Feed Pets Raw Food: [rawfeeding] Digest Number 12462

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Pork?
From: jordan_spiva
1b. Re: Pork?
From: Casey Post
1c. Re: Pork?
From: costrowski75
1d. Re: Pork?
From: Sheila0344@aol.com

2a. Re: Unsure of qauntities
From: costrowski75
2b. Re: Unsure of qauntities
From: Robert Ekendahl

3a. Honey?
From: Debi C
3b. Re: Honey?
From: Casey Post

4a. Re: Pork? / wild hog
From: boswellrt@aol.com
4b. Re: Pork? / wild hog
From: scarebetty
4c. Re: Pork? / wild hog
From: carnesbill
4d. Re: Pork? / wild hog
From: Donna Forrester

5a. Feeding Routine
From: scottginapeckford
5b. Re: Feeding Routine
From: Chia
5c. Re: Feeding Routine
From: Andrea
5d. Re: Feeding Routine
From: Sandee Lee

6a. Re: Chicken issues???
From: dario
6b. Re: Chicken issues???
From: costrowski75
6c. Re: Chicken issues???
From: carnesbill
6d. Re: Chicken issues???
From: Sandee Lee

7a. raw food ordering in Canada
From: Tracey WAGC
7b. Re: raw food ordering in Canada
From: Vivienne Swarbreck

8a. Re: Allergies?
From: Cindy Wells

9a. Re: loose stools/really need some feedback
From: Andrea

10. Recent Vet Visit
From: thebestformyboys

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Pork?
Posted by: "jordan_spiva" jordan_spiva@yahoo.com jordan_spiva
Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 7:03 am ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.

The website I order from (Creston Valley Meats) Now sells 25lb boxes of meaty pork bones
for .50 cents.It's a great deal and i would like to know if my dog will benefit from these. My
vet told me raw pork has a lot of fat on it and should only be fed as a snack. What are your
opinions.?

Messages in this topic (22)
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1b. Re: Pork?
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 7:36 am ((PST))

> The website I order from (Creston Valley Meats) Now sells 25lb boxes of
> meaty pork bones
> for .50 cents.It's a great deal and i would like to know if my dog will
> benefit from these. My
> vet told me raw pork has a lot of fat on it and should only be fed as a
> snack. What are your
> opinions.?

Pork is a lovely red meat. But it's been my experience that anything
labeled "bones" is NOT worth my money or time.

Casey

Messages in this topic (22)
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1c. Re: Pork?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 7:41 am ((PST))

"jordan_spiva" <jordan_spiva@...> wrote:
>> The website I order from (Creston Valley Meats) Now sells 25lb
boxes of meaty pork bones
> for .50 cents.It's a great deal and i would like to know if my dog
will benefit from these.
*****
I cannot see any benefit for your dog from these bones.

Simon is not known for his generously meaty bones. In fact, Simon
does not sell meaty bones. He sells bones that should be given away
(if not thrown away) and whatever meat is left on them does not
constitute meaty.

I can't imagine why you'd want to buy bare naked bones for fitty cent
a pound when for not much more than that you can buy pork shoulder
roasts and feed them as incomparably meaty bones or trim off much of
the meat for several meatymeat meals and one very nice meaty bone.

Your dog does not need any bare naked bones (not pork, not beef, not
emu, not ostrich) in its diet. Feed meaty bones, feed body parts
with some bone in them. That bare pork bones are edible does not
justify their use.

Simon does offer some good product. You can do better for your dog
than Simon's bones. You should consider other--meatier--options when
you order from him.

My
> vet told me raw pork has a lot of fat on it and should only be fed
as a snack. What are your
> opinions.?
*****
Your vet is right, there's a lot of fat on raw pork. This is pretty
much a "yeah, and your point is?" issue. If your dog is otherwise
healthy and if you introduce fatty pork (any fatty food) in
conservative amounts your dog will thrive on the meat and the fat.

Pork is a high quality, easily digested, and affordable red meat.
You can trim the subQ fat if you want to, but it would be a mistake
to avoid pork as a menu option because your vet says there's a lot of
fat on it.

A dog has but two building blocks in its nutritional pyramid: protein
and fat. It can hardly do well without both.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (22)
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1d. Re: Pork?
Posted by: "Sheila0344@aol.com" Sheila0344@aol.com s_mayo2002
Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 8:08 am ((PST))

FWIW I feed mine pork necks about once a week.
Sheila

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.

http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (22)
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2a. Re: Unsure of qauntities
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 8:00 am ((PST))

"bearspicnic2000" <bearspicnic2000@...> wrote:
>
> Hi my name is Kerry from New Zealand. I have a 6mnth old Golden
Ret.
> I wanted some help with qauntities and ideas to start with.
*****
Welcome, Kerry. You'll find that your golden pup will thrive on a
good raw diet. In the US at least, there are lots of things wrong
with goldens these days; providing a healthy lifestyle (which
includes feeding healthy appropriate food) is so very important.

I recommend you join Yahoogroups if you have not already done so in
order to browse the list message archives. By typing appropriate key
words into the search box you'll get dozens of answers to your
questions. Instructions for linking to Yahoogroups are at the bottom
of every rawfeeding email you receive.

Also check out

http://rawfed.com
http://rawfeddogs.net
htto://www.rawlearning.com

Certainly feel free to post specific questions to the list, but
please consider doing some basic homework first.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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2b. Re: Unsure of qauntities
Posted by: "Robert Ekendahl" robert@ekendahl.org ekendahl
Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 8:08 am ((PST))

Kerry,

You should feed her 2-3% of ideal adult weight. I would start with 2%
and see how it goes. According to the american kennel club
(http://www.akc.org/breeds/golden_retriever/index.cfm) an adult golden
bitch should be 55-65 lbs or 25-30 kg. Assuming you would want her on
the lean side I would start with 2% of 25kg or 500 grams/day of meat
(and bones). That 500 grams should, over time be 80% meat, 10% bones and
10% organs, but for now stick with meat and bones until her stomach is
used to raw meat (i.e no loose stools for some time).

The easiest is to start her on a single protein source for a couple of
weeks until she gets used to it. Being in New Zeeland I would consider
lamb, and my understanding is that most lamb is pasture fed in New
Zeeland (is that true?) which would be great for the omega 3 fatty acids.

Otherwise a lot of people start with chicken, something like a quarter
chicken/day (or whatever 500 grams is). I use Bill Carnes site as a good
helper -> http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

I've been doing it for less then a week for my two german shepherds and
my cat and they love it. They have been constipated most of the week,
but this morning had loose stool, probably because I got impatient and
fed them some pork which they wheren't used to.

Good luck!

/Robert Ekendahl

Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Honey?
Posted by: "Debi C" dcole6@satx.rr.com scarlet_debi
Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 8:07 am ((PST))

Any thoughts on honey? It is a naturally occuring substance and bears,
racoons and coyotes will find it and eat it. Maybe for energy and
weight gain? My JRT got on the coffee table, pulled the plastic lid
off and cleaned out a bowl of it. No ill effects so far.

Debi, 2 Jacks and an App

Messages in this topic (2)
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3b. Re: Honey?
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 9:14 am ((PST))

> Any thoughts on honey? It is a naturally occuring substance and bears,
> racoons and coyotes will find it and eat it. Maybe for energy and
> weight gain?

I avoid honey because my dog is prone to yeast overgrowth. Nothing like all
that sugar to fuel stinky, itchy ears and feet!

Casey

Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: Pork? / wild hog
Posted by: "boswellrt@aol.com" boswellrt@aol.com boswellsbordercollies
Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 8:31 am ((PST))

When you feed pork is it store bought, raised pork or does anybody feed wild
hog?
Usually my husbands kills many wild hogs every year they are overrunning
things out here in the woods. We don't eat pork so it all goes to his relatives
but it would be nice to be able to feed it to the dogs.

Trish
_G-Force Border Collies_ (http://www.gforcebordercollies.com/)

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.

http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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4b. Re: Pork? / wild hog
Posted by: "scarebetty" scarebetty@yahoo.com scarebetty
Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 10:35 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, boswellrt@... wrote:
>
> When you feed pork is it store bought, raised pork or does anybody
feed wild
> hog?
> Usually my husbands kills many wild hogs every year they are
overrunning
> things out here in the woods. We don't eat pork so it all goes to
his relatives
> but it would be nice to be able to feed it to the dogs.
>
>
> Trish
> _G-Force Border Collies_ (http://www.gforcebordercollies.com/)
>
>
>
>
> I feed store bought pork altho Lucy doesnt like it real well, she
does eat it. We had an occasion to feed wild pig, so I drove 60 miles
to get it. My husband skinned it and we 'butchered it' and I do mean
butchered!! Anyway, Lucy took the parts that we gave her and buried
them. I had never seen her bury anything! Later on, I gave her a ham
and she would pick it up, but not eat it. I tried searing it,
flavoring it some-all kinds of things. She just would not eat it. My
kids and their dogs were out here the next weekend and out of 6 dogs,
only 1 would eat it. I have read where a lot of dogs wont eat it,
dont know why. If I were you, I would certainly try to feed it and if
your dog likes it, go ahead. Some would say to freeze it first, but
my dogs are ranch dogs and they tend to bring up all kinds of stuff,
so I didnt worry about freezing it. I dont freeze any thing that they
might catch and eat in the wild.

Betty

Messages in this topic (4)
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4c. Re: Pork? / wild hog
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 10:59 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, boswellrt@... wrote:
>
> When you feed pork is it store bought, raised pork or does
> anybody feed wild hog?

I don't feed wild hog but I would if I had access to it. Freeze it
for a few weeks and it's good to go. :) :) :) That will make a BIG
dent in your feeding bill.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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4d. Re: Pork? / wild hog
Posted by: "Donna Forrester" birdiegirl67@comcast.net birdiegirl67
Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 12:13 pm ((PST))

My BF just killed a wild sow hog, over 300 pounds live weight. Out
freezer is stocked, and everything we didn't keep for ourselves will go
to the animals- my 4 dogs and 6 cats. They love the heart especially!
Right now Girlie, one of my Anatolian Shepherds, is "homesteading" the
head.......she's been out there protecting it from everyone else for a
few days now!

We get quite a crowd at butchering time!
Wild hog is a great source of food for your pets.
Donna

Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. Feeding Routine
Posted by: "scottginapeckford" scottginapeckford@yahoo.com scottginapeckford
Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 8:32 am ((PST))

Hi All,

We have been raw feeding our 15 month old Spanish Water Dog for
about 3-4 months and she is doing incredibly well with the diet. She
eats nearly everything... chicken, pork, some beef, organs, eggs,
fish, and sparse amounts of vegetables. Ocassionally we give her a
little fish oil, vitamine E and kelp powder. Again, she is doing
very well.

We live in Canada and often the outside temps is deep freezing
cold. We are finding that eating raw inside is very messy. We place
her bowl on newspaper but she seems to enjoy her raw
boney/meaty/bloody food outside of her dish, creating a bloody (from
extreme red meats such as liver, hearts, etc...) mess aroung the
dish area.

What's your feeding routine? Where/how do you feed your dogs?

Our "problem" is about to be magnified. We are getting two moe SWD
pups next week.

Scott

Messages in this topic (4)
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5b. Re: Feeding Routine
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 8:38 am ((PST))

##### good, as long as veggies are SPARSE... completely unnecessary as
is kelp and vitamin e. No point giving her something that has no benefit,
right?

#### I live in Canada also but I am blessed that it is the
WestCoast..below freezing is VERY rare...when it is, do I ever scowl. ;-))

Forget a bowl, or newspaper..yuck, who wants to ingest ink. Feed either
on a plastic tablecloth (camping section at Wal-Mart)... OR, just on tile or
lino. Easy clean up with vinegar and a paper towel. Bowl are for water...
:-))

What's your feeding routine? Where/how do you feed your dogs?

### when it's a quick meal, on the tile in corner of my kitchen. When it
is a longer duration meal, the plastic tablecloth in my library.

Our "problem" is about to be magnified. We are getting two moe SWD
pups next week.

#### oh what fun! Remember, question the vaccine protocols presented by
all. Best to do none for the supreme health of your beautiful carnivores.
OT for here though, the other list on yahoo addresses ALL of this.

Chia & Ricco

http://www.truthaboutvaccines.org

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Messages in this topic (4)
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5c. Re: Feeding Routine
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 10:51 am ((PST))

My dogs get fed on their dog beds or on a large towel. They clean their area quite well after
they are finished eating. Just plop the food down on the towel, no dish needed, and if you
want you can wash the towel after the meal. You could also feed on a vinyl tablecloth that
can be wiped down after meals.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "scottginapeckford" <scottginapeckford@...> wrote:

> We are finding that eating raw inside is very messy. We place
> her bowl on newspaper but she seems to enjoy her raw
> boney/meaty/bloody food outside of her dish, creating a bloody (from
> extreme red meats such as liver, hearts, etc...) mess aroung the
> dish area.

Messages in this topic (4)
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5d. Re: Feeding Routine
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 11:44 am ((PST))

I feed the Danes on blankets, throw them in the wash once in a while. Most
raw food will not be eaten from a bowl! :) I use them to transport bloody
food from kitchen to eating spot but they quickly remove the food, dump it
on the blanket and proceed to eat!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "scottginapeckford" <scottginapeckford@yahoo.com>

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Re: Chicken issues???
Posted by: "dario" nanterossi@yahoo.co.uk nanterossi
Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 8:32 am ((PST))

I was going to double the dose of the Advocate...should I not?

IS what I feed him causing his itchy skin?

I give chicken carcasses, beef shank, lamb shank, pork, some tripe, hearts and some liver.

Thinking of some fish soon.

MAny thanks

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Most likely not an allergy. It does sound a little like mange, but also
> could be the result of Advocate....nasty ingredients with lots of side
> effects.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>

Messages in this topic (8)
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6b. Re: Chicken issues???
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 8:50 am ((PST))

ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN

If this thread sticks to chicken as a potential cause of itching it is
welcome on the rawfeeding list. If it changes to a dicussion about
Advocate it should be moved promptly to RawChat. Thanks.
Chris O
Mod Team

Messages in this topic (8)
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6c. Re: Chicken issues???
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 10:59 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "dario" <nanterossi@...> wrote:
>
> I give chicken carcasses, beef shank, lamb shank, pork, some
> tripe, hearts and some liver.

I seriously doubt these items are causing your problem. I suspect
it's something else you are giving him OR an environmental
allergy/irritant.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (8)
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6d. Re: Chicken issues???
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 11:25 am ((PST))

I doubt it has anything to do with food. Of course, we can't see or
diagnose your dog, but it does sound like mange in which case you just need
to build up his immune system with good food, fresh water, lots of fun and
love. :) Unless there is a lot of meat on those shanks, it may be
worthwhile adding more meat and fat. You could also try some fish or salmon
oil....good for skin!

Vaccinations and harmful drugs are damaging to the immune system...avoid
them if at all possible. If you want to discuss this further, go over to
the Rawchat group for topics not food related!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/

Sandee & the Dane Gang

----- Original Message -----
From: "dario" <nanterossi@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 8:29 AM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Chicken issues???

I was going to double the dose of the Advocate...should I not?

IS what I feed him causing his itchy skin?

I give chicken carcasses, beef shank, lamb shank, pork, some tripe, hearts
and some liver.

Thinking of some fish soon.

Messages in this topic (8)
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7a. raw food ordering in Canada
Posted by: "Tracey WAGC" wagc@sasktel.net frustrated_tracey
Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 9:31 am ((PST))

Does anyone know if there is a raw food supplier in Canada for things like ground tripe, trachea, tripe/organ blend, gullets, ground pancreas? If there isn't is there enough raw feeders in canada to warrant one, do you think?

tracey

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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7b. Re: raw food ordering in Canada
Posted by: "Vivienne Swarbreck" sienna_seiko@yahoo.ca sienna_seiko
Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 12:14 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Tracey WAGC <wagc@...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone know if there is a raw food supplier in Canada
Hi Tracey,
I get frozen tripe from Paws and Claws, or Urban Carnivore which you
can get from Global Pet Shops, or Ren's in Ontario. Paws and Claws
also has organ meat blends. They are expensive...but worth it to me.
You could also ask a local butcher what they do with the offal that
they produce. I used to get an offal blend from a butcher, but
regulations in Canada forbid butchers from handling it now, so they
sell it off to a second party. You might be able to find such a
supplier in your area.
Vivienne
>
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. Re: Allergies?
Posted by: "Cindy Wells" cwells5@charter.net cwnsc
Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 10:59 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Ania Tysarczyk" <AniaJRT@...>
wrote:
>
> My dogs allergies did not completely disappear on raw, but it took
> about 3 or 4 months on raw before I saw most of the inprovement I
was
> going to see in her on raw. It was a lot of improvement. I then
got
> her homeopathic treatment so she improved more from there, but I
think
> it was the treatment, not the raw from then on.
>
> Ania
>

My golden has both skin and food allergies. Switched to raw 5 mos
ago and he is doing much better. I think it will take some time to
clear up but everyone comments on how soft and shiny his coat is. I
also think the daily brushing to loosen the dander has helped. Sam
has long hair and sheds constantly.

Cindy

Messages in this topic (10)
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9a. Re: loose stools/really need some feedback
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 11:06 am ((PST))

It doesn't seem too unusual for the dogs to have loose stools if they've had several new
proteins in a couple of weeks in addition to more meat than they used to get. If the stools
are too loose cut back on the variety a bit. My dogs and I aren't really bothered by loose
stools from new meats so we tend to keep trucking until things settle out.

> In general, I find that I do need to give Foxy just a little more
> bone than I was hoping...So now I will feed meaty meat for most meals
> but about three times a week I do give him some back or thigh bone
> along with his meat.

If you are finding that he needs more bone than you expected it might be a better idea to
give him bone in foods all the time for now. Feeding meaty meat for some meals and
adding bone to others seems like you'll end up with some puddin poos and some regular
ones.

> I had to scissor it and eventually (after 30 min.) I
> finally had to cut reamaing meat off bone. He finally came back and
> ate it...but otherwise gets frustrated I think.

It is probably more that he doesn't feel like doing the work himself. Ripping and tearing
food is an important thing for their dental health, let Pepper work things out on his own.
Maybe you could start with softer bones like rib in breasts and go from there.

> I have yet to add organ meat but feel rushed to do so as they have
> been eating raw for 1+months.

Good, don't worry about adding organs just yet. When you get the loose stools under
control you can go back to the idea. No rush. When you get around to it just add tiny bits
at first - like the size of a thumbnail.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (3)
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10. Recent Vet Visit
Posted by: "thebestformyboys" llb6984@comcast.net thebestformyboys
Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 12:14 pm ((PST))

Quick background: Have 2-3.5 year old golden retrievers. Been eating
raw from 1 year old. First diet had meat, liver, grains, yogurt,
veggies etc. Better than kibble but had problems. Switched to this list
in Sept. 07 Now feeding prey model. Dogs have improved. Better breath,
teeth (much improved), stools, and above all happiness.

Took Logan to the vet he has had chronic ear problems from 8 weeks old.
I'd found this 100 % holistic vet 1 hr. 15 min. away from us. She has
seen our three cats and we really liked her. It was time I got some
real help with Logan's ears, so we went today. He has a yeast
infection. She injected him with a homeopathic med. behind ears, back
of neck, and on right front leg. Gave me two things to give him: iFlora
acidophilus. Said he had to have this to get yeast under control. We
discussed yogurt. I had been feeding yogurt but did seem to help that
much, and I really don't want to have to buy that unless necessary.
Other med was Thymex dietary supplement (bovine thymus cytosol
extract). She said by the time the bottles were gone his ears should be
looking pretty good. And I may or may not have to continue with a
probiotic with this dog due to the hot humid climate we live in in
Florida, and his floppy ears that stay moist are a great place for
yeast to florish. So....

My question: She almost insists after hearing what we feed (she is 100%
pro raw--tries to convert all patients to raw) that we add Green Leafy
Veggies! She kinda seems pro veggie for all veggies ,but when I balked
at veggies (not so much green leafy but other veggies) she insists
they "NEED" what they will get out of green leafy veggies. I would like
the experience of those on this list and their thoughts on this.

Also is there anything I can do with Logan's diet to inhibit the growth
of yeast?

Laurie
Port St. Lucie, FL
Golden brothers Logan and Cooper
and their 3 kitties: Spencer, Madison and Jasmine

Messages in this topic (1)
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Feed Pets Raw Food

Saturday, January 5, 2008

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12462

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