been having a problem with
> fleas but I flea comb him several times a day and vaccum a lot. I
> keep him contained in my kitchen so as not to spread the fleas. I
> usually find none to maybe two so I know I am making headway. I am
> trying to deal with the fleas naturally as well as with the food
> naturally. What am I doing wrong? Hot spots, fleas, and he doesn't
> smell very good either. I am in the thick of it. Please help.
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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1c. Re: What to do next? I am stuck on chicken and other problems.
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:25 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "morkydzgrl" <ShankMa4@...> wrote:
> I am ready to add a protien, but I am not sure what to buy next.
> What exactly do I buy?

I went with turkey for a second protein, and then pork, but you could
do either of those. For turkey, buy a whole one and cut up like the
chicken, only you will get more pieces from it (so you may want to
freeze some of them once cut). And once you've fed all the pieces of
the turkey, you'll have a good amount of bone, so don't stress too
much over it.

If you want to try pork, I usually suggest pork ribs (be sure to feed
multiple ribs attached together, not singletons) or riblets (which are
the triangular piece at the end of the rib slab). I would probably
buy a pork picnic roast, or whatever other roast is cheap, and cut off
a handful to add to those ribs you'll be feeding. If you leave a good
amount of meat on the bone inside the picnic, you can feed that as yet
another meal.

Or if your dog will stop when he's full, you could just put down a
turkey or a pork roast and let him eat till he's had enough, and then
pick it up and put in the fridge. These are just ideas anyway, see
what you have available at the store and go from there.

Olga

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Re: HUGE PROBLEM!!! I need all of the help I can get!!!
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:01 am ((PDT))

I think the problem is that these are puppies and can't hold it for
very long in the first place. Unless you have a dog door I doubt they
have been taken outside to pee often enough. There's a whole lot more
water in the food that they are eating now and I think their little
bladders just weren't ready to hold it. Try taking them out for twice
as many potty breaks as usual and I'll bet the problem goes away. If
they have been urinating in the house while you are gone then you
should probably have them in their crates when you are not home until
they get better at holding it. I've never seen a dog decide to start
marking the house because it was raw fed. Hope you get the problem
sorted out before you all float away (=

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Peggy" <peggy070605@...> wrote:

> No, they're not crated anymore. We've had the male (Lab/Pit mix)
> since he was 6 weeks old, and he was crated then. Little by little,
> we let him out longer and longer, until we trusted him to be alone.

Messages in this topic (16)
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2b. Re: HUGE PROBLEM!!! I need all of the help I can get!!!
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:24 am ((PDT))

> On the fist day, I gave him a turkey leg, 3chicken leg quarters,
> (<all for breakfast) and ground beef (<For dinner). Then he urinated
> the following morning. I gave him 3 chicken leg quarters for
> breakfast, and ground beef mixed with veggies for dinner. (He only
> ate a little bit until way later on @ night.) So no, I didn't alter
> his food when he did that. The vegetables were "altered" so to speak,
> I made a veggie mix for him.

Ok, Peggy, let's look at simplifying things, here.

First off, get rid of the veggie mix - there are a few vegetables that act
as diurectics and some dogs are quite sensitive to that effect.

Next, let's choose a single protein source for a few days - whatever works
for you for now, chicken or turkey or whatever, but feed only that one
thing. If this is a food sensitivity (and with two dogs it's unlikely, but
hey, let's rule it out because we can easily do so at this stage), this is
the way to do it. If the urinating continues, switch to a different food,
but again, stick with only that one thing, no extras at all.

Casey

Messages in this topic (16)
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2c. Re: HUGE PROBLEM!!! I need all of the help I can get!!!
Posted by: "gevan1a" gevans@sycomtech.com gevan1a
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:53 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Casey Post" <mikken@...> wrote:
>
> > On the fist day, I gave him a turkey leg, 3chicken leg quarters,
> > (<all for breakfast) and ground beef (<For dinner). Then he urinated
> > the following morning. I gave him 3 chicken leg quarters for
> > breakfast, and ground beef mixed with veggies for dinner. (He only
> > ate a little bit until way later on @ night.) So no, I didn't alter
> > his food when he did that. The vegetables were "altered" so to
speak,
> > I made a veggie mix for him.
>

A couple of comments:

First - a turkey leg and 3 chicken leg quarters sounds like a lot of
food. I'm guessing that might be about 4 pounds! You should start with
2-3% of weight or expected adult weight and adjust from there as needed.

Second - When someone says enhanced or altered they are refering to
some chicken, turkey, pork & beef that has a self basting solution or
broth added. It should say so on the label or check the sodium content
if you thinnk it migt be enhanced - also cut the veggies.

-George

Messages in this topic (16)
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2d. Re: HUGE PROBLEM!!! I need all of the help I can get!!!
Posted by: "Geri" auntigeri@aol.com gericolloton
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:19 am ((PDT))

I have a spayed female chihuahua and a neutered male rat terrier. I
recently adopted both of them after my 2 elderly dogs passed away. I
also have an older cat.

I feed them in my kitchen (I have a tile floor so it is easy to clean
afterwards). After I started them on raw my female chihuahua would
mark her eating area right after she would finish eating. However the
male did not. After they were on the raw for a few weeks though she
pretty much stopped the marking. I think she just needed to feel
secure that no one would take her food away from her.

Geri

Messages in this topic (16)
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3a. Re: Pork rib slab
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:08 am ((PDT))

Ursula, I would leave the slabs whole for the pups. It is a lot more
engaging for them and more beneficial for their teeth. A whole slab
might be a big meal for a lab, but you can always make the next meal a
little smaller to make up for it.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "URSULA" <UCL@...> wrote:
>
> I've been cutting the pork ribs to make individual ribs and I hand
> feed to my small two lab/cross - do you think it is better if they
> are given a slab each(about 5 or 8 ribs I think) so they can help
> themselves? Is that too much or not enough?

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Pork rib slab
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:12 am ((PDT))

"URSULA" <UCL@...> wrote:
>
> I've been cutting the pork ribs to make individual ribs and I hand
> feed to my small two lab/cross - do you think it is better if they
are
> given a slab each(about 5 or 8 ribs I think) so they can help
> themselves? Is that too much or not enough?
*****
Oh yes please, give them several ribs in a slab! One pork rib is not
a meal, is hardly entertainment, offers little or no effort and may
be perceived as swallowable. When possible food should provide
exercise, entertainment and dental hygiene as well as nutrition.

I don't know if five or six ribs constitute "enough" for a meal but
they certainly will add complexity and amusement to your dogs'
lives. Not every meal has to be exactly to measure; if the meal-
worthiness of five or six ribs seems slight, you'll have every
opportunity to feed more food at the next meal or the one after that.

I have been feeding raw
> since they were 7 weeks but the food I can get various from season
to
> season.
*****
This lovely. Just as it's beneficial for us to shop seasonally for
ourselves, it's useful for our dogs as well.

At the moment it is lamb ribs but they are so fatty and very
> little bone.
*****
I am absolutely certain the "little bone" is plenty for your dogs.
Again, you ought not think meal-by-meal or day-to-day or even
weekly. You will have ample chance to feed "enough" bone as time
goes by. In fact, it's easy to feed enough bone. It's so easy that
most people feed way too much bone!

I regularly feed lamb breasts; sometimes they're more fatty and/or
meaty and/or bony, and sometimes they're less. I know my dogs can
handle them however they appear so "so fatty" is not an issue. If it
is an issue for your dogs and if you want to include lamb ribs in the
menu then you have to figure out a way. I think they're worth it,
myself.

> I am trying to give variety but beef is always available and they
get
> that everyday either as chunks or meat or muscle meat or beef heart
> with turkey or chicken. The half chicken in the morning is the bone
> part or the ribs as above which I would give for breakfast.
*****
Lamb, turkey, chicken and beef--with the occasional tinned sardine--
sounds pretty varied to me! I don't think it's necessary to divide
the day's food into a "bony meal" and a "meaty meal" (and feeding in
that fashion usually means the dog gets two small, uninvolving,
meals) but I understand that old habits die hard.

Perhaps you could reach a compromise with your husband. He can feed
the sardines but keep the yucky whole grain rice.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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4.1. Re: new to raw
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:22 am ((PDT))

Lee, sometimes newbie dogs do have some amount of mucous in their
stools. It takes a few days for the digestive juices to kick into gear
so that bone is completely digested. Until then, the body produces
some mucous to protect itself. Check to make sure you aren't
overfeeding her, too much food can cause loose stools too. Definitely
tell the hubby to relax for a little while and maybe tell him about all
the things in "dog food" that are inappropriate for your little
carnivore princess. If the mucousy poo doesn't seem to bother her it
should clear up as she gets used to the food.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Lee" <machemlc@...> wrote:
>
> I have a 10 lb Tzu. Only been "raw" for 1 week. She doesn't gulp and
> took the chicken like she killed it herself. Her bm's have a lot of
> mucus in them or nothing but mucus which is worrying my husband.

Messages in this topic (36)
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4.2. Re: new to raw
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:18 am ((PDT))

Yes, the mucous is just because her tummy is learning how to digest
this new stuff. It will go away once she's gotten used to raw.

And about the bones, my hubby told me the same thing. He said that
their insides are probably being punctured as we speak. Of course no
such thing happened, and now I catch him sometimes telling other
people about how raw food is natural and kibble is crap.

Just give it some time. :)

Olga

Messages in this topic (36)
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5a. Re: Took the plunge--a few more questions
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:53 am ((PDT))

Hey, JoAnn, glad Linus enjoyed his first raw meal. For the time
being, I'd keep feeding him twice a day so that you make sure his
stools are good and formed. At about six months some pups can eat
once a day, but some still get loose stools with all that food at
once. Once you both are comfortable with raw feeding you can migrate
towards once a day feedings if you would like. In the meantime, it
is a good idea to keep feeding times relatively random. If a rawfed
dog is used to eating every day at 4pm, his digestive juices start
pumping around 3:45 or so to get ready for the food. If food doesn't
arrive on time those digestive juices start irritating the stomach
and eventually get ejected in a nice foamy bile vomit. It's pretty
upsetting for us humans even though it doesn't seem to bother the
dogs. Keeping feeding times random avoids the problem.

> If I feed him twice is a leg quarter for one meal and
> then a boneless meal ok for the next?

During the first couple of weeks I've always fed bone in food, so I'm
not sure if a boneless meal would cause loose stool. In the long
run, a pm boneless meal would be fine.

> Are organ meats a once a week thing or more often?

Again, during the first few weeks, I skip organs all together. After
that, some people feed a little organ every day. My boys have iron
stomachs so they can have large hunks of organ at once without
getting loose stools. Somewhere in the middle is a good place to
start, so once a week sounds good.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: Took the plunge--a few more questions
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:21 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, JoAnn Ehlinger <jo11931@...> wrote:
> Since he is a pup and is still growing should I feed
> him twice a day?
I would probably keep with twice a day for a few more months.

> If I feed him twice is a leg quarter for one meal and
> then a boneless meal ok for the next?
That sounds like a good plan. Or you could feed two leg quarters. Or
mix-and-match. See how his stools are and adjust accordingly. :)

> Are organ meats a once a week thing or more often?
I usually do some liver once a week, and another organ (like kidney or
spleen) at another time during the week. Or I forget for a while and
then feed it more often. ;) It depends on how much of it you're
feeding. I definitely wouldn't do a whole meal as organs if that's
what you're asking.

Hold off on the organs for a couple of weeks though, don't want to
give too much variety too quickly. Those chicken quarters may have
little bits of organ on them, which is fine.

Olga

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6a. Re: Infections and pancreatitis
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:54 am ((PDT))

Hi Deb,

It sounds like not only is this guy trying to scare you, but he also
doesn't have his facts straight.

> His first warning was that pancreatitis is much more prevalent in
> raw-fed dogs.
We don't have any experience with pancreatitis, but I can tell you
that raw fat appears to be much easier to digest than cooked fat. A
little piece of ham trimmings after Thanksgiving would give my dogs
the runny-butts, but they are able to eat pork hocks and pork roasts
(with all the naturally occurring skin and fat) without problems.

> His second warning was that feeding raw meet subjects the dog to
> lots
> of infections, and that because of this most vet clinics will only
> treat raw-fed dogs off-site
One of my dogs has an irritable tummy, and we could never get him to
have solid stools on kibble, no matter what kind we tried. Almost 3
years ago we switched to a raw diet and the change has been amazing!
He is able to eat raw chicken, turkey, pork, beef, lamb, and fish on a
regular basis and has solid stools. He also has the energy of a puppy
(at 8.5 years old) and has put on a lot of muscle. Does this sound
like a dog who has lots of infections???

Because of moving, we've had a few different vets and some were happy
about us feeding raw (like one vet who actually recommends it and
feeds it to his own dogs) while others were not happy about it at all.
However noone told us that we couldn't be in their clinic!

> Another warning was that one has to be ULTRA careful that the meat
> you
> feed is fresh and human-grade.
See above about my sensitive tummy boy. While I buy most of their
food from grocery stores (which by definition makes it human grade)
sometimes it's in the fridge for a couple of days before it gets fed.
Sometimes it's frozen, then thawed, then frozen again (say when I'm
chopping up a whole turkey into meals), which is a no-no for human
food. No issues yet. And of course green tripe is not for human
consumption, so it's not human grade at all.

> I looked up his creds online and found that he
> was even named Outstanding Vet Tech of the year by the CVMA a few
> years ago.
Now I'm far from a conspiracy theorist, but I went to the CVMA website
and right on their front page is the Hills/Science Diet logo. Do you
suppose they may be just a little bit biased? ;)

Honestly, this vet sounds like he doesn't know anything about a raw
diet, and is afraid of it. No doubt because of what he's been told in
their various newsletters and publications about the "dangers". And
as your research indicated already, he doesn't seem to have the
details straight. He might be a very good surgeon, or whatever, but
nutrition he knows nothing about. Stick to your guns!

Olga

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7a. Peeing on spot where food was
Posted by: "Kim Kapes" kim@wolfsongk9relations.com kimatwolfsong
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:54 am ((PDT))

I have read this on several occasions andI thought I would shed some
light on the subject for those that are interested

The act of urinating on the spot where the food was is a way for the
dog/wolf to mark an empty food cache. In their instinctual behavior if
they came back to a spot that smelled like food, they would dig to find
it. Many of you might have noticed when your dogs carry off food they do
not want and they bury it. Well if a spot smells like food because that
is where is was consumed, they know not to waste time digging since it
has a urine scent. Very smart animals who don't need to waste energy
looking for food that is not there.

Just thought I 'd share. Kim (FL)

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8. Mucousy poop;Is this from too much treats??
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:16 am ((PDT))

Hi, yestreday,we went for walk and she did nice poo after being introduced Duck in her menue and this morning also.

However, just now,she got bit softer poo with some moucous in it although it has all shaped.

I am wondering if this because my neighbor gave too much treats to my dog..

Well,when we back from walk,neighbor and I talked at their lot and our dog wasplaying together and then,neighbor went in house and got some sausage doggy treats.
It was about 2inch size I think.

Palette got 3 of them.I was thinking "oh,it too much in one time",but didn't say any.

She was already got her own treats at home by me (Texas Tooth pics which is merrick made and it is natural treat made from oxtail).

We went back home and bit later, the same neighbor got us potato soup and again,he gave 6 inch doggy bone shaped biscuit..

After he backed to house,I managed to get the doggy biscuit out from my dog mouth although palettewas not too happy about it. She had some by thetime I get it.

Night time,I gave cut-up Duck.

This morning,she had very nice poo. But second poo she did was with mucous.

I am wondering if it happened due too much treat at one time or since I stopped giving all commercial doggy treats except rawhide category thing like Moo Tube(Treachea treat made from Treachea) or Bully sticks,she cannot digest the commercial doggy treats as good as she could?

Or,just like you cannot give kibble and raw at same time, doggy treats neghbor gave us and her dinner which was maybe 40 minutes later was causing digesting problems?

Since She seems doing well on Duck itself, I am not too concern about this but I was curious.

Yassy

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9a. Re: Help-10 mo Dane to start on raw
Posted by: "karimlizette" karimlizette@gmail.com karimlizette
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:17 am ((PDT))

I bought whole chickens and gave Bronco a quarter chicken for dinner. I
had to hand feed the pieces to him and coax him into eating. He ate
most of it. When I fed him this morning he wouldn't touch it and I just
don't have the amount of time I have in the evenings to coax him and
wait until he feels like it. So now he won't be able to eat until I get
home. He seems too skinny to me, and I dont want him to loose any more
weight.
Should I trim the fat off the chicken or give him everything in the
chicken??
Also with this diet will he get enough Glucosamine and Chondroitin for
healthy joints? I have been told Danes especially need this. And does
anyone know if rice is beneficial? Someone told me that Nutro Lamb &
Rice formula was the best thing to feed danes--but why if it has rice?

Thanks !!
Karim

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9b. Re: Help-10 mo Dane to start on raw
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:56 am ((PDT))

"karimlizette" <karimlizette@...> wrote:
>
> I bought whole chickens and gave Bronco a quarter chicken for
dinner. I
> had to hand feed the pieces to him and coax him into eating.
*****
It's not useful to hand feed him. It's not useful to coax him. Make
the meal approachable--cut deeply into it so it's got floppy ribbons
to grab at, warm it maybe--but let him sort it out. If he doesn't
eat, he misses the meal. A 10mo pup will not suffer from missing a
meal. You might, he won't.

When I fed him this morning he wouldn't touch it and I just
> don't have the amount of time I have in the evenings to coax him
and
> wait until he feels like it. So now he won't be able to eat until I
get
> home.
*****
Yes. That's right and that's okay. I promise you: if you let him
train you into subservience, he will. He will eat when he's hungry.
However, if you feel you need to spend more meal time with him, feed
him at night. Actually, you can feed him any old time it's
convenient for you to do so!

> Should I trim the fat off the chicken or give him everything in the
> chicken??
*****
Chicken fat is good; chicken fat is certainly what a skinny ninny can
use. Give him everything the chicken's got to offer.

> Also with this diet will he get enough Glucosamine and Chondroitin
for
> healthy joints?
*****
A good, varied raw diet (of which chicken is part) will provide lots
of cartilage for which come chondroitin and glusosamine. For now,
concentrate on feeding a good raw diet for overall health, joints
included. If later you are looking for therapeutic levels, you may
have to supplement.

I have been told Danes especially need this
*****
Danes need it nor more or less than any big dog does. When you feed
the whole range of a grand species appropriate diet you will be doing
more for your Dane than any one specific supplement could ever do.

does
> anyone know if rice is beneficial?
*****
It's not. Nor are grains. It's a carbohydrate used as the paste to
bind the ingredients. Sometimes rice protein is used; this is a
cheap source of plant protein and no plant protein can offer to a dog
the value and efficiency of animal protein.

Someone told me that Nutro Lamb &
> Rice formula was the best thing to feed danes--but why if it has
rice?
*****
The best thing to feed Danes is a species appropriate diet consisting
of meat, edible bone and organs. The rest is marketing, advertising
and smoke and mirrors.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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9c. Re: Help-10 mo Dane to start on raw
Posted by: "karimlizette" karimlizette@gmail.com karimlizette
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:45 am ((PDT))

Thanks Chris for your info and being so thorough with your answers, I
feel more relaxed now!
Karim

Messages in this topic (5)
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10a. Re: maybe slight constipation
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:25 am ((PDT))

>I've been feeding my 6.5mos/80# BB half chicken for 4 days.Past couple days he seems >to look constipated especially today.

Hi, kibblefed dog poo without any strain and come out easy because poo is mushy side,but rawfed dog,I think does have more firmer side poo and it gets out with some straining(i read this actually helps for anal grand problems for this bit of straining to poo).

To those who juststarted,this act may look like constipated but,sometimes,it is normal.

if thedog had squatted to poo and the poo did not come out at all,or if the dog
squatting so so long to get the poo coming out,or dog goes out to poo and squat but no luck pooing and try pooing zillions of times a day,I say it is constipated. Otherwise,normal, I think.

If the poo coming out is whitish chalky,you feeding too much bone so,you may want to add more meat to the dog meal.That should help.

> I just bought some meaty quarters and 8# fryers at $.89.Should i feed him twice a day >instead or add more meat/or take out the bone from the quarters?

I think,you don't need to take all the bone out from meal.Try feeding whole birds cut up portion and see how your dog does and if you think too much straining still,then,add more meat to that portion like..nice meaty chicken breast would make the piece of cut up meal much much more meaty.But too much food cause other problems so,you need to watch out for though.

When you start doing this new diet,you sometimes need testing water to know what is working and what is not for your dog.

Yassy

---------------------------------
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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11a. need help trying to figure out what to feed
Posted by: "dcutler896" dcutler896@iinet.com dcutler896
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:49 am ((PDT))

I'm new to this group my name is Debbi and I have 4 standard
poodles .my new 12 week old puppy came from a breeder that fed raw so
I'm trying to feed her raw and maybe change the other over they range
in age from 11-4
I need help trying to figure this all out how much to feed and how
to make frozen patty so when I go to a dog show it will be easy .she
ate the chicken without chewing it much so right now I'm grinding it.
What I'm feeding her so far has been chicken wings, ground with
asparagus a little yogurt and last night I added a little apple .i'm
feeding her about 2 plus cups a day .is this enough? Or too much? . I
haven't added any victims etc yet as I do not know what to buy. Is
there anywhere I can go for recipes on the meat part and the vegetable
part .do you feed the vegetable and meat together or at different
times?
Any help would be great
Thank you
Debbi

Messages in this topic (4)
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11b. Re: need help trying to figure out what to feed
Posted by: "rosey031801" rosey031801@sbcglobal.net rosey031801
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:12 am ((PDT))

I do not give my dog anything except meat, bone, organs etc. No yogurt,
veggies or fruit. He does fine without all that. I do make ground meat
patties for when I go out of town. I put a little seasoning, maybe a
tiny bit of cheese for flavor and freeze them. My dog sitter loves the
boneless easy meals. He like it frozen too. He prefers meat with bone
and because of his arthritis I give him alot of bone at home. Again, no
veggies or fruit or yogurt is needed at all...JMO.
Cheryl

Messages in this topic (4)
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11c. Re: need help trying to figure out what to feed
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:41 am ((PDT))

"dcutler896" <dcutler896@...> wrote:
>
> I'm new to this group my name is Debbi and I have 4 standard
> poodles .
*****
Good to have you here!

my new 12 week old puppy came from a breeder that fed raw so
> I'm trying to feed her raw and maybe change the other over they
range
> in age from 11-4
*****
The whole crowd deserves a species appropriate diet! Every last dog
everywhere does. You can adjust a raw menu to support any age dog as
no kibble ever could.

> I need help trying to figure this all out how much to feed and
how
> to make frozen patty so when I go to a dog show it will be easy
*****
No grinding. No patties. No veggies. No dairy. A good (and
simple) raw diet includes meat, meaty bones, organs. That's it. The
less work you do--the more work you leave to the dogs--the better for
them.

For shows, you can take with you chicken parts and hunks of whole
meats, there's no need for patties at any stage of a good raw diet.

.she
> ate the chicken without chewing it much so right now I'm grinding
it.
*****
Dogs, even puppies, don't chew like we chew so don't expect to see
that. They either smash, mash, crush and swallow, or--if the piece
is not worth the effort--swallow staight down. The way you feed raw
meaty bones to dogs, even puppies, is to feed pieces that are too
large to swallow straight down.

Grinding resolves the immediate issue to your satisfaction but does
little more than nourish the pup (no small result but food should do
more). No more grinding.

> What I'm feeding her so far has been chicken wings, ground with
> asparagus a little yogurt and last night I added a little
apple .i'm
> feeding her about 2 plus cups a day .is this enough? Or too much? .
*****
It's more relevant to feed by weight, not volume. Your pup can eat
perhaps 3% of her adult weight: if she'll be 50lb at maturity you can
likely feed her as much as a pound and a half of food a day now,
divided over however many daily feedings you prefer.

I recommend you feed her larger hunks of chicken starting right
away. I recommend you increase the amount of meat you feed. She
doesn't need the aspargus, she doesn't need the yogurt.

Later you can give her tablescrap veggies and you can give her yogurt
as an occasional treat--most anything can be an occasional treat!--
but now, now you focus on meaty bones and meat. Even organs can wait
a week or three as you gather your wits and resources about you.

> haven't added any victims etc yet as I do not know what to buy.
*****
No victims! Oh my, is that a sign of how you feel about this grand
adventure? Please no! You aren't one, your pup isn't one, the raw
meats you feed aren't either.

No vitamins either! The nutrients your pup needs are in the food
your pup eats. The week or so of chicken it takes to get you going
in the right direction will do no harm to your girl, and the variety
you will get into will nourish her splendidly.

Since there are no required mandatory veggies in a species
appropriate diet, you don't have to worry about where they go when.
They simply don't. You can feed meat with meaty bones with organs,
you can feed meat by itself, you can feed meaty bones by themselves,
you can feed either with organs...and when you and your pup know more
about raw food and about each other, you can even feed organs by
themselves.

Raw feeding is lots less complicated that you think it is!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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11d. Re: need help trying to figure out what to feed
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:45 am ((PDT))

>I need help trying to figure this all out how much to feed

Hi Debbie.How much to feed is depending on activity level and looks and all but starting point is 2-3 of ideal weight for adult dog and 2-3% of adult weight for pup.

>how to make frozen patty so when I go to a dog show it will be easy .

No patties. It is just adding to your work.No need.
Easy to bring; Canned fish like Sardine in water,Jack Mackerral in water,Salmon in water.
with can opener.

and,you can bring cooler with you. Put thecoolerwith ice and put frozen meat (not patties but something like whole bird cut up into 4 pieces for example) and go to show place and feed it on place.

Or,you just bring cooler and get ice and shop at grocery store(I believe you can get already cut up chicken;2 wings in there,2 legs are there,2 breasts are there or something.I forgot how the whole bird is cut up but it is easy to work with) Or just get sprit chicken breast with rib bone or Leg quarter from grocery near there. That would be easy. I think you don't need to worry about organs that much because balance over time so,during time on road,you could skip it and feed it at home maybe.

>she ate the chicken without chewing it much so right now I'm grinding it.

Dog does not chew like human does.They chew a couple of times or till it gets small enough pieces to swallow. You can stop your hard work of grinding and easy on yourself.

If you are worry about not chewing much,then,give bigger pieces that dog needs to nibble on not gulping.THat should help.

>What I'm feeding her so far has been chicken wings,

This maybe culprit for not chewing much.If you give wing attacjhed to breeast;if you cut chicken to 4 pieces,you get 2 comes with wing,other 2 comes with legs.That should help stop your worries.I think wing maybe too small for your dog to eat.

>ground with asparagus a little yogurt and last night I added a little apple .

Veggies are carb and dog does not need carb. Yogurt may help for digesting but it is not something you need to give daily.If given,maybe spoonful as a treats or something. Not as meal.

>.do you feed the vegetable and meat together or at different times?

You just need Meat,bit of bone,and organ.

Good one to start,chicken. Cut up to 4 pieces or to your dog's appropriate portion size and give it to the dog. No veggies. No carb.No paty needed.

You feed chicken and start from there.If the dog get chubby,feed less,if your dog got skinny,feed more. 2-3% is just a guideline to start.

yassy

---------------------------------
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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12a. Re: Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
Posted by: "pelle567" krjoyner@firstam.com pelle567
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:13 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "delcaste" <delcaste@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Katie, I have an APBT and 2 pugs. All three love their raw diet
> but I have to admit that watching the APBT and the pugs eat leaves
> much to be desired in the way of crunching and tearing lol. >
> Silvina
>

Silvia, I know what you mean! My big dogs crunch through those bones
and boy do they looked pleased with themselves! And my poor Barley
boy might as well be doing long division; he's got his little face all
screwed up switching the bone from one side to the other...then he
stops to rest and looks at me like is this a joke? I know he'll get
there; for now he just needs a little help...

Thank you again everyone!

Katie

Messages in this topic (15)
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