[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11867

There are 16 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: calcium/phosphorous ratio - cat bones
From: linoleum5017

2a. Re: Anal Blows
From: jmwise80

3a. Re: ibs update
From: Morledzep@aol.com
3b. Re: ibs update
From: Morledzep@aol.com
3c. Re: ibs update
From: carnesbill

4a. Re: not eating
From: Morledzep@aol.com
4b. Re: not eating
From: Katie
4c. Re: not eating
From: carnesbill
4d. Re: not eating
From: cmhausrath

5.1. Re: Feeding Fish
From: vadaski16

6a. Re: new to this group
From: linoleum5017
6b. Re: new to this group
From: carnesbill

7a. Re: Raw Feeding in OZ (was: offal variety - how necessary?)
From: a.flynn@optusnet.com.au

8. not ripping or tearing the meat- a problem?
From: imaginationdead

9. Re: Anal Blows-definition
From: Amy Baker

10. dog on diet seems starved
From: verrelli

Messages
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1a. Re: calcium/phosphorous ratio - cat bones
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:56 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Shannon Hully" <summerwolf@...>
wrote:
>
> Oddly as soon as I gave him a mouse (the cat, not the hubby!) he
crunched right down and hasn't looked back since! They now get guinea
pigs (my hubby can't watch that one, hehe), rats, chicks, and quail
chicks.
>
> Shannon H.
>

Shannon,

Where do you get those small animals? My cat isn't getting enough
bone, either.

Lynne

Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: Anal Blows
Posted by: "jmwise80" jmwise80@yahoo.com jmwise80
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:58 pm ((PDT))

Are you talking about expressing the anal glands? Like a thick, musty
scent?

If that is what you are talking about, then yes it can get better with
raw. I hesitate to say 100% better because I have had to express my
dogs anal glands once since being on a raw diet. Thats not NEAR as
often as I had to do it before.

Michael Wise

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Re: ibs update
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:10 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 7/31/2007 9:03:26 PM Pacific Standard Time,
lhmcmaken@yahoo.com writes:

am understanding that
one meat a week and then another for a week?? and figured to try pork
next. walmart has shoulder for 108 a pound and I wondered if that was
a richer meat? so thanks. this is a great group. I will keep you
updated on poops, general health and if it helps his nerves. he also
has a wobbly rear end and is there any chance this raw food will help?

Lynda,

as long as it doesn't cause digestive upset.. one type of meat per week works
just fine.. After your dogs are fully adjusted to eating raw there are no
such restrictions..

$1.08/lb for pork is an ok price, not the best, but certainly not bad. Watch
the labels to make sure the meat is not "enhanced" look for something that
says "injected with __% solution of whatever" this is enhanced meat and you
don't want it. The ones you want say "minimally processed" or "all natural".

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (4)
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3b. Re: ibs update
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:24 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 7/31/2007 9:03:26 PM Pacific Standard Time,
lhmcmaken@yahoo.com writes:

he also
has a wobbly rear end and is there any chance this raw food will help?
thanks for taking time to help me.

Lynda,

oops.. i sent it too soon..

as for the wobbly rear end.. maybe body parts with extra glucosamine and
condroitin like chicken and pork feet, tracheas, gullets, beef head meat.. parts
with lots of cartilage will help, but it won't fix it..

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (4)
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3c. Re: ibs update
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 3:58 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "lhmcmaken" <lhmcmaken@...> wrote:
>
> with the support of this group i went raw with my two old danes on
> friday. today is tuesday and their poops are still hard/soft and
> firm/small.

Cool, what you feed will often determine what the stools look like.
Generally, more bone means firmer stools. Less bone or more fat, or
too much organs, or to large of meals often means softer stools.

< i got
> a tub of chicken liver and tossed some into the bowl tonight. both
> are eating well.

If it were me, I'd wait a couple of months to feed organs. They
tend to soften stools so it's good to let their bodies get used to
digesting raw before introducing organs. It won't hurt them to go
that long without them.

> am understanding that
> one meat a week and then another for a week??

In general, yes. All dogs are different. Try a meal of pork and
see what happens. If all is ok, I would alternate between chicken
and pork until you add a third meat.

< walmart has shoulder for 108 a pound and I wondered if that was
> a richer meat?

It's about what I pay but watch for sales and you can get it cheaper.

> he also
> has a wobbly rear end and is there any chance this raw food
> will help?

No the diet won't help the wobbly rear end but get him to a vet ASAP
as it CAN be a sign of a very serious health problem commonly known
as "wobblers disease".

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. Re: not eating
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:18 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 7/31/2007 7:12:22 PM Pacific Standard Time,
kcrockett@mac.com writes:

The only other change in my house is I have 3 foster goldens in HW treatment
- 2 are
eating k*bble and one is eating canned food (I don't have a choice in what
they eat at this
point) . . . I've had these guys since last Thursday . . . but none of my
guys had any eating
issues until this week . . . and no one seems particularly interested in the
food the foster
goldens get in their crates.

Katie,

sounds like Clancy and your schipperke smell the kibble and processed canned
food and are holding out for something better.. DO NOT GIVE IN..

normal healthy dogs will NOT starve themselves.

now the big question in my mind is why are the dogs with HW having to suffer
with kibble and canned food? how is feeding sick dogs poison going to help
them get better?

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (9)
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4b. Re: not eating
Posted by: "Katie" kcrockett@mac.com kcrockettla7
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 3:57 am ((PDT))

If they're just holding out for something better, I'm fine with not giving in. I was just
worried that they were sick.
I'm not sure I understand why they would think kibble and canned food would smell better
to them . . .

The HW dogs are rescue dogs - the rescue group has specified that we cannot feed raw . .
. I may not agree, but them are the rules. :(

...katie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Morledzep@... wrote:
>
> Katie,
>
> sounds like Clancy and your schipperke smell the kibble and processed canned
> food and are holding out for something better.. DO NOT GIVE IN..
>
> normal healthy dogs will NOT starve themselves.
>
> now the big question in my mind is why are the dogs with HW having to suffer
> with kibble and canned food? how is feeding sick dogs poison going to help
> them get better?
>
> Catherine R.
>
>
>
> ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
> http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (9)
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4c. Re: not eating
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 3:59 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Katie" <kcrockett@...> wrote:
>
> How many days do you guys go with a dog not eating before you
start to worry??
>
I have seen or heard of dogs going 4 or 5 days without eating with
no apparant harm. This is not unusual in the beginning stages of
feeding raw but it's not common this late into it.

> Sunday, Clancy (my golden) refused treats at work

What were you using for treats?

> Tonight he licked his chicken a little, but didn't eat.

How is he acting? Does he still seem healthy, happy and enegetic?

> My 12 year old schipperke refused dinner alst night and
> again tonight.

What was on the menu last night and tonight?

> Murphy (border collie/aussie mix) has eaten his dinner
> every night, as has Mister, the
> schip I am fostering. I dont' know if it's related, but
> Murphy and Mister eat in their crates,
> whereas Tonka, Clancy, and Tara eat loose.

It's possibly realated. As a trainer, you know that dogs are very
routine oriented. A break in the routine CAN upset the apple cart
sometimes.

> The only other change in my hosue is I have 3 foster goldens in
> HW treatment - 2 are
> eating k*bble and one is eating canned food (I don't have a
> choice in what they eat at this
> point)

Are your dogs fed with these 3 fosters? in the same room?

> SHould I be worrying about Clancy at this point?

As long as he is acting happy and energetic, I wouldn't worry.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (9)
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4d. Re: not eating
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 5:51 am ((PDT))

"Katie" <kcrockett@...> wrote:

> How many days do you guys go with a dog not eating before you start
to worry??

This is one of those questions like "how much should my dog weigh?" --
it all depends on the individual dog!! You, obviously, know your
dogs better than anyone on an internet list who has never so much as
seen your dogs. So ultimately this will have to be your call,
whether (or when) to worry.

If I am offering my dog dinner, or a special treat, and it's
something he's had before and I know he likes, his refusal would
worry me considerably. With my (very food-motivated) dog, the only
reason he might reject food he liked would be that a thunderstorm was
blowing in. (They no longer freak him out as they used to, but he
does still prefer to lie low until they've passed.)

If I am offering my dog something new, or something he hasn't had
much, or something in a different form from its usual presentation,
and he decides he isn't interested, thank you very much, I don't
worry a bit. My job is to offer good food; his job is to eat it. If
he doesn't want to do his job, that's fine -- I pick up the food as
soon as he leaves it and put it back in the fridge. I offer nothing
else until the next day, when he gets the same thing. I don't think
Griff has ever held out longer than 3 days, which was NO problem at
all for either of us.

> Sunday, Clancy (my golden) refused treats at work ... Then he
> refused dinner that night. ...
> Last night he nibbled a piece of chicken...
> Tonight he licked his chicken a little, but didn't eat.

If this dog is, like my dog, generally an enthusiastic eater, and has
gladly eaten these treats and this chicken before, I would personally
be worried. I would check his teeth, his mouth, and his ears for
potential problems. I would make sure he's drinking water. I would
carefully monitor his overall attitude. If any of those things gave
me further cause for concern, I would probably be visiting the vet.

BUT: big caveat coming up ...

> The only other change in my hosue is I have 3 foster goldens in HW
treatment - 2 are
> eating k*bble and one is eating canned food (I don't have a choice
in what they eat at this
> point) . . . I've had these guys since last Thursday

This sounds like a major stressor, at least potentially. It sounds
like you have a lot of dogs, and maybe pack changes aren't a big deal
for them, but I know this would disrupt my routine and my dog's. I
also know that HW treatment is no fun for the dogs going thru it. If
your golden is at all sensitive -- and it has taken me ages to figure
out that my dog is VERY sensitive, doofy goodnaturedness aside -- he
may just be reacting to the changes in his household. In which case
a trip to the vet would probably only be more stress.

Bottom line: only you can decide the significance of his recent
refusal to eat. Sorry. In and of itself, not eating for 4-5 days,
or even longer, is no big deal for a dog -- but if it represents some
underlying problem, it should obviously be found and addressed asap.

-- sandy & griffin

Messages in this topic (9)
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5.1. Re: Feeding Fish
Posted by: "vadaski16" vadaski16@yahoo.com vadaski16
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:22 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>
> "vadaski16" <vadaski16@> wrote:
> >
> > ***MODERATOR'S NOTE: SIGN YOUR MESSAGES!***
> >
> >
> >
> > do you guys feed fish whole?
> *****
> Yes, whenever possible, but not exclusively.
>
>
> i tried giving my dog fish yesterday and
> > he sniffed it and licked it but he didn't know how to eat it.
> *****
> This is not an unusual response to new food, new textures, new
> smells. He probably didn't know how to eat it, you're right.
>
>
> i tried
> > feeding it to him by hand but then he kinda choked on a bone so i
> > stopped.
> *****
> Kinda choked on a bone how? That doesn't tell me much, alas.
> Perhaps neither of you are quite ready for fish! What were you
hand
> feeding? Small cut up bits, or larger hunks?
>
>
> > i still want him to eat salmon though. any suggestions?
> *****
> Patience, for one.
> You might try a piece of filet for taste, smell and texture, then
> gradually introduce skin and bone-in flesh. My retrievers ate
salmon
> heads right away, but whole fish--salmon or otherwise--continues to
> be pretty close to the bottom of their "must have" list.
>
> Chris O
>
----

I tried giving it whole first but i could see that he was struggling
to eat it so i cut it up into large chunks. he STILL didn't know what
to do with it so i tore off of bits of fish, for as long as i could.

i gave him a bit with little fish bones in it and though he wasn't
choking outright, his breathing was awry, sounded like something was
blocking his airway. i made him drink water and he started breathing
normally again. this scared me so i stopped and gave him beef chunks
instead.

you're right, maybe i'll do it again, but this time with fillet. what
else is a good fish to give, aside from salmon?

Vada R

Messages in this topic (29)
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6a. Re: new to this group
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 3:24 am ((PDT))

***MOD Note: Trim your messages, this one has been done for you! *****

-You all are too funny. Is anyone else missing Lora from Evanston,
IL? She'd have 10 websites posted by now!

Lynne

-- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Actually according to the USDA site they don't! Turkey roaster
wings
> contain 37% bone...remove the skin and it's 56%.
>

Messages in this topic (14)
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6b. Re: new to this group
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 3:56 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>

> Thanks. I'll stick with turkey wings being too bony.

Hey Chris,
I'm just pointing out an inconsistancy that needs to be resolved if
good information is to be given.

1. "Go to the grocery. Buy a chicken. Bring it home. Whack it into
quarters and feed it to your dog." There is not a day goes by that
this advice is not given several times. I'm not saying the advice is
bad but it is regular advice that is given by many people on the list
very frequently.

2. "Turkey wings are too bony to be fed." We have all seen this
advice given on the list anytime someone mentions that they feed or
have fed turkey wings.

3. Whole chickens are 31% bone and turkey wings are 30% bone
(approximately the same). Either whole chickens are too bony or
neither are. I'll stick with neither are.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (14)
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7a. Re: Raw Feeding in OZ (was: offal variety - how necessary?)
Posted by: "a.flynn@optusnet.com.au" a.flynn@optusnet.com.au flynn_nn
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 3:57 am ((PDT))

Hi from another raw feeder in Oz,

I am in the Newcastle area.

Wow, that's pretty good getting 4 goats for $60. I suppose it must be possible to find all sorts of great deals if people know you're after meat.

I have only been raw feeding for a month, so I'm still trying to find where I can get meat at good prices.

I can get chicken carcasses for $1 a kilo and turkey necks for $1.50 a kilo by the 10kg box from the chicken processing plant locally. I thought that was great when I started this, as I thought that was pretty much all I was going to need!! But finding meat to bring up the meat percentage is the expensive part. I have been buying meat at the supermarket which is marked down. I find that's usually cheaper than the butchers shops. But then I haven't tried to wangle any deals, yet.

The variety is woeful though compared to what they talk about getting in the US. I have asked two different butchers for liver and they don't even sell that. I had to get chicken livers at Woolies.

I find that most whole chickens are seasoned...so not suitable. I have found chicken thigh quarters for $2.75kg with no enhancing. Great for my little pup, but too small for my lab x.

I am still searching for a source of meat at reasonable prices.

Don't know of anywhere to get green tripe either.

Do any Aussies know whether we have the equivalent of the game hen or Cornish hen, over here?

Cheers, Ann.

> zest_741 <zest_741@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Lindsay Dorian"
> <iamentropygirl@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Kerry,
> >
> > I am another OZ raw feeding and I also wish it was easier to find
> variety (
> > I am north of Cairns)
> >
> > Do you also have trouble finding meat at reasonable prices?> Lindsay
> >
> Hi!
> So good to hear from other Australians on the list! I'm managing to
> find good variety in RMB's and meat, but it has taken a few months to
> find the sources and build the relationships. My local organic butcher
> now saves me any trim he isn't turning into sausages, for free, and
> then I buy meaty duck and chicken carcasses from him, not so cheap but
> good quality and balanced out by the freebies.
> I have set myself an average limit of Aust$3.50-$4.00 per kilo, mostly
> because I don't have the freezer space yet to buy in bulk and save
> that way.
> I have found good deals at that price or lower on lamb necks and
> sides, tongue, heart, kangaroo, veal, whole chickens and pork mostly
> by shopping around. Many of the butchers and wholesalers do seem to
> think I'm mad, but I'm starting to sort out the helpful from the rest.
> I don't really mind paying more if it's worth it but I need some self-
> imposed discipline or I'd spend a fortune on the dogs quite blindly.
> Kerry
> ps has anyone found a source of green tripe in Oz?

Messages in this topic (5)
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8. not ripping or tearing the meat- a problem?
Posted by: "imaginationdead" deadoikos@gmail.com imaginationdead
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 3:59 am ((PDT))

hi all,
i've been feeding my 30lb dog raw for about three weeks now. mostly
chicken quarters, thighs, and fryer chickens. she did fine initially
on chicken but when i tried turkey it upset her stomach, she barfed a
fair sized peice of bone, barfed three other times just bile and had
the runs. so now shes back on chicken, i'm planning to try rabbit
next. anyway, she's had lots of ups and downs as far as digesting the
raw meals, she'll have one nice firm poop then later in the day very
runny liquid (and shes only eating once a day).

I'm wondering if how she eats has anything to do with this. she doesnt
rip and tear like people on here have talked about, she doesnt hold
the meat with her paws and pull pieces off, she just holds the whole
chunk in her mouth and crunches all the bone in one section, gnaws off
and swallows that section then continues on. thawed or frozen doesnt
seem to matter. its sort of like how snakes eat except that she does
gnaw off individual pieces. she eats very quickly this way. do you all
think this is a problem?

thanks for any insight!,
Scherzo

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9. Re: Anal Blows-definition
Posted by: "Amy Baker" ladybaker2005@yahoo.com ladybaker2005
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 4:00 am ((PDT))

Her anal gland blows a hole right thru her skin. She licks the sore...it heals up in a few days. Happens to 2 of my iggies.....I figure it's the dry kibble I was feeding. Hopefully this new 'lifestyle' for them will make a difference with this;)
Thanks for your advice! Going to thighs and breasts now!
Amy

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10. dog on diet seems starved
Posted by: "verrelli" ktverrelli@bellsouth.net verrelli
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 5:50 am ((PDT))

Hi Guys
Thanks for all the help this list has given - it's amazing.

I have 6 dogs all who are on different diets due to age and medical
conditions - all are on Raw.

My biggest is 65 lbs - she is actually the easiest - she is also the
most active and it's not hard to drop her a chicken quarter and a back
if we are traveling etc. (I also do beef and pork this is just an
example she's been on raw since she was a baby so no problem here with
her chewing up even small protions)

The others seem to be the problem - they are small in size but I think
all bellies. Should be under 20 lbs. I won't be changing anything for
the 3 older 10-12 year old - they are correct weight and are doing
well but I have 2 who are getting pudgy - going with 2% of the weight
I want they should get 1/3 of a lb a day - that isn't alot.

a 1/2 back weighs about that much so I thought about maybe a chicken
neck and say beef heart (or some other straight meat) for breakfast
and strict meat for dinner - either way they seem to be always hungry

any suggestions for a filler food - pumkin? or frozen green beans?

also what do people do with dogs with beards?

thanks

Kellie Verrelli

Messages in this topic (1)
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