[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11861

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: feeding game birds to hunting dogs
From: blacty

2a. Re: offal variety - how necessary?
From: carnesbill
2b. Re: offal variety - how necessary?
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: Starting raw with a surgery near
From: carnesbill
3b. Re: Starting raw with a surgery near
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: another newbie question
From: carnesbill

5a. Re: reddness from meat???
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: salmon caused illness?
From: costrowski75

7a. Re: yassy, meat variety
From: Yasuko herron

8a. Re: Orange Roughly from NZ
From: Yasuko herron

9a. Re: A Eureka Moment....Hack Saw Heaven!
From: Tracy
9b. Re: A Eureka Moment....Hack Saw Heaven!
From: costrowski75
9c. Re: A Eureka Moment....Hack Saw Heaven!
From: Denise
9d. Re: A Eureka Moment....(frozen food)
From: chaparraltrail
9e. Re: A Eureka Moment....Hack Saw Heaven!
From: cresco299

10a. Need some help here.
From: Margaret
10b. Re: Need some help here.
From: Margaret Martell

11a. Re: Rabbit?
From: Shannon Hully
11b. Re: Rabbit?
From: scarebetty

12a. next best thing
From: Felicia Kost
12b. Re: next best thing
From: chaparraltrail
12c. Re: next best thing
From: Erica Mills
12d. traveling (was Re: next best thing
From: Laurie Swanson

13a. S/O disapproves
From: brake4breyers832
13b. Re: S/O disapproves
From: Sandee Lee

Messages
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1a. Re: feeding game birds to hunting dogs
Posted by: "blacty" Ty@wetlandsod.com blacty
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:13 am ((PDT))

Very good point Chris. My Golden and Setter are very well trained and
obedient. I have no problem controling them in any situation. I
would have to agree with you that if they retrieve and eat the bird,
you have more of a training issue on hand. My dogs have never
attemped to do so, so I am not worried. I have a buddy that I hunt
with that devours his doves before he brings them back. Might be a
problem for him!
Thanks Chris!
Ty

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "blacty" <Ty@> wrote:
> >
> > I was thinking of using my game bird carcases to feed to my bird dogs.
> > Do any of you have any experience doing this? Would I have to worry
> > about my dogs developing a taste for them to where they will eat the
> > bird they are supposed to retrieve?
> *****
> If your hunting dog eats the game it's suppose to hunt, that's a
> training issue not a raw food issue. A trained hunting dog understands
> it may not eat its job. I recommend you review your dog's basic
> training to make sure both of you are clear on the concept.
>
> My retrievers are trained to retrieve the bird in market condition and
> to sit to flush (although sometimes I do have to yell "siddown!"). My
> big Lab retrieves live bitsy baby birds and will not--no way, never, uh-
> uh--eat rabbit or whole fish. My heathen golden bitch that eats whole
> baby goats and rabbits and chickens will kill but otherwise leave
> untouched bunnies that she manages to catch.
>
> It may be that in moments of extreme temptation you dog might break or
> kill a wounded bird, but I also see this in kibblefed dogs. Since it's
> a time honored practice to give the dog heads and guts or the carcass
> after breasting out a duck, my guess is your fears are unfounded IF
> your hunting buddy is properly trained.
>
> If you are still concerned, don't feed the carcasses.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. Re: offal variety - how necessary?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:15 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "zest_741" <zest_741@...> wrote:
>
> All I can find in offal is liver (pork, chicken, lamb, beef & goat)
> and kidneys (pork and lamb). No procesors or abattoirs that I
> can find
> around here.

I think you are probably feeding as much variety or more than most
of us.

> Are liver and kidneys enough if I rotate between the species?

Probably so.

> I feed each about once a week, is that often enough?

Yes.

> Lamb brains are also available but very expensive, are
> they worthwhile
> enough in nutritional terms to add in once a month or so?

Not in my book. I have never fed any brain except for the
occasional rabbit my dogs get.

> I feed tongue and heart too but class them as meat rather than
> offal.

Right.

> My dogs are both Borzoi, one adult and one 8 month old.
> Thanks in advance, I really need some help!

Remember advice is worth exactly what you pay for it. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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2b. Re: offal variety - how necessary?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:23 am ((PDT))

"zest_741" <zest_741@...> wrote:
> I have found it easy to get variety in RMB's and meaty cuts, but not
> offal.
> All I can find in offal is liver (pork, chicken, lamb, beef & goat)
> and kidneys (pork and lamb). No procesors or abattoirs that I can
find
> around here.
> Are liver and kidneys enough if I rotate between the species?
> I feed each about once a week, is that often enough?
> Lamb brains are also available but very expensive, are they
worthwhile
> enough in nutritional terms to add in once a month or so?
*****
Liver and kidney is splendid variety is fine. Brains are definitely
worth feeding if they don't break the bank. If you can save up to feed
them once a month, that, too, would be fine.

The goal is to feed a bit of everything; reality is to do the best you
can. I don't think you have a problem.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Re: Starting raw with a surgery near
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:19 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "pigasus718" <pigasus718@...> wrote:
>
> Should I go ahead and start raw, or wait till a couple of days after
> her surgery when her system has had time to recover a little?

It's just a few days, I would wait if it were me.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Starting raw with a surgery near
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:42 am ((PDT))

"pigasus718" <pigasus718@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I'm new here and have been trying to read up on all the posts.
> My question is, I was planning on starting my two on raw for the
> morning meal tomorrow. I found out saturday that my shih tzu,Lilo,
has
> 3 kidney stones and has to have surgery tuesday and can't be fed
after
> 6pm tomorrow.
> Should I go ahead and start raw, or wait
*****
Wait.
You don't need to compound the uncertainty of the surgery. One stress
at a time.

While he's not eating, junk the kibble; then when he can eat, feed
raw.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: another newbie question
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:20 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "quiltingtuppy" <mamacass@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Like would a small dog
> in the wild only catch and feed on a small animal?

There is no such thing as a small dog in the wild. Small dogs are
human creations. To answer your main question, no, there are no breed
appropriate food, only species appropriate.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
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5a. Re: reddness from meat???
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:33 am ((PDT))

Ivette Casiano <ivettecasiano@...> wrote:
>
> I'm a newbie, have been feeding my 7 yr. yellow lab raw only a few
months. He's doing well but I'd like to know if it's possible for his
fur around his elbows and paws to get orange due to feeding red meats?
*****
Nope. This is from licking. Raw fed or not, red meat or kibble,
licking is the culprit. What you need to do is figure out why your bud
is licking. Could be a food sensitivity, could be seasonal, could be
stress, could be boredom, could be discomfort.

One of my goldens use to lick his elbow calluses (acquired from lying
on hard surfaces) and yes, the hair there would turn orange (although
on an "orange" golden the color was more dark red than orange). Are
you feeding your Lab on a hard surface and is he inclined to lie down
to dine?

Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Re: salmon caused illness?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:59 am ((PDT))

"graceacrestraci" <RTGandA@...> wrote:
>
> My 14 month old dog, eating raw for 2 months, is off his feed and
> moping. I fed him raw salmon about 10 days ago of which he threw it
all
> up and then some. I was told afterward salmon has a parasite.
Anyone
> have any knowledge/experience with this?
*****
If you fed fresh, wild caught salmon from the Pacific Northwest
(lower Alaska south to the mid-California coast and west of the
Cascades), you might want to take him to see the vet, although it's
my understanding the aforementioned parasite produces more profound
symptoms than what you describe.

http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/ClientED/salmon.asp
"Common symptoms of salmon poisoning include:
vomiting
lack of appetite
fever
diarrhea
weakness
swollen lymph nodes 
dehydration

Salmon poisoning is usually fatal if not treated

If untreated, death usually occurs within fourteen days of eating the
infected fish. Ninety percent of dogs showing symptoms die if they
are not treated. Thankfully, salmon poisoning is treatable if it's
caught in time."

If you did not feed fresh wild caught PNW salmon, then it's something
else. Nevertheless, to me it seems like 10 days is plenty long
enough to feel punkish, so unless you've got other possibilities to
consider (lifestyle change, coincidental illness, weather) a looksee
by the vet may still be in order.

Please let us know what you find out.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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7a. Re: yassy, meat variety
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:04 am ((PDT))

>If that is what is available then thats going to be good enough. But always keep an eye >out for more and different kinds of meat.

Thank you . When I fed Rabbit and when my husband saw palette's not thrilled eating(usually she dives in for food) he once mentioned that if she were not enjoying rabbit,then,once we finish off rabbit then pull from menu,she still eat beef,lamb,Turkey,pork,fish,Buffalo..good enough variety.So,I then thought about asking.
In our area in VA,I think chicken(whole chicken 58cents at Ukrop on sale) and pork (ukrop was dollar something per pound for pork picnic or pork butt I forgot which and I usually see pork ribs are dallar something so,Chicken and pork are quite afforadable for us.

I think that if I like to get cost down,I can get usual feeding like beef,chicken etc and buy 1 different meats like goat orr something every month or so to get bit more variety and rotating will be good.

My dog loves pork and she eat pork bone like eating chicken. I once gave her spare rib but she was just crunching down like chicken.

I guess that by definition saying" rawfeeding need variety" means that you cannot feed chicken only for years,I guess then,As long as I have more meat kinds,I be fine.

Thanks again,

yassy

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Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. Re: Orange Roughly from NZ
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:20 am ((PDT))

>There is also a big difference between farm raised and wild

Hi,Catherine. Yes,before switching diet,I was bit care-less about where the fish coming from or how the fish is raised,but it is funny that after switching dog's diet,I pay more attention about origin of fish catching place and I see if farm raised or wild.If I see wild caught fish I buy them over farm raised fish.I think this makes us human eat more smart as well.

Overall,not only my dog but us getting benefit from switching as well.

It is also interesting to go grocery shopping because i I find different kinds of fish almost all the time adding to usual fish like salmon,Tuna etc display on ice. Sometimes,I am lucky enough to get whole fish but sometimes,just fillet available.I do not mind too much about whole or fillet but interesting to get different kinds of fish each week.

And sometimes,you find fish you have never tasted but you eat it and find yourself liking it.I usually keep tiny bit for me to cook and taste from palette's fish lot.She torelate very very well for perch and,I cooked for myself to see what the taste is like. I found it tasty.
Since both like perch now,when I see perch,I get more than half pound but we do not see it very often so stock up when I see it.

Last Saturday,I bought Orange roughly(I believe) from ‚m‚y. Never tasted myself before and have not fed before so,I just gpt half pound. I think I leave just 1 oz or so to cook for me to taste and see how it is.

Anyone has fed Orange Roughly before?

If palette knew I am nibbling off some of her meal,she may not happy about it so, don't tell her about it:-P

yassy

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Messages in this topic (2)
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9a. Re: A Eureka Moment....Hack Saw Heaven!
Posted by: "Tracy" tracy.ramey@sbcglobal.net veganmomma1
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:44 am ((PDT))

> If you've got something big and frozen that needs feeding, give put
> it out and let the dog work on it to its satisfaction.
> Chris O

I give my lab whole chickens frozen solid from time to time. She eats
the entire thing in less than an hour. It's really more like half an
hour. Gee...I hope that's normal! Is she freak to eat that much that
fast? Should I fast her the next day perhaps? The chickens I buy are
about 3 to 4 lbs and I'm sure she could eat two a day if I let her!

Tracy

Messages in this topic (10)
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9b. Re: A Eureka Moment....Hack Saw Heaven!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:58 am ((PDT))

> I give my lab whole chickens frozen solid from time to time. She eats
> the entire thing in less than an hour. It's really more like half an
> hour. Gee...I hope that's normal! Is she freak to eat that much that
> fast?
*****
Seeing as my Lab eats a whole thawed chicken in about three minutes, I
don't consider half an hour especially frightful. If it works for her
and for you, there's no problem.

Should I fast her the next day perhaps?
*****
Why? Nothing you've described warrants a fast. What would that hope
to accomplish? Except for medical reasons, a skipped day typically
follows a big meal. If your girl is eating a whole chicken in short
order and could eat two, she's clearly not getting a "big meal".
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
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9c. Re: A Eureka Moment....Hack Saw Heaven!
Posted by: "Denise" DeniseAndZac@gmail.com puresurrender
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:27 am ((PDT))

my dogger prefers his food frozen too. Why is THAT? The distant DNA
relative wolves certainly didn't eat frozen food.

silly dogs.

Denise

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Messages in this topic (10)
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9d. Re: A Eureka Moment....(frozen food)
Posted by: "chaparraltrail" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:04 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Denise <DeniseAndZac@...> wrote:
>
> my dogger prefers his food frozen too. Why is THAT? The distant
DNA
> relative wolves certainly didn't eat frozen food.
>
> silly dogs.

...and neither did ours! (Cave man with ice cream cone? Or Big Mac?)

silly humans!

;-)

Lori

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9e. Re: A Eureka Moment....Hack Saw Heaven!
Posted by: "cresco299" gentry.jeffrey@yahoo.com cresco299
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:06 pm ((PDT))

>>>...Of course, I wouldn't have carried around a hacksaw either...

Can you imagine? That would be hilarious! If only I could describe
the vision of this in my head- I'm sure you would get a kick out of it
too.

Jeff

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10a. Need some help here.
Posted by: "Margaret" margaret.abate@ntlworld.com filardifilardi
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:06 pm ((PDT))

About 3 weeks ago, Kiera just stopped eating her bones, haven't a clue
why, her mouth is fine, it's been checked, so i can't understand it.
I would be very grateful if anyone has any ideas on this.
Margaret.

Messages in this topic (2)
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10b. Re: Need some help here.
Posted by: "Margaret Martell" zahrammm1@yahoo.com zahrammm1
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:17 pm ((PDT))

Margaret <margaret.abate@ntlworld.com> wrote: About 3 weeks ago, Kiera just stopped eating her bones, haven't a clue
why, her mouth is fine, it's been checked, so i can't understand it.
I would be very grateful if anyone has any ideas on this.
Margaret.

*****
Margaret, one question, how old is Kiera?

Margaret & Zahra

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11a. Re: Rabbit?
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:11 pm ((PDT))

I've been reading all these posts of people with dogs who aren't that
keen on rabbit and it got me thinking. I will be adopting a new
Greyhound in about a month and I have found a local man who is willing
to breed rabbits for me and they're raised running around on a farm
eating naturally. I figured this was the perfect thing. Now I'm just
hoping my new boy likes them! LOL Maybe if I offer rabbit as his
first meat type he'll adjust better, any thoughts?

Shannon H.

Messages in this topic (24)
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11b. Re: Rabbit?
Posted by: "scarebetty" scarebetty@yahoo.com scarebetty
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:10 pm ((PDT))

I've never fed rabbit to my dog, but it's interesting to read these
posts. My son shot a jack rabbit one night and the next day, my dog
went out and brought it home.(nice dog) One day I had whole rabbit,
next day I had a 2 legs in separate pieces, then the next day I had
just ears with a little facial hair -looked kinda like a mask! I
guess that the dogs finally finished it off, ears and all!

Betty

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12a. next best thing
Posted by: "Felicia Kost" saphiradane@yahoo.com saphiradane
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:13 pm ((PDT))

Hello everyone, I am new and I have a quesion that may be off topic, however it involves raw and u all seem very helpful so I thought I would try asking. I have a friend that wants to switch his dog to raw. The problem is he travels often ;about 2-3 weeks a month with the dog. So far we haven't come up with any way of taking along enough raw food for that long of a period. My question is would it be benefical to feed the dog kibble ( I was thinging EVO because it is supposed to mix well and be the next best thing) while he is traveling and raw while he is home? This dog has allergies and I feed raw so I feel that it would benefit him. My concerns are would he adapt to the way they are digested differenly. He would be on raw for a few days to 2 weeks and back on EVO when he travels. I have been told in the past that kibble and raw don't mix, however; as I realy want to help I though I would ask ur opinions. Hopefully someone understands this situation. Thanks for any help
or suggestions Felicia

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12b. Re: next best thing
Posted by: "chaparraltrail" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:41 pm ((PDT))

The only appropriate diet recognized on this list is the prey model of
raw, which is in fact the healthiest way to feed a carnivore.

Because not all of us follow a "prey friendly" schedule, some make
compromises, as needed. It appears not to be appropriate (or at least
not popular) to discuss such compromises on this list. There have
been a lot of excellent suggestions recently about how to feed raw
while traveling, backpacking, etc. They might work well for you. I
feed 100% raw except for a day or two per month...not "perfect," but
most of us aren't feeding fur & feathers to our dogs either (which is
a true prey model), so most of us compromise a bit, one way or
another.

Good luck!

Lori

Messages in this topic (4)
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12c. Re: next best thing
Posted by: "Erica Mills" millser25@yahoo.com millser25
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:10 pm ((PDT))

Felica,
There really is no good reason to feed kibble. When we travel with our raw fed dog, I put individual meals into zip top bags and freeze them solid. Then, I put them in a cooler with some block ice (it lasts WAY longer than cubes). Even if the meat has thawed and isn't up to human consumption standards by the end of the trip, the dog's digestive system can handle it, and it won't be a problem at all. If I am traveling someplace where it isn't feasible or convenient to bring a cooler, we just stop at the grocery stores while traveling. I buy enough to last for a day or two at a time and don't worry about refrigerating it. If neither of these options are acceptable to you, I would suggest purchasing one of the freeze dried raw products. They certainly aren't as good a real food, but way better than kibble.
When I first started on raw, we made that same mistake of traveling with kibble. After a two week period of feeding Innova Evo, I noticed a marked increase in tarter on his teeth, a much less luxurious and dull coat, lethargy, weight gain, and diarrhea. I won't make that mistake twice.
Good Luck,
Erica

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12d. traveling (was Re: next best thing
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:17 pm ((PDT))

Hi Felicia,

What are the specifics of his travel situations? By car? In hotels?
Etc.? There have been some great posts on the subject--try searching
the archives on traveling. Let us know more details and we can help.
I'm sure there's a way to work it out!

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Felicia Kost <saphiradane@...> wrote:
I have a friend that wants to switch his dog to raw. The problem is he
travels often ;about 2-3 weeks a month with the dog. So far we haven't
come up with any way of taking along enough raw food for that long of a
period.

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13a. S/O disapproves
Posted by: "brake4breyers832" pebbles_diehl@hotmail.com brake4breyers832
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:43 pm ((PDT))

Hi everyone,
I have been doing research on switching my dogs to raw for about three
weeks and finally brought it up to my significant other last week. He
thought I was going crazy and said that this was the most out of whack
thing I have said/come up with! Well, long story short, we have two
chi's and a dachshund. One of the chi's is small, like only 2 1/2-3
lb.s small (she is 4 years old too!). I think she would be ok, and I
know her mom would be, but the S/O said he doesn't want to deal with
the doxie getting runny stools and the "inconvenience" of feeding
raw. I know I can convince him and we can change the doxie
eventually, but that is not my question.
I have read on sites recommended here that all dogs will possibly
carry and shed salmonella in their feces. If I am only feeding two of
the three dogs (for now) on raw, will it likely affect the doxie if he
is healthy? I haven't seen him eating the other's poo, but just
thought I would ask.
Thanks so much!

Susan, Chloe, Pip and Frankie

Messages in this topic (2)
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13b. Re: S/O disapproves
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:05 pm ((PDT))

Susan,

Salmonella is commonly found in stool, regardless of what is being fed.
Switching to raw shouldn't make any difference.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "brake4breyers832" <pebbles_diehl@hotmail.com>
I have read on sites recommended here that all dogs will possibly
carry and shed salmonella in their feces. If I am only feeding two of
the three dogs (for now) on raw, will it likely affect the doxie if he
is healthy? I haven't seen him eating the other's poo, but just
thought I would ask.

Messages in this topic (2)
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