[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11864

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. I'm new :)
From: Joanne Cragen
1b. Re: I'm new :)
From: Giselle
1c. Re: I'm new :)
From: carnesbill
1d. Re: I'm new :)
From: Joanne Cragen
1e. Re: I'm new :)
From: Joanne Cragen

2a. Re: New to Raw: Is this diet okay?
From: Giselle
2b. Re: New to Raw: Is this diet okay?
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: HOW LONG CAN I HOLD OUT NOT FEEDING STUBBORN CAT :(
From: Casey Post

4a. Re: Natural Siamese Cats
From: pet.wellness
4b. Re: Natural Siamese Cats
From: Giselle
4c. Re: Natural Siamese Cats
From: Suzie G

5a. what to do while we're on holiday
From: Verity-Anne Dokter
5b. Re: what to do while we're on holiday
From: carnesbill
5c. Re: what to do while we're on holiday
From: cypressbunny

6a. Re: next best thing
From: saphiradane
6b. Re: next best thing
From: cypressbunny
6c. Re: next best thing
From: Ross Senger

7a. Newbie - just took the plunge
From: sgubernatis
7b. Re: Newbie - just took the plunge
From: cresco299
7c. Re: Newbie - just took the plunge
From: Sue Gubernatis

8. new to this group
From: Jennifer

9. I love my vet!
From: millser25

10a. Re: Orange Roughly from NZ
From: Yasuko herron

11. calcium/phosphorous ration
From: swilken61

12a. Re: Gauge
From: lizwehrli

Messages
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1a. I'm new :)
Posted by: "Joanne Cragen" joannkey@ptd.net joannecragen
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:28 am ((PDT))

Hello:
I have a 1 yr old silky terrier and 9 month siberian husky. This
morning i started the raw feeding. My silky terrier(Zeus) ate alittle,
and my sibe just nibbled and walked away. Both meats were frozen when
I first gave it to them. The second time I just fryed the outside
alittle.( to get the juices flowing)Nothing
My sibe has a sensitive stomach and he does better on beef(I gave him
cooked beef before so his runs would clear up and they did in 24 hrs)
I gave my Zeus the chicken.(he does better on chicken) Any
suggestions? He doesn't want to eat it outside and he wants to bring
it on the carpet, which I'm not allowing. He has a crate and he won't
eat it in there also, so should I wait it out till tonight and see
what happens or should I cook the meat more till they get useto it?
Thanks in advance
Joanne
ps I have a toddler which is wondering what the heck I'm doing, so
maybe tonight would be better when I get home from work:)

Messages in this topic (5)
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1b. Re: I'm new :)
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:19 am ((PDT))

Hi, Joanne!
Welcome to the raw side! ; )
Its very helpful to feed your dogs where you can keep an eye on them.
That way, you know how much they're eating, you know they're not
burying it in the back yard for later, you know if there is a
choking/stuck bone right away, and you know they aren't getting into
each others business. You also know your toddler isn't 'helping' them
eat.

I'd designate regular eating places for them, maybe in the kitchen?
I'd put an old rug or towel down in each place. These can be taken up
after the meal, they protect the area you're feeding in, and only need
to be washed once a week or so. You can also put a barrier around each
dog at first to teach them that 'this is THE place', and the only
place, to eat. A wire ex-pen would work for the Sibe. You can put the
Silky in a cardboard box with high sides to keep him contained. Your
toddler's 'special' chair and a finger painting or modeling clay
project or feeding him his dinner too, can keep them all out of your
hair, and in their own meals. ; )

I'd start them both on chicken at first, for simplicity's sake. Feed
them according to their size; give your Silky a 1/3 of a breast, with
or without bone. You could ribbon the meat a little with a knife or
kitchen shears to give him something to grab onto. I'd give the Sibe
(you didn't say his age, so I'm assuming full grown)a 1/4 chicken.

If they don't eat, wait 10-15 minutes, then take it up, and put in the
fridge for the next meal. If you want to try to make the meal more
interesting at first, to give them the idea that its real food, you can;
1) put it under warm water for a few minutes.
2) sear it in a very hot pan for a few seconds.
3) cut slits or ribbon the meat off the bone to give them something to
grab onto.
4) Rub something smelly, like canned tuna oil/water, or Parmesan
cheese or canned dog food onto it.

Only do *one* thing to the meat before serving it, and don't take it
up during a meal to do anything else to it.

I would be sure that the meat is thawed out, especially for the Silky.
Tiny dogs core body temperatures can be lowered dangerously by eating
frozen or very cold meats. And, raw food isn't flavorized with
additives, like commercial dog foods, so thawing your dog's meals
first will help entice them to eat it.

If your dogs don't eat at a meal, take it up after 10-15 minutes. No
fussing, no coaxing, no snacks or bribes or sharing! Just wait until
the next meal, do whatever you're going to do to it to get them
intrigued into eating it, then put it down and let them be. Sometimes,
we confuse or intimidate the dog we are trying to entice into eating
by fussing or interfering, and he thinks he's not *supposed* to eat it!

TC and let us know how things progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hello:
> I have a 1 yr old silky terrier and 9 month Siberian husky. This
> morning I started the raw feeding. My silky terrier (Zeus) ate a little,
> and my Sibe just nibbled and walked away. Both meats were frozen when
> I first gave it to them. The second time I just fried the outside
> a little.( to get the juices flowing) Nothing
> My Sibe has a sensitive stomach and he does better on beef(I gave him
> cooked beef before so his runs would clear up and they did in 24 hrs)
> I gave my Zeus the chicken.(he does better on chicken) Any
> suggestions? He doesn't want to eat it outside and he wants to bring
> it on the carpet, which I'm not allowing. He has a crate and he won't
> eat it in there also, so should I wait it out till tonight and see
> what happens or should I cook the meat more till they get used to it?
> Thanks in advance
> Joanne
> ps I have a toddler which is wondering what the heck I'm doing, so
> maybe tonight would be better when I get home from work:)
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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1c. Re: I'm new :)
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:30 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Joanne Cragen" <joannkey@...>
wrote:
>
> Hello:
> I have a 1 yr old silky terrier and 9 month siberian husky. This
> morning i started the raw feeding. My silky terrier(Zeus)
> ate alittle,
> and my sibe just nibbled and walked away.

I wouldn't feed frozen and I would feed chicken to both dogs. Beef
can be a little rich and you need to wait until they have been
eating raw for a few weeks before you feed it. Raw beef and cooked
beef are two different things.

Put their food down and if they are not eating on it in 15 minutes,
take it up and feed it again next meal. No between meal snacks and
no treats. Do the the same each meal until they eat. Don't make a
big fuss over it. Just do it without comment.

Sometimes it takes them a few times to figure out its really food
and then a little while longer to learn how to eat it.

I would also keep toddler away from them while they are learning to
eat. It is just an unneeded distraction.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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1d. Re: I'm new :)
Posted by: "Joanne Cragen" joannkey@ptd.net joannecragen
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:06 am ((PDT))

Thank you, I would have to get a barrier for the sibe, they are always
interested in each others food. I gave the silky a chicken thigh and
the sibe a 1.5 pound beef shank. I did boil it in water for a minute
and that seemed to help. I also cut a few big chunks, then I gave a
whole big piece. I think that kind of inticed them to eat it. I also
put them both on the back porch and watched them, but I will do what
ya said and get some kind of pen for the sibe for the inside.(it's
only convient for now since i don't have a pen)and i like them both to
get useto this new feeding. They both get feed twice a day with snacks
, so I will try ribboning it tonight when I get home from work.
Thanks again
Joanne

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Joanne!
> Welcome to the raw side! ; )
> Its very helpful to feed your dogs where you can keep an eye on them.
> That way, you know how much they're eating, you know they're not
> burying it in the back yard for later, you know if there is a
> choking/stuck bone right away, and you know they aren't getting into
> each others business. You also know your toddler isn't 'helping' them
> eat.
>
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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1e. Re: I'm new :)
Posted by: "Joanne Cragen" joannkey@ptd.net joannecragen
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:07 am ((PDT))

Unfortunately, I gave the sibe chicken and rice before when he had the
runs. Didn't help and then I just gave him chicken and it still didn't
help. The only thing he ate was venison then, and the runs cleared up
in 24 hrs.( this happened when he was just a couple of months old) I
think he might be senitive to poultry, which i think is really rare,
so thats why I gave him beef instead.He is still to this day sensitive
to chicken, because i tried again( he was on beef protein evo and did
well on that, but after finding the article on the evo, which had big
chucks of black stuff in it and his teeth are not real white, I
decided to go rawfeeding totally) I did boil both meats for a minute(
maybe I can work up to complete raw) and gave a little chunk at first,
(because they did get meat portions before, but not full big chunk)
then I gave them a big chunk afterwards and they both ate it. I guess
they both need a little therapy because they are not useto it. I'm
gonna try again, instead i will cut into the meat a little :)
Thanks
Joanne
>
> I wouldn't feed frozen and I would feed chicken to both dogs. Beef
> can be a little rich and you need to wait until they have been
> eating raw for a few weeks before you feed it. Raw beef and cooked
> beef are two different things.
>

>
> Feeding Raw since October 2002
>
> "Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
> Dr. Tom Lonsdale
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. Re: New to Raw: Is this diet okay?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:32 am ((PDT))

Hi, uh, cadence_nakashima!
Good for you for wanting to feed your dogs a
species appropriate diet!

You can save yourself a lot of money, and work, by eliminating the
premade stuff, and also all the unnecessary veggies, fruits, et al.
And, ground meat isn't the best form of meat for your dogs.

Dogs are carnivores, just like wolves, and can get everything thing
they need nutritionally from prey animals like cows, deer, pigs,
chickens, etc. The way it works is; the herbivore eats the vegetation
and the carnivore eats the herbivore, and gets the benefit of both the
herbivore and what it ate, right?

Dogs need whole chunks of meat and edible bone for physical and dental
activity. They don't need the hard, dense bones of cows - these are
(w)rec(k) bones and can break teeth and cause unnatural wear. They
don't need bone in every meal.

Dogs don't need a lot of edible bone, just about 10% of the diet, 80%
of it should be meat; muscle, skin, fat, connective tissue, anything
that isn't bone or organs. Organs are important to feed, too; about
10% of the diet. Liver should be half of that, with kidney, spleen,
sweet breads and other organs making up the other 5%.

All you really need to do is go to the supermarket and buy meat with
bones in, like whole chickens, pork shoulders, fresh hams, beef
roasts, beef/veal heart, beef ribs, whole turkeys, lamb, etc. Whole
animals are better, but supermarket meats are easily obtainable,
mostly affordable and ain't too shabby, either. : ) There is a list of
creative ways to find more exotic meats and ways to source meats more
affordably, let me know if you are interested and I will post it.

You are likely to see a further reduction in the size and frequency of
poops when you switch over to prey model raw, and ditch all the
unnecessary veggies, etc. Vegetable matter is not digested or utilized
well by dogs, and mostly just comes out the other end, causing larger
and frequent stools.

Its better for the dog, especially larger dogs like yours, to feed BIG
chunks of meaty bones, like 1/2 or whole chickens or 1/4 turkeys or
pork shoulders. A general 'rule of thumb' is to feed 2-3 percent daily
of the dog's optimum adult weight. If your dog is too thin, feed more;
too fat, feed less. Very active or more sedentary dogs will need more
or less food accordingly.

I think I covered your questions and more, but let me know if you have
any others I can help with.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hi everyone! I'm the proud owner of an almost 2 year old APBT and an
> almost 3 year old Rott/Dobe. The APBT is a good healthy weight for
> his bone structure and the rott/dobe I try to keep a bit on the
> lighter side to prevent hip issues for farther down the road.
>
> A little over 4 months ago, I switched to raw cold turkey with
> Nature's Variety medallions. I was afraid that I didn't have enough
> knowledge to make my own raw diet and thought it would be a good
> transition. The dogs loved it, and within days I saw a significant
> reduction in poo as well as the "quality" of their poo (more solid).
> I quickly discovered that they didn't take to the "game-ier" meats,
> like rabbit but put up with venison.
>
> This is currently what I feed per day:
>
> 1lb of a "meat mixture" from the butcher's shop (70% ground beef,
> 20% offal and 10% lamb)
>
> ~ 1lb of chicken backs
>
> I tried a diet I got from another raw feeding friend for one batch,
> but before I went through the trouble of making it up again, (it
> took over an hour for not even three days worth of food), I wanted
> to make sure it was a complete diet.
>
> 8lbs of the dog meat mixture
> 1lb of carrot, spinach and alfafa grass
> 1lb of blueberries and apples
> 5oz of crushed flax seed
> 50z of yogurt
> 1 can of sardines
>
> If there are any other easy diets that don't include the "game-ier"
> meats I'd love to hear them and try them out! I tried to feed whole
> rabbit to no avail and they also don't seem to take to buffalo meat.
>
> I suppose I should add that on top of the chicken backs that they
> get everyday for bone, they also get RMB every few days.
>
> Thanks in advance. : )
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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2b. Re: New to Raw: Is this diet okay?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:07 am ((PDT))

"cadence_nakashima" <cadence_nakashima@...> wrote:
>> This is currently what I feed per day:
>
> 1lb of a "meat mixture" from the butcher's shop (70% ground beef,
> 20% offal and 10% lamb)
>
> ~ 1lb of chicken backs
>
> I tried a diet I got from another raw feeding friend for one batch,
> but before I went through the trouble of making it up again, (it
> took over an hour for not even three days worth of food), I wanted
> to make sure it was a complete diet.
>
> 8lbs of the dog meat mixture
> 1lb of carrot, spinach and alfafa grass
> 1lb of blueberries and apples
> 5oz of crushed flax seed
> 50z of yogurt
> 1 can of sardines
*****
I recommend you get rid of everything but the chicken backs and
whatever your other "RMBs" are, and that you evaluate the worthiness
of those RMBs. I would guess they are predominately bone. Oh, and
the canned sardines--while not raw-can stay as an easy source of
Omega 3 fatty acids. Raw fish would be best however, and no fish is
required.

Your dogs do not need vegetables and fruit (except perhaps in the
mind of the anthropomorphic feeder who believes that dogs eat what--
and how--humans eat. Vegetables and fruit are of no nutritional
value to dogs. And dairy, except as a treat and even then preferably
in its raw, unprocessed condition, is of no particular value either.

Flaxseeds are an inefficient, counterproductive source of essential
fatty acids--what flaxseed oil has is a precursor to linolenic acid,
and converting the precursor (alpha-linolenic acid) to the viable
version requires more energy than the oil is worth. Flaxseed oil in
its own right can cause itching, and the crushed seeds have no more
value than any other roughly processed plant fiber: bulk but no
nutritional value. Flax is not your dogs' friend.

If you want to supplement with Omega 3, use salmon oil or fish BODY
oil or other "marine" oils. In EVERY instance, animal-based oil will
be more useful to a dog than plant-based oil. Ideally (although
perhaps not realistically, alas) the most efficient source of the
proper essential fatty acids (in the healthy proportions) is
pastured, fully grassfed meat, domestic or wild.

Since it would be uneconomical to dump your supply of prefab food, I
recommend you feed through it and when it's gone you do not buy
more. While you are feeding through that stuff, you can do a bit of
catch-up reading to see what you might be feeding instead. You will
find. to your relief I hope, that best way to feed your dogs is also
the easiest and mostly likely the cheapest way.

A good raw diet consists primarily of MEAT. Ideally whole hunks,
chunks, wads, whacks, pieces, sections, strips of the stuff; or
wrapped lusciously, lasciviously, seductively, rapturously around a
section of edible or partially edible bone; or--best!--attached to a
whole appropriate critter. Fully 80% of a dog's diet can be meat
which includes fat, skin and connective tissue as well as flesh).

Little more than 10% fully edible, consumable BONE needs to be fed.
This is not a lot of bone! You do not have to measure this out to
feed a good raw diet, so no, there will not be a test later. This
meager percent is here primarily to remind you that you do not have
to feed much edible bone at all.

My guess is your RMBs are primarily bone. And then there are the
chicken backs you feed for even more bone. If you choose to continue
feeding as you are now, the single change I believe you should make
is stop feeding a 1:1 ratio of bone to meat! For every pound (16
ounces) of that prefab stuff you feed, only 1.6 (one point six)
ounces of bone are needed for nutritional adequacy. Even if you were
to rock out and double the amount of edible bone you provide, you'd
only be feeding a bit over 3 ounces (three ounces).

And how much edible bone are you feeding? Whatever's in the RMBs you
offer (probably at least half the RMB is edible bone) and probably
half a pound (eight ounces) in that pound of chicken backs you feed
every day.

That is a huge amount of edible bone, day after day after day! At
least half that should be replaced with lovely, nutritious meat.

The third element in a good species appropriate diet is ORGAN MEAT.
Overall, perhaps 10% of the diet can be devoted to squishy internal
organs, and of that a mere three to five percent needs to be liver;
the balance can be divvied up across kidney and spleen and glands,
however you can find them.

Heart, tongue and skin, while "officially" organs, are counted as
meat in a good raw diet. So feed lots of heart if you want but it
doesn't fulfill your dogs' need for the really squishy, slimy stuff.

That's it: meat, edible bone, organs. No veggies, no fruit, no
grains, no legumes, no processing, no grinding, no blending.

The food you feed you can find at supermarkets, at ethnic grocers,
though meat wholesalers, from farms and ranches, from hunters, over
the internet. You can buy whole animals (chicken, rabbit, turkey,
fish), you can buy parts (pork, lamb, goat, venison), you can even
include ground meats (specialty meats like emu or ostrich or green
tripe) in a good raw diet.

I urge you to browse the list archives for topics of interest.
Here's how: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

Also check out

http://rawfed.com
http://rawfeddogs.net (click on "recipes")
http://rawlearning.com

Have fun!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Re: HOW LONG CAN I HOLD OUT NOT FEEDING STUBBORN CAT :(
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:42 am ((PDT))

> thx casey. i thought once on raw, always raw. not to ever give the dry
> stuff?

Ah, if only it were that simple! Not with cats - some never look back, but
some require a "song and dance" period where it's one step forward, two
steps back...frustrating, but not the end of the world.

>i will try. came home and gave some water based canned
> sardines. she ate about one ounce and up it came.

Yum, regurgitated sardines. Always fun to clean up. Bleh!

>will try again in
> the morning. i just feel bad that allie wants some evo when my other
> bad girl wont budge on raw so i am stuck cuz of the 24 hr thing.

Don't be afraid to use the Evo as a bribe on the raw - you have to do what
works, right?

>
> I like your style. how long on raw for you guys?

Oh...six years, now? Trust me though, I did my fair share of
head-banging-into-wall over switching cats, so I feel your pain.

Casey

Messages in this topic (8)
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4a. Re: Natural Siamese Cats
Posted by: "pet.wellness" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:29 am ((PDT))

As I understand it, there is no breed-specific raw feeding guidelines,
only species appropriate, i.e., dogs, cats, ferrets. Regarding the
issue of zoonosis - diseases transmitted between animals and humans -
Toxoplasmosis is the only one I know of. It's a parasite animals
contract by eating infected meat, by contact with cat feces or by
transmission from mother to fetus. It's fairly rare to find meat
infected with this parasite in the USA. Anything's possible. Just not
likely. Pamela

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "thajoshow" <thajoshow@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Caitlin, I'd love to join this group, as I've been having trouble
> finding Siamese info as well. I wanted to switch my Siamese kitten
> to raw, and have been trying to figure out what would be best for
> him...also concerned about the possibility of him getting parasites
> and passing them to me...I read that this was a problem with feeding
> raw, as supposedly they can pass these things to humans just by
> licking them....

Messages in this topic (5)
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4b. Re: Natural Siamese Cats
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:44 am ((PDT))

Hmmm, the CDC says;
http://www.cdc.gov/healthypets/animals/cats.htm
There are no more possibilities of passing zoonotic diseases from raw
fed cats than kibble fed cats, IMO.
I got Cat Scratch Fever as a child, had a swollen lymph node removed
from my armpit. The kitten was kibble fed.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "thajoshow" <thajoshow@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Caitlin, I'd love to join this group, as I've been having trouble
> > finding Siamese info as well. I wanted to switch my Siamese kitten
> > to raw, and have been trying to figure out what would be best for
> > him...also concerned about the possibility of him getting parasites
> > and passing them to me...I read that this was a problem with feeding
> > raw, as supposedly they can pass these things to humans just by
> > licking them....
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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4c. Re: Natural Siamese Cats
Posted by: "Suzie G" gusmyhairyboy@charter.net gusmyhairyboy
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:41 am ((PDT))

----- Original Message -----
From: thajoshow
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 11:24 PM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Natural Siamese Cats

Hi,Suzie G. here

I have 2 12 year old apple head Siamese. In the past I tried to switch them over to raw (all my dogs eat raw) but either had trouble getting them to eat or had them eat and then found GROSS vomit scattered throughout the house.(especially on my bed!) I would be interested in a group like this.

Suzie G.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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5a. what to do while we're on holiday
Posted by: "Verity-Anne Dokter" verityanne@gmail.com daem0nette
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:06 am ((PDT))

Hi

We have a bit of a problem, in that we're going away on holiday for a
week and the kids are going to their kennel. They are happy to feed
your own food as long as you provide it so last time we had them there
since we started raw, i got premade 1kg bags of ground chicken (with
bones) that just needed to be defrosted and then fed to them (they'd
never agree to feed whole pieces as well as offal etc).

Everything was fine (or so i thought) until the woman mentioned to me
when i fetched them that she'd forgotten to defrost food a couple of
times, and she'd put the bag of food in the microwave to defrost. I
nearly had a fit, because microwaves DON'T defrost evenly and some of
the chicken (around the edges) gets cooked.

Now, we're going away again and i'm not entirely sure what to do. I
know cooked chicken bones are a no-no but how much damage could they
do if they're ground up small anyway? The only alternative i can see
is to buy a bag of good quality kibble and have her feed them that
instead. I'm racking my brain here - but i cant seem to think of
anything else! I know that if i don't think of something soon I'll
spend our whole week away worrying about them. We don't often go away
and when we do we usually take them with us.

Please help! Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Verity

Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: what to do while we're on holiday
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:31 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Verity-Anne Dokter"
<verityanne@...> wrote:
>

You are making a big deal out of nothing. Don't worry about it. A
couple of meals of microwave thawed ground chicken is not a big
deal.
Even if it was put in a regular oven and cooked for 20 or 30
minutes, it still wouldn't be all that bad. Of course a regular diet of that over a long period isn't good, but a few meals doesn't hurt.

A couple of meals of kibble is a much bigger deal and I would never
do that.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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5c. Re: what to do while we're on holiday
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:36 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Verity-Anne Dokter"
<verityanne@...> wrote:
>
They are happy to feed
> your own food as long as you provide it
>(they'd
> never agree to feed whole pieces as well as offal etc).

@@@ Did you ask if they would feed whole pieces?

> The only alternative i can see
> is to buy a bag of good quality kibble and have her feed them that
> instead.

@@@ You could ask that if she forgets to defrost again, that she do
so in warm water instead of the microwave. You could also just leave
boneless meat--a week without bone or offal will do no harm to adult
dogs (I'm assuming we're not talking wee pups here). I doubt that a
short time in the microwave would cook ground bone to the point it
is dangerous. She could also just feed the stuff frozen. Unless you
have tiny dogs that might get chilled eating frozen food.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: next best thing
Posted by: "saphiradane" saphiradane@yahoo.com saphiradane
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:06 am ((PDT))

>
>

those who really and truly WANT to do something will always
> find a way to do it. Likewise, those who do NOT deeply want to do
> something -- although they might like the appearance of wanting to
do
> it -- will always have reasons why they just, goshdarnit, can't do
it.
>(First to my mind: what does your friend himself
> eat? And why can't the dog utilize similar food sources? I
> sincerely doubt your friend eats nothing but kibble while traveling
> for weeks on end!)
>
> But if you're looking for someone to pat you and your friend on the
> back and say, there there, you tried, but I guess he can't feed
raw --
> well, we're not the group to do it.
>
> -- sandy & griffin
>
As I mentioned I am new at raw as wells as this list. I truly
want to help this dog or I would not have ask for help on a subject
that I knew may be sensitive.Clearly we are trying to find a way. I
dont want a pat on the back. I was looking for experienced advice.To
provide more info: the owner eats whatever, sometimes he out, often
lunchmeat or sandwhiches not exactly healthy,; but it the dog we are
helping. He has a cooler but still u can only fit so much in a
cooler. They both sleep in the truck the back seat to be exact.
Sometimes they are gone for over a month at a time. Also they
sometimes go across the Canada border. That is an issue because no
beef is allowed or ruminant.We have already had that problem and the
dog is not on raw yet. The dog is a 45lb blue heeler if that is
important. Any other info that will help please let me know. Thanks
for ur advice. Felicia

Messages in this topic (10)
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6b. Re: next best thing
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:49 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "saphiradane" <saphiradane@...>
wrote:
>
> To
> provide more info: the owner eats whatever, sometimes he out,
often
> lunchmeat or sandwhiches not exactly healthy,; but it the dog we
are
> helping. He has a cooler but still u can only fit so much in a
> cooler.

@@@ I've traveled across the country with dogs on several occasions.
I do not worry about feeding the dogs--there are grocery stores
everywhere. When I stop for a snack for myself, I can cruise by the
meat isle and see what is on sale and feed that.

> Also they
> sometimes go across the Canada border. That is an issue because no
> beef is allowed

@@@ Canada, last time I was there, also had grocery stores. No need
to take food across the border.

> The dog is a 45lb blue heeler if that is
> important. Any other info that will help please let me know.

@@@ If there is room in the truck for a bag of kibble, there is room
for another cooler. If cost is an issue, before he leaves on a trip,
pack the cooler with frozen raw foods in meal portions. As they are
used up, replace with ice to keep the rest frozen. That should keep
a small dog in food for a couple of weeks. If cost is not an issue,
he can feed the dog from the same grocery stores he goes to. Prices
may fluctuate some across the country, but a 44# dog doesn't eat
that much, really.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (10)
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6c. Re: next best thing
Posted by: "Ross Senger" rosssenger@shaw.ca rosssenger
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:36 am ((PDT))

> @@@ Canada, last time I was there, also had grocery stores. No
> need
> to take food across the border.

I live in Canada and can second this statement :P

When I travel I pack a small cooler with meat (generally I can get about 2-3 days to start), Then I just hit up grocery stores wherever I go.

I feed two Great Danes, so it is about 5-6 lbs per day... a little more expensive but absolutly do-able

-Ross S

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7a. Newbie - just took the plunge
Posted by: "sgubernatis" sgubernatis@clearviewcatv.net sgubernatis
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:11 am ((PDT))

Good morning, all. I've been lurking for a week or two, reading
messages from July and June. I think I understand. What's to
understand? It's all so very simple.

I have boxers. I'm a very small time breeder who only breeds when I
want something for the show ring. Since September I have lost 4
(four) boxers. Three to cancer and 1 to cardio problems. To say the
least I am in shock. I currently have a 7 year old bitch (Jane) and
a 17 month old dog (Elvis). Elvis has always been a terrible eater.
I would buy a kibble product (not a cheap one), mix with some canned
and he would eat it for 3 or 4 meals and then refuse it. So of
course, I would go on a desperate search for something he would eat.

I was at dog shows about a month ago and I stopped to talk to one of
the vendors that I have known for years. He is a distributor for
several "good" brands of dog food. I asked him if there was anything
on the market that no dog could refuse. He's a good guy and instead
of trying to sell me something he distributes he suggested trying a
raw diet. Of course he was talking about a pre-made but he had no
financial interest in the pre-made. He even told me where to find
it. Turned out the store was about 3/4 mile from my house. So I
immediately (on the way home from the show!) stopped and my dogs were
on Nature's Variety that night. He loved it. Of course, my boxer
bitch will eat anything that doesn't eat her first! After a few days
I added some chicken necks. Both were thrilled and were very 'sane'
about eating them. A lot of crunching going on.

Then I found this list. I've been lurking and learning. So last
night I took the plunge. I gave each of them a chicken quarter.
Jane was thrilled. She sniffed and licked for about 30 seconds
before she dove in. Elvis (who always takes his cue from Jane)
licked and licked and licked. He kept watching Jane. Now he knows
if he walks away from his food she will get it. I've been using that
to my advantage. When Jane finishes eating I call her to my side and
she will wait with me while Elvis is eating. It's kind of a peer
pressure thing and it has helped with Elvis. Anyway, he licked and
sniffed and pushed it around. He really wanted to eat it but
couldn't quite figure out how to begin. Finally, after about 40
minutes he figured it out! What fun! It was really thrilling to
watch these dogs actually having fun with their food. When Elvis was
finished he actually strutted around like he was some big alpha stud
dog. It was so obvious that this is what he needed. He was trying
to tell me all along by refusing his kibble. I finally got the
message.

After months and months and months of pulling my hair out trying to
get him to a show weight he is finally happy to eat and it's not an
issue anymore. I have a bit of the Nature's Variety left and will
finish that out but from then on it's going to be fresh raw meat and
bones with a touch of organ meat. It's so easy. My dogs are happy
and so am I.

Thanks so much for being there. Can't guarentee that I won't ask
some stupid question in the future so be patient with me.

I don't expect to wipe out cancer in my house but at least I know my
dogs are not getting a bunch of additives.

Sue Gubernatis
Forest Hill Maryland

Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: Newbie - just took the plunge
Posted by: "cresco299" gentry.jeffrey@yahoo.com cresco299
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:49 am ((PDT))

> What fun! It was really thrilling to watch these dogs actually
having fun with their food.

> Sue Gubernatis
> Forest Hill Maryland

I totally agree! On occasions when I have the time to sit and watch,
I've found it to be a very rewarding experience. My youngest, Sassy,
absolutely loves playing with the last bit of food before she swallows
it whole. She'll toss it up into the air repeatedly and prance around
the yard like she's won a prize.

A simple pleasure that starts the day off right!

Jeff

Messages in this topic (3)
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7c. Re: Newbie - just took the plunge
Posted by: "Sue Gubernatis" sgubernatis@clearviewcatv.net sgubernatis
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:51 am ((PDT))

I forgot to mention that my Jane has wiped out the groundhog population at
my house. Since spring she has caught and killed 5 groundhogs. Either she
got them all or the rest decided to pick up house and move on. I guess the
first time was solely by accident. I let them out into the fenced yard and
they go running behind the garage up on the hill. I heard a loud commotion
and went running. Within seconds she had killed the groundhog. Elvis was
standing close by cheering her on. They were both so excited. We took it
away from her before she could eat it because we didn't know anything about
raw feeding at that point. My dogs are, of course, current on their rabies
shots. Well after the first time whenever I let them out of the house they
go tearing out like mad dogs in anticipation of catching another groundhog.
Each time I have gone over her from head to toe looking for any injuries.
She has never had a scratch on her. She must be an efficient hunter. I
took a look at one of those creatures and they have huge teeth and claws.
Yet she has never had a scratch. She did devour one before we got it away
from her. We, of course at that point, were horrified. She was as pleased
as punch with herself.

Sue Gubernatis
Forest Hill, MD

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8. new to this group
Posted by: "Jennifer" cadet972@yahoo.com cadet972
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:46 am ((PDT))

Hello,

I will be breeding siberians here soon. I have several adults that I am
trying to get on the raw diet. Here my question what a good base diet
for the pack. the weight run 62 lbs(sabastian, male); 50 lbs(bear,
male); 50 lbs(ice, female); 46 lbs(diamond, female); 45 lbs(arctic,
male); 43 lbs(lighting, female); 5 lbs(aurora, female pup 7 weeks).
Aurora and bear never had raw they are the new additions. I am feeding
turkey necks and preparied raw diet. I trying to find other appropiate
foods for them, they like deer & fish.

Jennifer

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9. I love my vet!
Posted by: "millser25" millser25@yahoo.com millser25
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:47 am ((PDT))

I brought my kitty in for his regular check up and senior panel this
week. Of course, the vet checked his teeth and remarked about how
gross they are. (I know! They are disgusting!) I sheepishly
explained how I would rather maintain a friendly relationship with my
kitty than brush his teeth regularly. But, then went on to remind him
that we feed raw to our dog, and that I've renewed my many failed
attempts to switch the cat over as well. The vet was actually
overjoyed that I decided to try again! He had all kinds of
suggestions for ways to bribe and fool the cat into eating raw, and
even some suggestions for stores where I can get whole ground chicken
(bones and organs included) to get him started. He basically said
"run, don't walk, to the store and buy this cat some raw food." He
said he'd rather I had a healthy cat than give him all kinds of money
for dental cleanings and kidney treatments, etc.
Best of all, having the vet's endorsement has helped nudge my husband
into thinking that I'm not a crazy hippie extremist.
Our vet is a totally normal guy. He's not a naturopath, or a
homeopath, or well versed in oriental theories. He's just your
average American vet who happens to believe that dogs and cats aren't
designed to eat our manufactured kibble and canned food.
If anyone in the Portland Oregon area is looking for a vet that puts a
lot of thought into the medicine he practices and is responsible with
his client's money, I'd be happy to pass along his name and number.
What a thrill to have a vet that encourages and supports our decision
to feed our pets a healthy diet!
Erica, Oliver, Pedro, and Ronin.

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10a. Re: Orange Roughly from NZ
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:48 am ((PDT))

>in Australia, orange roughy is regarded as an excellent fish for humans!! It's very expensive >to buy here, and often in short supply,

Hi,Bob.Thank you for your posting. Orange roughly is real new to me and never seen before ,never heard of,but I picked up and I guess it was good one,then.

The price-wise,it was not as cheap as shark fillet that I have got before(1 fillet 1 dollar),but it was so so price;1 package 3 dollars;I am thinking if was around 0.78lb or something.
It was not trociously expensive and i am kind of adventurous person for food field ( I try new thing when I find one),so,I got it.It is now in freezer but I think I feed palette next week.

If someone wanted to know where I got it,it was at frozen section of seafood counter of Giant.

It was not whole fish but still my dog can get different taste of different fish and i get to taste maybe some:-P Can't wait!

Thanks Bob.

yassy

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11. calcium/phosphorous ration
Posted by: "swilken61" powrfemme@aol.com swilken61
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:36 am ((PDT))

Hello All,

I'd like some advice on the calcium/phosphorous ratio. If I am
feeding meat and bones do I need to worry. I am feeding two dogs, 10
lb and 15 lb, and one cat 10 lb. The more I read through this post,
I'm thinking I need advice on fine tuning also.

I feed them mostly chicken and lamb right now, I've only been at it
about a month or so, and I will be adding turkey, and possibly rabbit
when I can find it.

For the dogs: I chop up chicken breast and legs into chunks, leaving
the bone of course. If their stool get to hard, I cut back on the
bone a bit. I am also giving them liver, gizzards, and hearts (I just
found turkey hearts). I keep the chunks bigger than bite size so they
will realy have to chew them, on Sundays they get an egg meal
(softboiled so that the whites are cooked but the yolks are soft, and
then they fast until Monday. I do the same with the lamb. If I feed a
chicken leg or a breast, can I assume the calcium/phosphorus ration
is okay?

One of my dogs is prone to UTIs and the other has pancreatitis, so I
remove some of the fat from her meals. I give berry balance three
times a week fot the UTI girl and digestive enzymes for the
pancreatitis girl. I also give them a multivitamin supplement and a
calcium supplement if it seems like they haven't had enough bone,
nutitional yeast on occaision, and some kelp. They get a bully stick
a couple of times a week.

The cat, she is a little more stubborn and we are still transitioning
her. She took to lamb almost immediately, then threw it up, so we are
sticking to chichen mixed with her favorite wet food. She does still
get some dry food, I have a sabatuer in the house who isn't totally
convinced. That is, she sees how much better the dogs are, but the
cat is her baby and she worries that I am "forcing her to eat food
she doesn't like". My concern is that since she doesn't eat much bone
just yet, is she getting enough calcium and when should I really
worry about that? I do give her a calcium supplement and the
multivitamin supplement. If I eventually get her to eat chicken
necks, how much will be the right amount for her calcium? She does
seem to like the liver, the gizzard I tried for the first time last
night and she wasn't impressed. I've read some posts saying that
chicken necks alone are too bony.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

stephany

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12a. Re: Gauge
Posted by: "lizwehrli" lizwehrli@yahoo.com lizwehrli
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:37 am ((PDT))

Hi Tracey,

I am so sorry for your loss. My heart goes out to you.

I also have standard poodles, Gus and Emma. Gus has addisons disease
which is any adrenal insufficiency. It isn't an uncommon disease in
stnadards, in fact UC Davis is trying to find a genetic marker to help
in the breeding to eradicate the disease. Symptoms are inappetance,
lethargy, hind end weakness and a whole host of other things. There
is a website www.addisondogs.com that helped me figure out what was
wrong with him.

Liz

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "frustrated_tracey" <wagc@...> wrote:
>
> My 15 week old standard poodle puppy died tonight.
>
>
> Tracey
>

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