[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11868

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Raw Feeding in OZ (was: offal variety - how necessary?)
From: Bob Allanson
1b. Re: Raw Feeding in OZ (was: offal variety - how necessary?)
From: Casey Post

2a. Re: ibs update
From: chele519

3.1. Re: Feeding Fish
From: costrowski75
3.2. Re: Feeding Fish
From: cmhausrath
3.3. Re: Feeding Fish
From: Tracy

4a. Re: not ripping or tearing the meat- a problem?
From: carnesbill
4b. Re: not ripping or tearing the meat- a problem?
From: costrowski75
4c. not ripping or tearing the meat- a problem?
From: Cdandp2@aol.com
4d. not ripping or tearing the meat- a problem?
From: cmhausrath
4e. Re: not ripping or tearing the meat- a problem?
From: Tracy
4f. not ripping or tearing the meat- a problem?
From: Ivette Casiano
4g. not ripping or tearing the meat- a problem?
From: costrowski75
4h. Re: not ripping or tearing the meat- a problem?
From: Sandee Lee
4i. Re: not ripping or tearing the meat- a problem?
From: Sonja
4j. not ripping or tearing the meat- a problem?
From: costrowski75
4k. not ripping or tearing the meat- a problem?
From: cmhausrath
4l. Re: not ripping or tearing the meat- a problem?
From: helpshelteranimals

5a. Re: Anal Blows-definition
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: dog on diet seems starved
From: costrowski75
6b. Re: dog on diet seems starved
From: Jenny S

7a. Re: calcium/phosphorous ratio - cat bones
From: Shannon Hully

8a. Re: calcium/phosphorous ration
From: swilken61

9a. Re: not eating
From: Katie
9b. Re: not eating
From: Katie

Messages
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1a. Re: Raw Feeding in OZ (was: offal variety - how necessary?)
Posted by: "Bob Allanson" llan@ozemail.com.au llan1965
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 6:30 am ((PDT))

As far as I can make out, Cornish hens are pretty much what we can get in Adelaide, South Australia, as poussins. Trust me, you don't want to feed them to your dog unless you're indecently rich. they sell at anything from $6-$10 for a 400g bird!!!
Best if you want small is a size 9 chichen (900g, 2 lbs) and get a pair of poultry shears or a decent knife & quarter or halve it. If you plan to feed raw you'll need a good knife anyway.
Cheers, Judy and Wallace the German Shepherd, who does not get poussins!!

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Messages in this topic (7)
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1b. Re: Raw Feeding in OZ (was: offal variety - how necessary?)
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 11:03 am ((PDT))

> As far as I can make out, Cornish hens are pretty much what we can get in
> Adelaide, South Australia, as poussins.

**I've been told that they're more comparable to spatchcock?

> Best if you want small is a size 9 chichen (900g, 2 lbs) and get a pair of
> poultry shears or a decent knife & quarter or halve it. If you plan to
> feed raw you'll need a good knife anyway.

**Good plan!

Casey

Messages in this topic (7)
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2a. Re: ibs update
Posted by: "chele519" chele519@yahoo.com chele519
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 6:44 am ((PDT))

Lynda, glad the diet is working out for you. One of my dogs has
allergies and she eats pork shoulder as her main meal. Walmart's pork
is more expensive than the grocery store most of the time. I can
usually get whole shoulders at .79-.89/lb if I watch for the sales. It
does have more fat and you might want to remove some of the skin/fat
the first couple times you feed it until they get used to it.
Michele

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "lhmcmaken" <lhmcmaken@...> wrote:
figured to try pork
> next. walmart has shoulder for 108 a pound and I wondered if that was
> a richer meat?

Messages in this topic (5)
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3.1. Re: Feeding Fish
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 7:04 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "vadaski16" <vadaski16@...> wrote:
> you're right, maybe i'll do it again, but this time with fillet. what
> else is a good fish to give, aside from salmon?
*****
Since you're in the trying-out stage, you can feed small amounts of any
fish you would also eat yourself. You can buy small quantities from
the meat/fish counter and you can often find packages of cod, pollock,
whiting or even salmon fillets in the frozen food case. These would be
good samplers as well.

Buying fish one at a time is generally easy to do in Asian markets; the
ones I shop at will clean the fish for free, if one prefers to start
with a tidy fish.

Here are a couple websites that may help you make decisions:
http://www.oceansalive.org/eat.cfm?subnav=bestandworst
http://www.mbayaq.org/cr/seafoodwatch.asp

Chris O

Messages in this topic (32)
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3.2. Re: Feeding Fish
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 9:03 am ((PDT))

"costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:

> Buying fish one at a time is generally easy to do in Asian markets;
the
> ones I shop at will clean the fish for free, if one prefers to start
> with a tidy fish.

As will the store near me -- which results in me trying to speak fast
enough, in the wrong language: "no no no, please, leave it whole, thank
you -- please don't cut the fish, it's fine, yes, just like that."
They do think I'm a bit odd.

But hey, it's one of the few times Griff gets to eat eyeballs, and
brains (or what passes for brains, for fish), in an all-'round whole
critter. I don't want to pass up such an opportunity by accidentally
getting cleaned fish!

-- sandy (the oddball) & griffin (who really doesn't care for fish
anyway, and wishes mom would stop going to the trouble)

Messages in this topic (32)
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3.3. Re: Feeding Fish
Posted by: "Tracy" tracy.ramey@sbcglobal.net veganmomma1
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 9:04 am ((PDT))

what else is a good fish to give, aside from salmon?

> Vada R
>
*****
Sardines! They're nice and cheap. My dogs love them. I found a five
pound box of frozen, whole sardines for $9 at Fiesta. I had no idea how
crunchy those thing are!

Tracy

Messages in this topic (32)
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4a. Re: not ripping or tearing the meat- a problem?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 7:40 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "imaginationdead" <deadoikos@...>
wrote:
>
> when i tried turkey it upset her stomach, she barfed a
> fair sized peice of bone, barfed three other times just bile
> and had
> the runs.

Did she attempt to re-eat it or did you give her the opportunity to
do so?

> she doesnt
> rip and tear like people on here have talked about, she doesnt hold
> the meat with her paws and pull pieces off, she just holds
> the whole
> chunk in her mouth and crunches all the bone in one section,
> gnaws off
> and swallows that section then continues on.

Both my Danes eat the same way. My two Goldens ate that way too.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (13)
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4b. Re: not ripping or tearing the meat- a problem?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 7:40 am ((PDT))

"imaginationdead" <deadoikos@...> wrote:
>
when i tried turkey it upset her stomach, she barfed a
> fair sized peice of bone, barfed three other times just bile and had
> the runs.
*****
You may have fed too much, you may have introduced it too quickly,
you may have fed turkey that was shot up with flavor enhancers
or "juicifiers". There are many reasons why a new food may not work
out right the first time. I recommend you set turkey aside but don't
shut the door on it completely. Go back to it when both you and your
dog have more experience. It's a good protein, not the same at all
as chicken.

so now shes back on chicken, i'm planning to try rabbit
> next.
*****
Don't invest heavily! Rabbit is often rejected straight away or not
processed comfortably. As with any new food, you should buy a small
amount to test, perhaps test several times, before committing to an
expensive purchase.

anyway, she's had lots of ups and downs as far as digesting the
> raw meals, she'll have one nice firm poop then later in the day very
> runny liquid (and shes only eating once a day).
*****
Runny stools can be a result of eating too much new food, or eating
too much fat, or eating too much food, period. You might want to
retreat to two meals a day to see if her digestion calms down. If
she cannot comfortably do one big meal, there's no dishonor at all in
feeding twice a day. Job One is to get adequate appropriate
nutrition into her, so do what you need to. You're both still
learning.

I'm wondering if how she eats has anything to do with this. she
doesnt
> rip and tear like people on here have talked about,
*****
LOL
There are not so many dogs here that rip and tear, I suspect. It is
a fine thing to behold but it's not like you and your dog are failing
for not eating "properly." I have one dog that generally rips and
tears her food, but even she doesn't do it 100% of the time. And
heck, she's got a full "rip and tear" personality to go along with
her eating style and I'm not entirely sure her flamboyant eating
style justifies her over-the-top personality.

she doesnt hold
> the meat with her paws and pull pieces off, she just holds the whole
> chunk in her mouth and crunches all the bone in one section, gnaws
off
> and swallows that section then continues on.
*****
This is a perfectly normal, perfectly functional way of getting food
into the hopper. My big 85lb Lab and my little 31lb border collie
both eat that way. Grab the food, position it for full advantage,
chomp, crush, move it around some, crush again, smush it up some so
it's good and slimy, swallow. Repeat as necessary.

thawed or frozen doesnt
> seem to matter. its sort of like how snakes eat except that she does
> gnaw off individual pieces. she eats very quickly this way. do you
all
> think this is a problem?
*****
You might be feeding hunks of food that are just the right efficient
size for the grab and chomp method. The easiest way to slow down the
process is to feed bigger food; if you cannot (if, for example, you
feed twice a day), then you may have to feed messier food. For my
dogs, messier food is stuff with loose ends, dangling legs or wings
or necks: stuff that's not a ball o' food but rather a floppy,
disjointed meal.

To me it doesn't sound as if your dog is having swallowing/choking
issues with her food, so she's probably doing okay on her end. And I
can't offhand say I see a connection between her loose stools and her
way of eating--unless she is simply eating too much food.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (13)
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4c. not ripping or tearing the meat- a problem?
Posted by: "Cdandp2@aol.com" Cdandp2@aol.com cdandp
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 7:42 am ((PDT))

<<<<<, she just holds the whole
chunk in her mouth and crunches all the bone in one section, gnaws off
and swallows that section then continues on. thawed or frozen doesnt
seem to matter. its sort of like how snakes eat except that she does
gnaw off individual pieces. she eats very quickly this way. do you all
think this is a problem? >>>>>>

EXACTLY what's happening here with Spencer as well....I can't wait to hear
responses to this one. One additional problem for Spencer though is that he's
missing his upper front teeth....I think I posted on this before but didn't
see any responses??

Thanks and well wishes to all,
Carol for Spencer (the heartworm guy)

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

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Messages in this topic (13)
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4d. not ripping or tearing the meat- a problem?
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 9:19 am ((PDT))

Cdandp2@... wrote:

> <<<<<, she just holds the whole
> chunk in her mouth and crunches all the bone in one section>>>>
>
> EXACTLY what's happening here with Spencer as well

Oh, yeah, this is completely how Griffin eats. At least, the day-to-
day fare all gets eaten this way. Chickens (whole, quarters,
whatever), turkeys, rabbits, pork shoulders -- all basically gets the
same mash-and-gulp treatment. To really get Griffin engaged in his
food requires something more challenging. Beef or bison ribs --
whole big slabs of ribs, slathered in meat -- do the trick. The
bison necks I used to get were good too. Check out:
http://rawfeddogs.net/RecipePhoto/9/2
and
http://rawfeddogs.net/RecipePhoto/9/3

Note, though, that pork ribs do not produce the same result. Pork
ribs get consumed completely, not picked clean like beef or bison,
and are chomped through the same way as everything else.

> One additional problem for Spencer though is that he's
> missing his upper front teeth....I think I posted on this before
but didn't
> see any responses??

You mean the little ones, between the canines? Griffster's missing
all the bottoms (except one little broken stub), ever since I got
him, and it's never given him a moment's worry. He's missing a
carnassial tooth, too, on top, that had to be extracted shortly after
I adopted him. Still no trouble eating -- he used to plow right
through those beef necks, consuming them entirely, missing teeth or
no.

-- sandy & griffin (who has an endearingly silly smile, with all his
missing toofers)

Messages in this topic (13)
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4e. Re: not ripping or tearing the meat- a problem?
Posted by: "Tracy" tracy.ramey@sbcglobal.net veganmomma1
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 9:35 am ((PDT))

she doesnt
> rip and tear like people on here have talked about, she doesnt hold
> the meat with her paws and pull pieces off, she just holds the whole
> chunk in her mouth and crunches all the bone in one section, gnaws off
> and swallows that section then continues on. > Scherzo
>

***********
Niether one of my dogs hold their food down. I would imagine their
teeth are still benefiting from crunching on the bones so not tearing
meat off is ok. Someone correct me if I'm wrong! If I am, I'll just
have to grab me a hunk of meat and show them how it's supposed to be
done. And I'm vegan, so that won't be fun!

Tracy

Messages in this topic (13)
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4f. not ripping or tearing the meat- a problem?
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 10:48 am ((PDT))

"she doesnt rip and tear like people on here have talked about, she doesnt hold
the meat with her paws and pull pieces off, she just holds the whole
chunk in her mouth and crunches all the bone in one section, gnaws off
and swallows that section then continues on. thawed or frozen doesnt
seem to matter."

I have the same problem with my lab who is 100lbs and swallows large chunks. He doesn't have the runs though. He did throw up a huge chunk of bone the next morning after an evening feeding. That scared me and that's when I started chopping up the ones.
We need some advice on this. I've given him huge pieces and he still does the same thing, chomps down until he has a mouth full, crunches bones once or twice and swallows. I'm so afraid he isn't breaking up the bones well enough.
Any advice?
Ivette

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

---------------------------------
Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.

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4g. not ripping or tearing the meat- a problem?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 10:52 am ((PDT))

Cdandp2@... wrote:
>> EXACTLY what's happening here with Spencer as well....I can't wait
to hear
> responses to this one. One additional problem for Spencer though is
that he's
> missing his upper front teeth....
*****
Since I don't see this sort of eating as a "problem", I'd say Spencer
has but one potential "problem" and that's his missing teeth. If they
do not impede his ability to obtain appropriate nutrition, they're
probably not a problem either.

The "problem" with this way of eating is it doesn't fit the human's
expectations.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (13)
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4h. Re: not ripping or tearing the meat- a problem?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 10:59 am ((PDT))

This is totally normal. This is the way a dog eats. Crunch, crunch swallow
is normal. Dogs do not chew, it is not necessary for them to hold their
food...the only requirement is that the food fits down the throat.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Ivette Casiano" <ivettecasiano@yahoo.com>

> "she doesnt rip and tear like people on here have talked about, she doesnt
hold
> the meat with her paws and pull pieces off, she just holds the whole
> chunk in her mouth and crunches all the bone in one section, gnaws off
> and swallows that section then continues on. thawed or frozen doesnt
> seem to matter."
>
> I have the same problem with my lab who is 100lbs and swallows large
chunks. He doesn't have the runs though. He did throw up a huge chunk of
bone the next morning after an evening feeding. That scared me and that's
when I started chopping up the ones.
> We need some advice on this. I've given him huge pieces and he still
does the same thing, chomps down until he has a mouth full, crunches bones
once or twice and swallows. I'm so afraid he isn't breaking up the bones
well enough.

Messages in this topic (13)
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4i. Re: not ripping or tearing the meat- a problem?
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 11:13 am ((PDT))

My dog wants nothing to do with touching the meat with her paws. If you throw meat at her and she's laying down, her front paws will go spread-eagle faster than you can blink an eye. Her whole meal is eaten with both legs perpendicular to her body (I didn't even think dogs could bend like that....). It looks REALLY uncomfortable but if that's the way she wants to do it, then more power to her.

Sonja

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4j. not ripping or tearing the meat- a problem?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 11:15 am ((PDT))

Ivette Casiano <ivettecasiano@...> wrote:
>
> "she doesnt rip and tear like people on here have talked about,
>
> I have the same problem with my lab who is 100lbs and swallows
large chunks.
*****
Ivette, this is not necessarily a problem! The problem, if there is
a problem, is you are expecting him to eat as we eat and he's not
likely to because he's built entirely differently.

If he is obtaining adequate nourishment from his meals, he is doing
fine. He doesn't have to rip and tear to eat "right"; eating "right"
is about making the food fit down his gullet. That's what dog eating
is. It's not fancy and it's not elegant (egad no) but if your big
guy is mashing and mushing his meals to the extent that he swallows
the results, digests the results, eliminates the waste and is of good
weight, shiny coat and jolly demeanor, he is eating fine.

Houston, your dog does NOT have a problem!

He did throw up a huge chunk of bone the next morning after an
evening feeding. That scared me and that's when I started chopping up
the ones.
*****
You are, by chopping up the poor dog's bones, increasing the
potential for stupid eating and distressing results. If you feel you
must intervene with what seems to me to be an okay eating process,
make the food BIGGER! I mean, stop fooling around with small food if
the kid can power through small food. Feed big. He's a huge dog, he
can handle it.

He vomited up the bone because he digested as much of dinner as he
could. Dogs have the untidy but truly healthy ability to get rid of
indigestible stuff quick. If a thing is taking too long to go out
one end, it goes out the other. The problem, as you define it,
ain't. The problem happens when the thing (usually a sock or a
tennis ball or a corncob or other objects that have little or nothing
to do with raw food) doesn't come out.

If you are feeding him small food, make the food larger. If you are
feeding chopped up pork neck bones, feed pork shoulder roasts. If
you are feeding a couple of pork spare ribs, feed the whole rack. If
you are feeding a leg quarter, feed a whole chicken, or least half of
one. If you are feeding turkey necks, feed turkey quarters.

If you are feeding medium size roundy bones like knuckles or lamb
necks, stop.

I've given him huge pieces and he still does the same thing, chomps
down until he has a mouth full, crunches bones once or twice and
swallows. I'm so afraid he isn't breaking up the bones well enough.
*****
My guess is what you consider huge pieces and what he considers huge
pieces are two different huges. Please, if you don't mind, provide
menu details.

IMO, he is eating perfectly appropriately. You have described no
anomoly, no crisis, no choking nor even a benign gag that usually
happens to adjust the mouthful.
Chris O

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4k. not ripping or tearing the meat- a problem?
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 11:25 am ((PDT))

"Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:

> Dogs do not chew, it is not necessary for them to hold their
> food...the only requirement is that the food fits down the throat.

LOL -- and even that's a fungible sort of "requirement" -- dogs are up
for a do-over if their first impression of "fits down the throat"
doesn't really conform to reality.

-- sandy (finally gotten used to it) & griffin (hoooork)

Messages in this topic (13)
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4l. Re: not ripping or tearing the meat- a problem?
Posted by: "helpshelteranimals" helpshelteranimals@yahoo.com helpshelteranimals
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 12:01 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sonja" <ladyver@...> wrote:
>
Her whole meal is eaten with both legs perpendicular to her body (I
didn't even think dogs could bend like that....). It looks REALLY
uncomfortable but if that's the way she wants to do it, then more power
to her.
> Sonja
***************

LOL! Do we get to see a picture some day?!

AG & Ruffian (Mystery Mutt)

Messages in this topic (13)
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5a. Re: Anal Blows-definition
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 7:46 am ((PDT))

Amy Baker <ladybaker2005@...> wrote:
>
> Her anal gland blows a hole right thru her skin. She licks the
sore...it heals up in a few days.
*****
My 8yo Lab produced one of these a few weeks ago, I had no idea what it
was, since he'd never had anal gland issues before and of all my dogs
only one dog once needed his glands expressed and that was like 12
years ago.

My Lab--he of the impacted anal gland--has been fed raw for seven
years. I have no idea what precipitated his impaction but I know it
wasn't kibble! I think a good raw diet will take care of "normal" anal
gland maintenance but impactions and certainly recurring impactions
might well be a flag that the immune system ain't quite right.

Chris O

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6a. Re: dog on diet seems starved
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 7:59 am ((PDT))

"verrelli" <ktverrelli@...> wrote:
they should get 1/3 of a lb a day - that isn't alot.
>
> a 1/2 back weighs about that much so I thought about maybe a chicken
> neck and say beef heart (or some other straight meat) for breakfast
> and strict meat for dinner - either way they seem to be always hungry
>
> any suggestions for a filler food - pumkin? or frozen green beans?
*****
You do not need to feed vegetable filler. That would counterproductive
in building a bunch of strong healthy dogs. You can feed bigger food
less frequently; you can feed more complicated food that takes longer
to get through. For the small dogs, my recommendation would to be
increase the complication factor of their meals. While a dose of five
ounces of food doesn't take long to process, eating five ounces off a
laerger hunk of pork or chicken or whatever can take an amount of time
that while perhaps not VERY long would be long enough for the stomach
and brain to realize the body's been fed.

Also. If they are eating an appropriate amount of food, if they are
looking and acting good, if they have healthy looking skin and coat and
eyes, then you are most likely feeding them enough and what you need to
do is not get sucked into their little dining dramas.

My guess is if you work to complicate their meals they will feel full
and cut you some slack.

> also what do people do with dogs with beards?
*****
I don't have to worry about that but I hear tell it's as easy as a.
letting them clean up after themselves, and/or b. swabbing them with a
damp towel.
Chris O

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6b. Re: dog on diet seems starved
Posted by: "Jenny S" jenken69@shaw.ca jenken69
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 12:02 pm ((PDT))

Hi Kelli
****also what do people do with dogs with beards?***

here is a video of my shiz-tzu and how she cleans her beard after eating
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfMJXz3AvKI (doggy napkin)

She is just a small dog but has taken to rawfeeding so well we finally have her on track she eats once a day and then a bedtime snack which is her and my special time (she is a bit spoiled heehee)..somedays she dossent eat much but then I just take it up after im sure she is done ..took a bit to teach her that if she dossent eat it when served she gets nothing till next meal . Now we are on a solid once a day meal she smells so much better and her alegeries (she put off a horrendous sour odor before while on k***le )these probs are gone since I put her on raw. I'm not sure how much by weight she eats a day I just put down her food if she finishes it I offer more and if not I put the rest back in the fridge

Jenny S
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L34YjdBCu8I( Fun in the pool) way to funny..

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7a. Re: calcium/phosphorous ratio - cat bones
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 9:36 am ((PDT))

> Shannon,
>
> Where do you get those small animals? My cat isn't getting enough
> bone, either.

Lynne,

I bought a few feeder (frozen) mice from my local pet store and tried
them with those first (and cringed as every surface in the kitchen
(practically) got thwacked by dead mouse! ...My kitten had *FAR* too
much fun throwing it around, hehe) and after I'd determined that they
both liked them (and the kitten finally figured out it was edible) I
ordered them from www.rodentpro.com

There are probably other places
where you can get that kind of variety, possibly with better shipping
(and if you find one I'd love to hear about it!) for your area.

I know www.prey4pets.com carries feeder chicks and she's looking to
start getting mice in so that might be another idea.

I started mine on the mice but they were just too small to be a full
meal so I went to rats. The nice thing about RodentPro is that they
carry/offer *many* sizes to choose from. Their ordering process
shows you how much of the box you've filled as you go so you know how
much more you can fit in, which is good since shipping is a flat fee
per box. (A bit nerve-wracking with the first order, hoping like
heck your cats will eat all this food you've bought them, LOL! Would
have been better if I'd known anyone else here who was willing to go
in on the first order with me but I don't know anyone else locally
who feeds their cats raw so I just bit the bullet.)

With the sizes, they tell you the range in oz or lbs how much each
size will run on average, which helped me to figure out which sizes
would be a full meal for my guys. I tend to give them one smaller
meal and a larger meal per day so it all evens out in the end.

Good luck! :-)
Shannon H.

Messages in this topic (8)
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8a. Re: calcium/phosphorous ration
Posted by: "swilken61" powrfemme@aol.com swilken61
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 10:49 am ((PDT))

Thanks for all the information. You may be right that I am making
something simple more difficult than it needs to be. Stems from my
newness to raw feeding, I'm sure. And my goal all along has been to
simplify!

I am aware that some of my issues come from still being half
brainwashed by pet food commercials! I know that biologically our pets
are much closer to their wild relatives and that in the wild they are
not doing any calculations, just taking advantage of what is available.

I do tend to overthink and over research, so I appreciate all the
support I get here.

Stephany

Messages in this topic (8)
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9a. Re: not eating
Posted by: "Katie" kcrockett@mac.com kcrockettla7
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 11:15 am ((PDT))

I almost always have a foster golden or two in my house - my pack is pretty used to
"visiting" dogs . . . and these guys are crated all of the time because of the hw treatment,
so I don't think their presence is enough to effect my guys eating.

what i did wonder - most of the time when i have fosters, they eat what my guys eat (they
get tossed a hunk of meat) - these three are from the "other" golden retriever rescue
group in our area, and they specify no raw. so this is the first time i've had fosters eating
kibble (and one eats canned prescription food) - i'm wondering if this is the problem!

...katie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cmhausrath" <cmhausrath@...> wrote:
>
> BUT: big caveat coming up ...
>
>
> > The only other change in my hosue is I have 3 foster goldens in HW
> treatment - 2 are
> > eating k*bble and one is eating canned food (I don't have a choice
> in what they eat at this
> > point) . . . I've had these guys since last Thursday
>
>
> This sounds like a major stressor, at least potentially. It sounds
> like you have a lot of dogs, and maybe pack changes aren't a big deal
> for them, but I know this would disrupt my routine and my dog's. I
> also know that HW treatment is no fun for the dogs going thru it. If
> your golden is at all sensitive -- and it has taken me ages to figure
> out that my dog is VERY sensitive, doofy goodnaturedness aside -- he
> may just be reacting to the changes in his household. In which case

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: not eating
Posted by: "Katie" kcrockett@mac.com kcrockettla7
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 11:15 am ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
> > Sunday, Clancy (my golden) refused treats at work
>
> What were you using for treats?

freeze dried beef - one of his favorites!

> How is he acting? Does he still seem healthy, happy and enegetic?

he seems fine

>
> What was on the menu last night and tonight?

sunday night and last night it was chicken - last night it was turkey (tonka concumed their
chicken for them the night before!)

>
> > Murphy (border collie/aussie mix) has eaten his dinner
> > every night, as has Mister, the
> > schip I am fostering. I dont' know if it's related, but
> > Murphy and Mister eat in their crates,
> > whereas Tonka, Clancy, and Tara eat loose.
>
> It's possibly realated. As a trainer, you know that dogs are very
> routine oriented. A break in the routine CAN upset the apple cart
> sometimes.

but there wasn't a break in the routine. our regular routine is murphy and mister eat in
their crates - tonka, clancy and tara eat loose. i was just observing that the "crate fed"
dogs have been eating fine.

> > The only other change in my hosue is I have 3 foster goldens in
> > HW treatment - 2 are
> > eating k*bble and one is eating canned food (I don't have a
> > choice in what they eat at this
> > point)
>
> Are your dogs fed with these 3 fosters? in the same room?

yes, except for clancy, who is fed in the kitchen - which is not separated by a door.

Messages in this topic (11)
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