[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11863

There are 16 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Newbie to puppy rawfeeding, and fat question
From: Giselle
1b. Re: Newbie to puppy rawfeeding, and fat question
From: a.flynn@optusnet.com.au

2a. Re: Feeding and spices
From: carnesbill
2b. Re: Feeding and spices
From: alliecaracleo
2c. Re: Feeding and spices
From: Susanne MacLeod

3a. Re: Going fishin'...have questions
From: dancingbarefoot_11

4a. Re: Pork Loin
From: linoleum5017

5a. Re: HOW LONG CAN I HOLD OUT NOT FEEDING STUBBORN CAT :(
From: Casey Post
5b. Re: HOW LONG CAN I HOLD OUT NOT FEEDING STUBBORN CAT :(
From: alliecaracleo

6a. Re: Orange Roughly from NZ
From: Bob Allanson

7a. Re: Natural Siamese Cats
From: thajoshow

8a. Re: Raw Feeding in OZ (was: offal variety - how necessary?)
From: Lindsay Dorian
8b. Re: Raw Feeding in OZ (was: offal variety - how necessary?)
From: bluegracepwd

9. Gauge
From: frustrated_tracey

10. Where's it gone.
From: Margaret

11. New to Raw: Is this diet okay?
From: cadence_nakashima

Messages
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1a. Re: Newbie to puppy rawfeeding, and fat question
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:16 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Ann!
Lol, it is so different feeding the "littles" after being used
to feeding the "bigs", isn't it? My first Newfy pup was 12lbs at 8
weeks old (the runt of a 12 pup litter), my first Schip was, maybe, 1
1/2lbs at that age!

Chicken wings are, generally, too bony, unless attached to the whole
chicken, where you can cut off a bit of the breast to go with it. Why
not try some Game Hens? These are really chickens, but slaughtered at
a younger age, and so very small, with consequently smaller, softer
bones. Feeding him a 1/4 of a Game Hen (sometimes called Rock Cornish
Hen or just Cornish Game Hen) might be more his speed.

If he passes up any meal, then yaks up yellow bile (YBV ; )) later,
with or without grass, its generally because he was expecting a meal,
the digestive system produced bile to digest the meal that didn't
happen, and he needed to get rid of it. Perfectly normal. I wouldn't
rush to feed him then, just wait 'til the next meal.

Offer him the size portions that he will engage with. If its too much
food for him, take it up when he walks away and offer it at the next
meal. Try to find smaller 'prey', like the Game Hens and maybe rabbit
that have smaller softer bones to encourage him to tackle them.
Meatymeat meals are OK, the diet should only have 10% edible bone, so
you can offer him a big chunk of turkey, beef, lamb or pork without a
bone as a meal in between meals with bones he can handle. Pups need to
develop body and jaw strength and have to get their adult teeth to be
really effective on the larger, tougher bones, especially the little guys.

For myself, I'd stick with a portion size, say, 1/4 of a Game Hen or
the equivalent, and see what happens. If he tackles them, and eats
most of it at the meals when he seems hungry, then offer him the
'leftovers' or a smaller chunk of meat for the next couple of meals.
If he gets 'fluffy', cut back a bit, or skip a meal once in a while.

I always thought the first meal of the day and the last were the most
important for young pups. If they decided they were too busy or not
hungry for the middle two meals, then they weren't going to be going
without food for very long, after all.

Raw fed pups tend to look leaner than kibble fed. But they also tend
to be heavier than they look. They also grow more slowly, and have
fewer growth spurts - by that I mean they seem to grow more evenly.
They reach the same size as adults as their kibble fed littermates,
but with less roly-poly puffiness.

If you are worried about fat, just cut off the visible fat from
chicken parts, or cut meatier collops from chunks of lamb or pork and
avoid the fat.

I like to cut heart and gizzard up into teensy tiny (1/4 the size of
your little pinky fingernail) little bits to use for training treats.
Its good for them and I just pull what I want to use out of the fridge
onto a paper towel for a 1-2 minute session.

The 'rule of thumb' for newbies is to feed 2-3% of your pup's expected
adult weight. Its only a guideline, as small/tiny and active pups and
dogs may need 4-5% or more and large/giant breeds or inactive pups and
dogs may need as little as 1-2%. You have to start somewhere, and then
you can be flexible and adjust.

The other 'rule of thumb' guideline is; 80% meat, (muscle, fat, skin,
connective tissue, anything that isn't bone or organ) 10% edible bone
and 10% organ (1/2 of that should be liver). This isn't a hard and
fast rule, either, and should be adjusted over time for dogs/pups new
to raw, dogs with health concerns, older dogs, and whenever you feel
the need to be flexible because your dog is telling you should be.

Keep asking Qs, its the only way to figure things out!
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Thanks for your reply. That is exactly I have felt....like he is
going to STARVE and not grow properly! I have always had large dogs.
This is what I said about feeding my mini foxie pup in my original post:
<snip>
> You asked whether I am giving big chunks for him to wrestle with. I
wish!!! What I am finding is that he seems completely daunted by big
chunks of anything. e.g. I find if I give the chicken thigh (and I
mean a rear chicken quarter, without the drumstick) whole, he will
look at it and walk away, but if I cut that in half he will put in the
effort to eat it. I feel that he is a bit of a lazy eater and I do
feel that he is training me to fuss over him, and I so like a dog that
just eats!! What size chunks should he be able to handle at his size
and age?
>
> Also the thigh pieces, and lamb chops have quite big fatty bits on
them. How much fat is too much. I have read that too much fat can
cause pancreas problems....is this true?
>
> Thanks, Ann.
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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1b. Re: Newbie to puppy rawfeeding, and fat question
Posted by: "a.flynn@optusnet.com.au" a.flynn@optusnet.com.au flynn_nn
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:38 pm ((PDT))

Thanks Giselle,

What a big difference in size between your breeds of dog!! Thanks for your ideas and suggestions.

I like the idea of the game hens but I have never seen them or cornish hens here at all. Do any Aussies reading know what we call them and where to get them? Don't know where to get rabbit either. ( I am in the Newcastle area). But anyway, I will ask around and see what I can get him that is a bit smaller. Though he does manage the chicken thigh bones really well when he feels like bothering.

I can see that chicken wings are too bony by themselves and need to feed meatier pieces. Then I will just take up what he doesn't eat at one meal and put it away for the next meal.

He is an extremely active and on the go sort of pup. I thought that would make him want to eat more, as he must be burning a lot of energy. I guess he is getting enough though as he is growing and looking healthy. I will weigh what he eats for a couple of days, to check he is getting enough, according to the suggested percentages, just to make sure.

I'm glad the vomitting is nothing to worry about.

Thanks again,
Ann.

> Giselle <megan.giselle@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi, Ann!
> Lol, it is so different feeding the "littles" after being used
> to feeding the "bigs", isn't it? My first Newfy pup was 12lbs at 8
> weeks old (the runt of a 12 pup litter), my first Schip was, maybe, 1
> 1/2lbs at that age!
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. Re: Feeding and spices
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:30 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Susanne MacLeod" <suzmacleod@...>
wrote:
>
> Is there any harm in this - other then the furkids, stealing
> my credit
> card and calling the local butcher for delivery?

It's cool, do it. I do the same with my dogs and salmon and filet
mignon or any other meat leftovers. No bones of course.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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2b. Re: Feeding and spices
Posted by: "alliecaracleo" alliecaracleo@yahoo.com alliecaracleo
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:04 am ((PDT))

so cooked ok once in awhile?

Denise

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Susanne MacLeod" <suzmacleod@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Is there any harm in this - other then the furkids, stealing
> > my credit
> > card and calling the local butcher for delivery?

>

Messages in this topic (5)
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2c. Re: Feeding and spices
Posted by: "Susanne MacLeod" suzmacleod@rogers.com skull25ca
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:51 am ((PDT))

Thnaks Bill...they loved their rare steak last night!!!! Too funny.
Suz

Messages in this topic (5)
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3a. Re: Going fishin'...have questions
Posted by: "dancingbarefoot_11" dancingbarefoot_11@yahoo.com dancingbarefoot_11
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:31 pm ((PDT))

#1 catfish don't have poison, however their slime is very irritating
when it gets into broken skin, so all I would do is clip the fins like
you said. you can leave the barbels (whisker's) many people falsely
believe that they can sting you with them. Not true a cat fish's
whiskers a sensory device.
As for crayfish unless you have a really small dog I wouldn't worry as
long as the dog chews its food. otherwise I would kill the crawdad
first before feeding.
OK, here would be the concerns for fish here in northern Wisconsin.
Bluegills from certain lakes can have PCB's. The others fish listed
can build up Mercury in their system. PCB's and Merc mainly get into
the fishes ecosystem thru rain water which can travel large distances.
Both toxins are stored in the fat. If there is PCB and Merc in the
system, the larger/older/more predatory fish will have the highest
concentrations. the fish from almost all of the lakes up here would be
just fine, especially if you dog isn't a bitch you plan on breeding.
if you are worried I would cut out the belly meat and throw that away
since that is where most of the fat on a fish is stored. if you want
info a little more specific, many states have health warnings for
certain watersheds or fish species listed on their DNR's web site.

hope this helps

Kris

Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: Pork Loin
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:34 pm ((PDT))

> Catherine R. wrote,

> Lynn,
>
> bone-in pork of any size or shape is just hunky dory... except
stuff like pork chops where the bone is cut long ways with a saw..

Yah, well, it was a 20 lb. loin, then they cut it with a saw into
1/5" hunks, (chops) Not exactly 'long-ways?' or is it? Does have
sharp places..... still not sure if it's thumbs up or down???????
>
> go to the local asian market and buy pork snouts and/or faces.
Keeps them
> busy for hours and you laughing the entire time.
>
Yes, I'm gearing up to try this out.... never thought to find them
at an asian market - thanks.

Lynne

Messages in this topic (10)
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5a. Re: HOW LONG CAN I HOLD OUT NOT FEEDING STUBBORN CAT :(
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:25 pm ((PDT))

> Do cats have to just eat a morsel, so to speak for kidneys not to go
> into whatever they do with not eating for 24hrs? or do they have to
> eat a substantial amt?

Denise,

Liver failure, not kidneys...but yes, eating too little for too long also
puts a cat at risk, so teeny amounts may not be enough over time...she needs
to eat more.

Having been there (and yes, I've BEEN there, believe me, I've been THERE!),
I can tell you that sometimes with cats, it's two steps forward, one step
back. Also, creativity counts and you get extra points (and gold stars) for
being clever enough to figure out something that works for that cat at that
time...

That said, it's likely it's the smell of the Evo that's distracting her -
make that work for you! Crush some Evo over her raw to "stink it up" for
her (think of it as a seasoning) and see if that gets her going again in the
right direction. If it doesn't, don't despair - this cat is only 11 years
old! Lots of time for both of you to get the whole raw thing worked out -
my old girl didn't even *start* down the raw road until she was 14 and it
took two YEARS to get her all the way switched over - right now, she's
sitting next to me, age 20, pushy as ever. Deaf as a post, but still
pushy...especially around 4am, lately...

Above all, relax. It's not a race, it's not something that you need to
stress over...it's more of a...game. Yeah, think of it as an ongoing game
of cooperation between you and the cat - you each have to learn what the
other wants and work within the other's parameters. In the end, your goal
is the same - happy, healthy cat, yes? Don't be afraid to try something odd
or something that didn't work before (especially bribe foods) - cats are
strange creatures with a fluid sense of reality. What was wonderful
yesterday may be completely foul today, what was foul today may be a
fantastic treat tomorrow. If you let it frustrate you, it'll drive you mad
(and the cat will be confused as to why you've gone round the bend when all
she was doing was being a cat?).

Remember our unofficial rawcat motto - If at first you don't succeed, try,
try, try, try, try, try, try, try, try, try, try, try, try again. And if
that doesn't work, resort to thanking your lucky stars that you're trying to
switch a cat and not a ferret - some of them have reputations for being even
*harder* to switch than cats, if you can believe that!

Casey (who knows that a cat must see a food at least 62 times before it
becomes even remotely edible in the cat's mind)

Messages in this topic (7)
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5b. Re: HOW LONG CAN I HOLD OUT NOT FEEDING STUBBORN CAT :(
Posted by: "alliecaracleo" alliecaracleo@yahoo.com alliecaracleo
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:05 am ((PDT))

GOOD MORNING TO ALL HERE IN CALIF. dont know how much to trim. sorry
if its too long but then someone wont get a jist of this.

thx casey. i thought once on raw, always raw. not to ever give the dry
stuff? i will try. came home and gave some water based canned
sardines. she ate about one ounce and up it came. will try again in
the morning. i just feel bad that allie wants some evo when my other
bad girl wont budge on raw so i am stuck cuz of the 24 hr thing.

I like your style. how long on raw for you guys?

HAVE A GOOD ONE EVERYONE
DENISE

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Casey Post" <mikken@...> wrote:
>
>
> > Do cats have to just eat a morsel, so to speak for kidneys not to go
> > into whatever they do with not eating for 24hrs? or do they have to
> > eat a substantial amt?
>
> Denise,
>
> Liver failure, not kidneys...but yes, eating too little for too long
also
> puts a cat at risk, so teeny amounts may not be enough over
time...she needs
> to eat more.
>
> Having been there (and yes, I've BEEN there, believe me, I've been
THERE!),
> I can tell you that sometimes with cats, it's two steps forward, one
step
> back. Also, creativity counts and you get extra points (and gold
stars) for
> being clever enough to figure out something that works for that cat
at that
> time...
>
> That said, it's likely it's the smell of the Evo that's distracting
her -
> make that work for you! Crush some Evo over her raw to "stink it

>

Messages in this topic (7)
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6a. Re: Orange Roughly from NZ
Posted by: "Bob Allanson" llan@ozemail.com.au llan1965
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:38 pm ((PDT))

In Australia, orange roughy is regarded as an excellent fish for humans!! It's very expensive to buy here, and often in short supply, as it is an endangered deep-sea fish and a lot of "pirates " go after it, in defiance of the rules on sustainability.
Cheers, Judy (whose dog Wallace will never taste orange roughy!)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: Natural Siamese Cats
Posted by: "thajoshow" thajoshow@yahoo.com thajoshow
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:46 pm ((PDT))

Hi Caitlin, I'd love to join this group, as I've been having trouble
finding Siamese info as well. I wanted to switch my Siamese kitten
to raw, and have been trying to figure out what would be best for
him...also concerned about the possibility of him getting parasites
and passing them to me...I read that this was a problem with feeding
raw, as supposedly they can pass these things to humans just by
licking them....

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Caitlin Heath <c.r.heath@...>
wrote:
>
> Permission to crosspost.
>
> I've done a lot of searching on Yahoo and cannot find a list
addressing the needs of us individuals raising our Siamese (both
Classic and Traditional) using rawfeeding, homeopathy and without
vaccinations.
>
> I asked on one of the sister lists if there was interest in
creating a list for this purpose and there was. It would be
supplemental to the lists here, more general but breed specific.
>
> If anyone would like to join, please email me privately! I'm
working on getting the list started right now and will post a link
soon.
>
>
> Caitlin
>
> Everything in moderation, including moderation.
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. Re: Raw Feeding in OZ (was: offal variety - how necessary?)
Posted by: "Lindsay Dorian" iamentropygirl@gmail.com irwin_bird
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:03 am ((PDT))

Hi Kerry,

I am another OZ raw feeding and I also wish it was easier to find variety (
I am north of Cairns)

Do you also have trouble finding meat at reasonable prices? I read about
people on this list paying on average $1/lb so that would be ~$2/Kg

I NEVER see meat for that price, except maybe very heavily discounted
chicken, but of course they can't live on bony chicken parts.

I do get a good deal on chicken carcasses but that's pretty much bone.

How do other OZ raw feeders deal with it?

Lindsay

P.s. I'm not concerned with the cost per say, just curious..

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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8b. Re: Raw Feeding in OZ (was: offal variety - how necessary?)
Posted by: "bluegracepwd" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:10 am ((PDT))

Hi Lindsay,

I'm just west of Melbourne. It's taken me years to find my suppliers,
but they are just solid gold.

I got a call from one today who said he had 8 goats if I wanted them.
I chose to take 4, and passed the other 4 off to one of my friends.
So for 4 goats and about 30kg of offal, it's costing $60.

cheers,

Jane
www.bluegrace.com

Messages in this topic (2)
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9. Gauge
Posted by: "frustrated_tracey" wagc@sasktel.net frustrated_tracey
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:04 am ((PDT))

My 15 week old standard poodle puppy died tonight.
I took him to the vet this afternoon because he was vomitting and
lethargic. They put in subcutaneous fluids and then I took him home,
they said if he doesnt feel better then come back in the morning, he
tried to drink but it looked like his mouth or tougue wasn't working.
I tried to give him fliuds with a baby siringe but that did't work.
He was sloppering a sticky slobber all over. grey gums. I checked on
him every few minutes then one time he was laying there and fluid
dirareah was seeping from him. I called the vet who was 1/2 hour away
about 11:00 pm and by the time I got there he was gone.

They think it was severe heatstroke, he had shade, fresh water and a
kiddy pool which he never went in but he did today, that's where I
first found him. but I'm getting him tested for Parvo just in case
cause I have his brother and my 14 year old toy poodle here also.

Needless to say I am a basketcase and I'm hoping it wasnt parvo. His
brother Ruger is in fine condition right now but I am keeping a close
eye on him.

Tracey

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10. Where's it gone.
Posted by: "Margaret" margaret.abate@ntlworld.com filardifilardi
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:05 am ((PDT))

I have sent 3 post's to you in the last few days, non of them have
appeared on here, where do they go??
Margaret.

Messages in this topic (1)
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11. New to Raw: Is this diet okay?
Posted by: "cadence_nakashima" cadence_nakashima@yahoo.ca cadence_nakashima
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:09 am ((PDT))

+++Mod note: please sign all emails ++++++++++

Hi everyone! I'm the proud owner of an almost 2 year old APBT and an
almost 3 year old Rott/Dobe. The APBT is a good healthy weight for
his bone structure and the rott/dobe I try to keep a bit on the
lighter side to prevent hip issues for farther down the road.

A little over 4 months ago, I switched to raw cold turkey with
Nature's Variety medallions. I was afraid that I didn't have enough
knowledge to make my own raw diet and thought it would be a good
transition. The dogs loved it, and within days I saw a significant
reduction in poo as well as the "quality" of their poo (more solid).
I quickly discovered that they didn't take to the "game-ier" meats,
like rabbit but put up with venison.

This is currently what I feed per day:

1lb of a "meat mixture" from the butcher's shop (70% ground beef,
20% offal and 10% lamb)

~ 1lb of chicken backs

I tried a diet I got from another raw feeding friend for one batch,
but before I went through the trouble of making it up again, (it
took over an hour for not even three days worth of food), I wanted
to make sure it was a complete diet.

8lbs of the dog meat mixture
1lb of carrot, spinach and alfafa grass
1lb of blueberries and apples
5oz of crushed flax seed
50z of yogurt
1 can of sardines

If there are any other easy diets that don't include the "game-ier"
meats I'd love to hear them and try them out! I tried to feed whole
rabbit to no avail and they also don't seem to take to buffalo meat.

I suppose I should add that on top of the chicken backs that they
get everyday for bone, they also get RMB every few days.

Thanks in advance. : )

Messages in this topic (1)
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