[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11874

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Can you feed bone every meal?
From: spicemother
1b. Re: Can you feed bone every meal?
From: Sandee Lee
1c. Re: Can you feed bone every meal?
From: Laurie Swanson

2a. Re: Starting Golden and English Setter on Elk?
From: Tina Berry

3a. Re: all these problems
From: magolin0328
3b. Re: all these problems
From: Daisy Foxworth
3c. Re: all these problems
From: Laurie Swanson
3d. Re: all these problems
From: cdhaik
3e. all these problems
From: Ann Flynn

4a. feeding frozen food (was Re: Starting Golden and English Setter on E
From: Laurie Swanson

5a. Re: Effect of raw food eating on canine cataracts
From: Ann Flynn
5b. Re: Effect of raw food eating on canine cataracts
From: Cynthia Brown

6a. Re: Probiotics ???
From: ian.atchison
6b. Re: Probiotics ??? -- Question for Ian
From: Cynthia Brown
6c. Re: Probiotics ???
From: natgs
6d. Re: Probiotics ??? -- Question for Ian
From: Sandee Lee
6e. Re: Probiotics ??? -- Question for Ian
From: Sonja

7a. Re: Effect of Raw Food Eating on Canine Cataracts?
From: Cynthia Brown
7b. Effect of Raw Food Eating on Canine Cataracts?
From: Ivette Casiano

8a. Directory for Pro-Raw Food / Holistic Vets ???
From: Cynthia Brown
8b. Re: Directory for Pro-Raw Food / Holistic Vets ???
From: pine243

9. Hello from a newbie.
From: rebecca_rogge

10a. Need Help/Jaundice dog
From: luckypuppy197136
10b. Re: Need Help/Jaundice dog
From: Sandee Lee

11. Juvenile Diabetes
From: strausshausshepherds

Messages
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1a. Can you feed bone every meal?
Posted by: "spicemother" spicemother@yahoo.com spicemother
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 1:46 pm ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS, PLEASE!

Are you able to feed bone every meal? I always give the thigh bones
at every meal (twice a day) she likes them but for the first time in a
month she threw a little piece of bone back up it scared me. Is this
normal?

Messages in this topic (3)
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1b. Re: Can you feed bone every meal?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 2:01 pm ((PDT))

Throwing up a little piece of bone she couldn't digest really isn't a big
deal. That's how dogs get rid of offending objects.
However, if you are feeding bone at every meal without feeding extra meat,
you are quite possibly feeding too much bone. What are you feeding other
than chicken thighs?

Every meal certainly doesn't require bone. Remember, only 10% or so should
be bone.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "spicemother" <spicemother@yahoo.com>

Are you able to feed bone every meal? I always give the thigh bones
at every meal (twice a day) she likes them but for the first time in a
month she threw a little piece of bone back up it scared me. Is this
normal?

Messages in this topic (3)
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1c. Re: Can you feed bone every meal?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 2:13 pm ((PDT))

I wouldn't worry--for whatever reason, that bit of bone probably wasn't
getting digested well and it came back up. No biggie. What size dog
do you have, how long on raw, and what exactly do you feed? You want
lots of meat, some bone, and a little organs. If you feed too much
bone, you'll probably get constipation and/or dry, hard, crumbly stools
much of the time.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "spicemother" <spicemother@...>
wrote:
>
> MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS, PLEASE!
>
>
> Are you able to feed bone every meal? I always give the thigh bones
> at every meal (twice a day) she likes them but for the first time in a
> month she threw a little piece of bone back up it scared me. Is this
> normal?
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. Re: Starting Golden and English Setter on Elk?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 1:47 pm ((PDT))

" I have about 200lbs of Elk in the freezer that I would like to start with.
Is Elk going to be a good starter meat? Also, it is all frozen in 1lb
packages. What issue will I be up against feeding it frozen."

WOW! Lucky you!!! As mentioned, thawed would probably be more apetizing
for the first meals, but I feed frozen all the time in this hot weather.
For teeth cleaning benefits I would feed whole or half a chicken once or
twice a week - which is what I do now. Most our meat is venison, hunter
scraps, etc. and a lot of times the bones are separate from all the meat.
So I feed 100% venison with a half a chicken a couple times a week. Frozen
or thaw.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Re: all these problems
Posted by: "magolin0328" maggie.taylor@artlover.com magolin0328
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 1:47 pm ((PDT))

In the first few weeks of switching Diesel after I got him (I switched
him to raw the day I brought him home from the shelter) he started
shedding horribly. However, the coat that was falling out was dull
and coarse and not a terribly nice coat overall. He was never bald or
anything, but he was shedding a LOT. When the new coat started coming
in it was an extremely shiny blue black that looked (and still does
look!) wonderfully healthy. His ears and eyes got a bit gunky and his
ears were a bit stinky for a couple weeks, but after that everything
was fine.

I didn't really count those things as problems though. It was like a
kind of 'detox' period. He'd previously been a shelter dog so I know
he was kibble fed...and I'm sure it was very cheap kibble at that.

He's had diarrhea a couple times, but I don't really count that as a
problem either. It happens every now and again if he eats a huge
amount of something that's too rich, but I don't really worry about it
as long as it doesn't go on for more than a day or two.

The dog shouldn't ever look starving... Some may *act* like they are
when they refuse to eat the raw food at first and skip a couple meals,
but a healthy dog won't truly starve itself. If the dog looks too
thin there is definitely something wrong.

Maggie
Diesel, SDIT

Am I going to have health problems to work out
> in the beginning or are these things just rare??
>
> Ty
>

Messages in this topic (19)
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3b. Re: all these problems
Posted by: "Daisy Foxworth" daisyfoxworth@yahoo.com daisyfoxworth
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 2:09 pm ((PDT))

>
> Have you been to Kevin's site at www.rawfeddogs.net, yet? If not,
go there
> and click on "recipes" and you'll get to see real dogs eating real
foods -
>

Casey, I just checked out his recipes page and it's a riot!
Definitely a keeper to forward to friends on the fence.

Well, my own story...great stools, good coat, everything's great...

Daisy

Messages in this topic (19)
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3c. Re: all these problems
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 2:09 pm ((PDT))

I totally agree, Ross! I expect my dog to be perfectly healthy and
want to do what I can to contribute to that. If there are any issues,
I try to figure out what adjustment might help him. My mom, on the
other hand, listens to the vet, feeds Science Diet canned and cooked
chicken exclusively, and just accepts that she'll have to "watch" her
dog's mast cell cancer and treat his chronic staph infection and
allergies. It's two different paradigms.

But people are going to have some "problems" when new to rawfeeding.
There's lots to learn. Dogs are coming from various diets, with
various health problems already. We have to locate sources, learn what
meats our dogs do well with, deal with what's available in the grocery
stores and how it's been "butchered." We're going back to nature in a
culture where there is no support for it in the mainstream.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Ross Senger" <rosssenger@...> wrote:
>
> I was at the off leash park yesterday and kept a watchful eye out for
> what other dogs were doing. Allot of dogs pooped 3-4 times in the 30
> mins I was there... runny diarrhea, others were dragging there butts
on
> the ground with obvious anal gland problems, there was a mastiff with
> big chunks of hair tore out due to some allergy of skin
irritation....
> it was amazing... and none of the owners seemed to think there was an
> issue!!

Messages in this topic (19)
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3d. Re: all these problems
Posted by: "cdhaik" cdhaik@yahoo.com cdhaik
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 2:10 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "blacty" <Ty@...> wrote:
>
> I am getting a little concerned about all these problems I keep
seeing
> in these posts.

Hi Ty

Take a look at how many mebers are on this list as opposed to how
many post that should give you an inkling of how many of us have had
success. I have not really found it neccessary to post as to how
happy i am feeding raw to my 2 yo Aussie my new 4 month old boy or
my 15 year old man. I have only been doing it for six months now and
it works for us and yes we did have a few wobblies in the beggining
because i was very excited to see how they did on variety. They have
had loose stools solid stools white stools and mucousy stools were
normal in the beggining as the tummys became used to no more kibble
after almost a lifetime of bieng on it so yes some sort of detox has
to happen. Sometimes health issues that have been suppressed and
simmering can suddenly surface so some people may have more problems
than others too.

Truly Ty raw feeding has been the best thing i have done for my
dogs. My Aussie girl is and agility dog and she is always commented
on what wonderful condition she is in, not an ounce of fat, all
healthy muscle and glosy coat. Clean shiny teeth, glossy coats, no
more anal gland congestion for my old boy. Sometimes we have a bit
of bad gas and farting due to turkey and pork but on the whole
absolutely no problems and oh yes the poop issue tells me what needs
to go in when so poop is ever changing and ever observed in our
household. Jump in there, your dogs will thank you and the mods have
good advice and help for issues you may have.

Caren y Amber y Rain y Angus

Messages in this topic (19)
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3e. all these problems
Posted by: "Ann Flynn" a.flynn@optusnet.com.au flynn_nn
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 3:02 pm ((PDT))

Hello,

Just want to add that the problems my dog (13 yo lab x) has experienced
have, I believe, been the result of a lifetime of canned and kibbled junk
because I didn't know better.

She has only been on raw for a month. She had no trouble switching over, and
I have seen big improvements all round...in her being less stiff and more
mobile, eyes clear, teeth clean and breath good, smelly gas has disappeared,
her poops are no longer offensive to pick up, and there is so much less of
them, she was drinking a huge and unnatural amount of water before and now
is drinking a normal amount. Her flakey dandruff that she's had for years
has now disappeared, and her coat is looking good. She is clearly a much
happier dog thanks to now eating real dog food, and I only wish I had found
out about raw feeding long ago.

Good luck with your dogs.

Ann.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (19)
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4a. feeding frozen food (was Re: Starting Golden and English Setter on E
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 1:50 pm ((PDT))

I would defrost it and feed it at room temperature, myself. They'd
naturally catch and eat their food warm, most of the time (maybe some
occasional burying and eating frozen later). And I imagine it would be
more satisfying--aroma-wise, texture-wise, etc. It just doesn't sound
pleasant to me to have to try and eat a frozen brick of meat all the
time. I wonder if it would bother their teeth (you know how we often
have sensitivity to cold?). Who knows, though? You might try it once
in awhile on a hot day to occupy them and see how they do. Or, if it's
ground, you could thaw it and stuff it into Kongs, freeze, and feed.
That's a good occupier, but wouldn't be bad on sensitive teeth.

I'm assuming they're big dogs? I hear that tiny dogs can have problems
eating cold/frozen food--brings their body temp. down too far too
quickly.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "blacty" <Ty@...> wrote:
> Also, it is all frozen
> in 1lb packages. What issue will I be up against feeding it frozen. I
> was thinking it would be more work for them, clean their teeth better
> and be cool treat in this hot weather. am I thinking along the right
> lines?

Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. Re: Effect of raw food eating on canine cataracts
Posted by: "Ann Flynn" a.flynn@optusnet.com.au flynn_nn
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 2:09 pm ((PDT))

Hi,

My 13yo lab x has been on raw for a month now. Her eyes were starting to get
a bluish cloudiness about them before the switch. Don't know if that was the
start of cataracts or not, but I suspect so. Her eyes are now so much
clearer and brighter after only a month off canned and kibbled.

Ann.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: Effect of raw food eating on canine cataracts
Posted by: "Cynthia Brown" temecula_lady@yahoo.com temecula_lady
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 3:02 pm ((PDT))

OUTSTANDING!!!! I look forward to providing my own praise report in the future for my 3 yr old Sophia Bella --a Llasa Apsa / Maltese mix who was diagnosed with a cataract in her right eye when she was barely 4 months old. The opthomologist had me giving her steroid eye drops to shrink the cataract -- but it got to expensive seeing this "specialist" every 2 months. I am so hoping that the raw diet will improve, if not totally eliminate this condition. She's a real sweetie! (Aren't they all!!!)

Cynthia --- owned by Duffy, Sophie, Tinkerbell
Temecula, CA

Ann Flynn <a.flynn@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
Hi,

My 13yo lab x has been on raw for a month now. Her eyes were starting to get
a bluish cloudiness about them before the switch. Don't know if that was the
start of cataracts or not, but I suspect so. Her eyes are now so much
clearer and brighter after only a month off canned and kibbled.

Ann.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Re: Probiotics ???
Posted by: "ian.atchison" ian.atchison@yahoo.com ian.atchison
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 2:10 pm ((PDT))

I give my boxer a probiotic regularly. He has a very sensitive
stomach and raw feeding combined with the probiotic has done WONDERS
for him. I know in some cases probiotics actually irritate their
stomach though- we used one brand that has a disgusting side effect.
Our vet was trying to sell us meds- we tried changing his diet and
using a probiotic and happily told his vet to keep the pills. :)

best,

ian
advance, nc.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Only when necessary...such as a dog with serious illness requiring
long term
> antibiotics, etc.

Messages in this topic (7)
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6b. Re: Probiotics ??? -- Question for Ian
Posted by: "Cynthia Brown" temecula_lady@yahoo.com temecula_lady
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 3:02 pm ((PDT))

Ian,

My 65 lb-er has a sensitive tummy too. The vet want him to take over-the-counter Tagamet on a daily basis + eat Eukanuba **KIBBLE** (for sensitive stomachs). I started all my dogs on raw food (chicken) yesterday. So far, so good. Would you mind sharing which probiotic you found helpful?

Thanks again.

Cynthia ... owned by Duffy, Sophie, Tinkerbell

"ian.atchison" <ian.atchison@yahoo.com> wrote:
I give my boxer a probiotic regularly. He has a very sensitive
stomach and raw feeding combined with the probiotic has done WONDERS
for him. I know in some cases probiotics actually irritate their
stomach though- we used one brand that has a disgusting side effect.
Our vet was trying to sell us meds- we tried changing his diet and
using a probiotic and happily told his vet to keep the pills. :)

best,

ian
advance, nc.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Only when necessary...such as a dog with serious illness requiring
long term
> antibiotics, etc.

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (7)
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6c. Re: Probiotics ???
Posted by: "natgs" natgs@yahoo.com natgs
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 3:02 pm ((PDT))

Dear Cynthia,

Personally, I keep probiotics on hand. They work great to
improve/restore the intestinal balance. My dog is still young (almost
16mo), and many foods are new to him. Even though I introduce any new
meets in small portions, sometimes I notice that, when I do that, his
poop gets more liquidy; sometimes there's also mucous. Although his
body will figure it out on its own eventually, I don't want to risk
getting up in the middle of the night to take him out (I don't have a
backyard). So when he eats something new, I usually add some
probiotics (1/4 of teaspoon for a 75lb dog).

To clarify, when I say 'probiotics', I don't necessarily mean the
supplements you buy at a health store. Although I do use them
sometimes, I prefer to go with kefir or yogurt.

Hope this helps.

Natalya

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Cynthia Brown <temecula_lady@...>
wrote:
>
> New and learning here ...
>
> Are probiotics (ever) recommended with the raw food plan?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Cynthia ... Duffy, Sophie, Tinkerbell
> Temecula, CA
>

Messages in this topic (7)
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6d. Re: Probiotics ??? -- Question for Ian
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 3:19 pm ((PDT))

Not Ian, but I would try to get by without the probiotics for now. We
constantly hear of breeds and individual dogs who have a "sensitive stomach"
but it was merely irritation from trying to digest indigestible foods....you
know, all those cooked grains, etc! :))

If a dog absolutely requires a supplement, then go for it, but "just in
case" is never a good idea.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Cynthia Brown" <temecula_lady@yahoo.com>
>
> My 65 lb-er has a sensitive tummy too. The vet want him to take
over-the-counter Tagamet on a daily basis + eat Eukanuba **KIBBLE** (for
sensitive stomachs). I started all my dogs on raw food (chicken) yesterday.
So far, so good. Would you mind sharing which probiotic you found helpful?

Messages in this topic (7)
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6e. Re: Probiotics ??? -- Question for Ian
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 4:31 pm ((PDT))

I second Sandee's opinion....I was soooo hesitant to take Kodie off probiotics because she was very dependent on them with kibble. At the urging of everyone here, I dumped the enzymes and probiotics and our progress took a step backward...and then three steps forward. She's now off of all of those expensive supplements and is doing fairly well (she had a TON of problems to begin with, so "fairly well" is awesome for her). We're still fine tuning things, but we're much better off than we were with kibble.

Sonja

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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7a. Re: Effect of Raw Food Eating on Canine Cataracts?
Posted by: "Cynthia Brown" temecula_lady@yahoo.com temecula_lady
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 2:10 pm ((PDT))

In their book Dr. Pitcairn's Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs & Cats, the doctors say that non-accident related cataracts are sometimes an "accompaniment of chronic disease and immune disorders". By my reasoning, if a raw diet can eliminate disease and improve overall systemic health ... and, if non-accident related cataracts are a symptom of the disease that has been eliminated -- VOILA, no more cataracts.

Do I sound like a hopeful - wishful - please God, let it be so kind of Mom? Guilty!

Day # 2 feeding raw in this household!

Cynthia ... owned by Duffy, Sophie, Tinkerbell
Temecula, CA

Cdandp2@aol.com wrote:
I'm not sure, but it seems to me that Spencer's eyes are a little less
cloudy/milky lately. He's been on raw now for several months. I'm interested in
hearing about this one too.

Carol for Spencer

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Messages in this topic (4)
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7b. Effect of Raw Food Eating on Canine Cataracts?
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 4:54 pm ((PDT))

"Anyone have experience with cataract improvement since feeding their dogs on the raw food plan?"

OMG, my dog has cataracts too and is a 7 yr Lab. I heard it was common in Labs but they were supposed to outgrow them. Since we didn't have him until he was 4 and he didn't start on the raw until a few months ago, we haven't seen any improvement yet.
If anyone else has any news on this, please let us know.
Ivette

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

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Messages in this topic (4)
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8a. Directory for Pro-Raw Food / Holistic Vets ???
Posted by: "Cynthia Brown" temecula_lady@yahoo.com temecula_lady
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 2:29 pm ((PDT))

Am I just dreaming, or does such a directory / website / referral network actually exist?


Cynthia ... owned by Duffy, Sophie, Tinkerbell
Temecula, CA

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Messages in this topic (2)
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8b. Re: Directory for Pro-Raw Food / Holistic Vets ???
Posted by: "pine243" pine243@yahoo.com pine243
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 4:32 pm ((PDT))

Here's a link to the American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association:
http://www.holisticvetlist.com/

They have a search function on that page that allows you to search for
holistic vets whether you want one in a certain
state/country/specialty et cetera. The results of the search will give
the vets name, address, and sometimes a link to their webpage.

Laurie

Messages in this topic (2)
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9. Hello from a newbie.
Posted by: "rebecca_rogge" rebecca_rogge@yahoo.com rebecca_rogge
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 3:05 pm ((PDT))

Hi
I have just started looking into raw feeding for a couple days after
hearing about it from a friend. It makes total sense to me. My dogs
developed terrible skin allergies about two years ago, and I have
done everything to no avail. I have spent tons of money on so called
holistic dog food designed for allergies and a suppliment to sprinkle
on the food, natural healing creams, etc... One has a huge hot spot
right now and the vet put her on antibiotic pills and cream. After
two weeks it looks worse! I am very excited to see if a raw diet
will help my dogs. I am going to start them asap.

FYI: Maybe you don't have any control over this, but there are
advertisements for Purina and other "kibble" brands at the top of
this page. If you scroll over one ad, it has people saying how much
it helped their cat or dog. Don't you think that is not right since
this site reveals the problems of commercial dog food? Just thought
you'd want to look into it. It doesn't bother me, but someone else
might be like... "HMMM".

Thanks again for the weath of info on this site to help me get
started.
Rebecca

Messages in this topic (1)
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10a. Need Help/Jaundice dog
Posted by: "luckypuppy197136" cooniefish@aol.com luckypuppy197136
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 3:25 pm ((PDT))

Hi there. I took one of my dogs to the vet for a minor issue and it
looks like she is jaundiced. she is yellow. The vet suggested
a "special diet," but I told him to hold off. Is there anything that I
should or should not be feeding to this dog? I notice that she has been
eschewing chicken and only wants red meat lately.

thanks
Samantha

Messages in this topic (2)
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10b. Re: Need Help/Jaundice dog
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 3:32 pm ((PDT))

Samantha,

You need to know what's wrong with the dog...what did blood work show?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "luckypuppy197136" <cooniefish@aol.com>

Hi there. I took one of my dogs to the vet for a minor issue and it
looks like she is jaundiced. she is yellow. The vet suggested
a "special diet," but I told him to hold off. Is there anything that I
should or should not be feeding to this dog? I notice that she has been
eschewing chicken and only wants red meat lately.

Messages in this topic (2)
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11. Juvenile Diabetes
Posted by: "strausshausshepherds" strausshausshepherds@yahoo.com strausshausshepherds
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 3:31 pm ((PDT))

Can anyone recommend a raw diet plan for a 7 month old puppy with
Juvenile diabetes? He is currently on a commercial kibble (not sure
which one) but he will be coming here next week, and we feed raw. Any
advise is appreciated.
Jessica

Messages in this topic (1)
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