[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12461

There are 22 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: worried
From: scarebetty
1.2. Re: worried
From: Jamie Dolan
1.3. Re: worried
From: Erika

2a. Re: Cost Of Raw Feeding
From: bluegracepwd
2b. Re: Cost Of Raw Feeding
From: A.
2c. Re: Cost Of Raw Feeding
From: Heather
2d. Cost Of Raw Feeding
From: Erika
2e. Re: Cost Of Raw Feeding
From: Giselle

3a. Varying views
From: muirghealfinne
3b. Re: Varying views/cold turkey switch?
From: Laurie Swanson
3c. Re: Varying views
From: costrowski75

4a. I got TONS of free meat!!
From: A.

5. Unsure of qauntities
From: bearspicnic2000

6a. First day on raw... tell me if I did it right?
From: certaintragedies
6b. Re: First day on raw... tell me if I did it right?
From: Laurie Swanson
6c. Re: First day on raw... tell me if I did it right?
From: certaintragedies

7a. Re: Raw newbie, and a quick introduction!
From: Giselle

8. Portion sizes for a 40 pounder
From: k9_smiley

9a. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
From: mathamgri

10a. loose stools/really need some feedback
From: marge
10b. Re: loose stools/really need some feedback
From: Eddie Scholten

11. New to raw, 8mo puppy gulping
From: cindicarter1966

Messages
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1.1. Re: worried
Posted by: "scarebetty" scarebetty@yahoo.com scarebetty
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 7:01 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "lauriewolfert" <lauriewolfert@...>
wrote:
>
> EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.
>
> Betty,
> I understand your concern and have the same question, as my husband
> and I are only about a week and a half into raw feeding. We have two
> small dogs (15lbs) and gave them large chicken legs tonight for the
> first time and they left behind several 1/2 - 1 inch shards of bone
> that they didn't eat. My husband ready to give it all up because he
> is concerned that the bones they DID eat will harm them. Can someone
> else give us some peace of mind? The dog falling and dying doesn't
> really address our question>
> >
>
>

Laurie,
I understand that there is a certain amount of fear in feeding raw.
My dog left behind shards and threw up shards. But, that was when she
first started raw. She has no problem now. One time she threw up
just one little shard. I have no idea why she couldnt digest it, when
she digested all of the rest of the bone in that meal!! Anyway, dont
let your fears stop you from doing what is undoubtly the best thing
that you can do for your dogs. Sandee's reply to you concerning all
10,000 people that are on this list have not lost a dog to a
perforated stomach or intestine is what I was looking for. Bill's
response also was what I was looking for in that there would be some
symptoms.
Go forward with the raw feeding, overcome your fears and if you get
scared, come to this group and they will help you.
Betty
Go forward with your prey model feeding
>

Messages in this topic (36)
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1.2. Re: worried
Posted by: "Jamie Dolan" jamiedolan@gmail.com jamiedolan
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 7:18 pm ((PST))

> I understand your concern and have the same question, as my husband
> and I are only about a week and a half into raw feeding. We have two
> small dogs (15lbs) and gave them large chicken legs tonight for the
> first time and they left behind several 1/2 - 1 inch shards of bone
> that they didn't eat. My husband ready to give it all up because he
> is concerned that the bones they DID eat will harm them. Can someone
> else give us some peace of mind? The dog falling and dying doesn't
> really address our question>

AKIVA 4 YEARS OLD 19 POUNDS SHIH TZU

VASCO DA GAMA 3 YEARS OLD 15 POUNDS SHIH TZU

BAE BAE 2 YEAR OLD 13 POUND SHIH TZU

HERA 8 MONTH OLD 6 POUNDS SHIH TZU

Dinner tonight WHOLE chicken weight 4 pounds, cut up into large pieces
and fed to the dogs. They chew up all the bones, sometime splinters
of bones are left around the house, I usally just pick up the little
pieces and throw them away, as they dogs have little intrest in bones
that don't have meat on them. Oh yea, they ate about half a pound of
pork too. They ate about 9% of there body weight tonight. A very
heavy meal. They are used to eating like that tough, I would not do
that to a dog that is not used to eating that way. Now they wont care
if I don't feed them for several days. They do not eat on any type of
schuedle what so ever, none. They might get food now, they might get
some breakfast at 6am tommrow, they might not eat till tuesday. (thats
a little long for no meal at all, monday would proboly be the longest
without food, after the meal tonight)

If I hand any concern what so ever about the safety of the bones I
grind it up for them, I have the grinder in the next room. They like
the bones and the bones help clean there teeth and make there meals
intresting.

I can send you photos and videos of my beautiful long haired (some in
partial - long show coats) chewing away on whole chickens! They even
EAT WHOLE FEATHERED CHICKENS! They eat the feet, the head, the beaks!
They eat pork, they chew up large ham roasts. They chew through
large beef roasts, lamb, WHOLE FISH, etc. NO problems! I always feed
large enough peices for there size so they don't choke. The dogs that
choke on raw bones are the dogs that are given inapproiatly sized
bones, i.e. chicken necks. A chicken neck alone is too small for
almost all dogs. I MIGHT give a large chicken neck to my 6 pound dog.
A chicken neck attacked to a head and a chicken body is fine for any
size dog.

I used to worry too. Now I stopped worrying and my dogs are just
happy and can be.

Sorry for the extra animation in my e-mail today, too much caffine.

Jamie

Messages in this topic (36)
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1.3. Re: worried
Posted by: "Erika" Erika@redangelbordeaux.com redangelbordeaux
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 8:47 pm ((PST))

Hi Betty,

Granted my dogs are much larger than yours and when eating a let quarter it's usually 6-7 good chomps and it's down the hatch but when I changed everyone over I also had a small 12 week old pup with me. I as well was nervous about the bones so I did a little "disecting" Ha, Grose I know but I'm very cautious about my "kids"

For about the first 2 weeks there was a few cases of loose stools and I did find the occasional bone in the poops but everything was still mooving through and I hade faith. About week 3 in hardly ever found bone. Once they were on RAW for one month absolutly no undigested bone to be found at all, just powder. I was feeding more than the recamended amount of bone at first because I had some digestive isues before begining the RAW feeding and was attempting to firm things up with adding more bone.

It is pretty amazing if you ever look closley when you get a chance (and you will) at the little bone bits in the Boney Bile Vomit. It's got tons of tiney holes in it and you can see how it is just melting away and being fully digested! They will get over the BBV as well, I had it almost every day in the beginning but hardly at all now. If you feed outside try to keep them out of the dirt and grass, it can add irritation to there tummy when beginning. The only time they hork up gunk after a meal now is if they had a large meal in the yard and ate a bunch of "other stuff" that was stuck to the meat. So it's a bunch of slime, grass and small twigs, UCK!

Good luck,
Erika

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Messages in this topic (36)
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2a. Re: Cost Of Raw Feeding
Posted by: "bluegracepwd" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 7:05 pm ((PST))

Hi Tammy,

yesterday my local knackery delived 5 goats. They cost me $55 in
total. Not sure how much a goat weighs, but the heaviest was over
25kg. It's actually working out cheaper for me to get sheep and goat
than it is to get chicken at the moment.

Within 2 hours of the goats being culled, they were in my freezer. I
did have to chop them up. I'm a bit handy with the axe these days.

I would be spending less than $30 per dog per month at the moment to
feed them. And the average weight of my dogs is about 23 kg each.

I also managed to buy an ex icecream freezer this week for $150. It
could easily manage to fit 8 goats in it.

cheers

Jane

Messages in this topic (8)
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2b. Re: Cost Of Raw Feeding
Posted by: "A." ols@charter.net cesare.1920
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 7:26 pm ((PST))

Make sure to post on www.craigslist.com too.

Also, there isn't much difference in getting meat from a freezer or
scraps from a butcher so I would take it wherever you can get it :)

~Amanda

Messages in this topic (8)
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2c. Re: Cost Of Raw Feeding
Posted by: "Heather" newbeginnings06@gmail.com malignstar
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 7:27 pm ((PST))

You'll definately get more comfortable handling meats. It wasn't until
about 2 mos ago I was able to handle liver without being grossed out
(been feeding raw 1.5 years) but I still find it difficult to handle
and cut up a set of beef lungs. I'm a vegetarian as well and I
actually LOVE to grocery shop for the kids. It's my favorite activity
because I feel so proud when I get a deal on something (my most recent
at Walmart: lamb for 1.78/lb and a 1 lb package of chicken
gizzards/hearts for .83c about to go bad). I love seeking out new
meats too and cannot wait to hit the Asian market 45 mins away. I've
been trying to find raw sardines, kidney. Some goat. I can normally
feed my dog on $20/mo and my cat around $15 because she gets whole
prey- which is a bit pricier than if I just fed her turkey, chicken
and pork.

Heather

Messages in this topic (8)
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2d. Cost Of Raw Feeding
Posted by: "Erika" Erika@redangelbordeaux.com redangelbordeaux
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 8:49 pm ((PST))

I am hitting a slim $$ time myself and have fortunatly figured out how to stretch the food bill pretty good! I have a great source for Beef Heart and Turkey neck so these are my main staple for now, I throw in some pork and lamb every couple of days or so. The main thing is to not rely to much on chicken. I don't even stock it in my freezer now unless I can find it for less than .50 a lb and it is a part larger than a leg quarter (you can get 10lb bag of chk leg quarters at walmart for under $5 every day) I don't stock it any more because it's to easy to reach for instead of the good heart and to much bone for regular feeding.
Don't stock up on things that you know for certain are always going to be available. Save the space in your freezer for the super deals when they come up. I purchased about 100lb of pork shoulder with bone in last month for only .69 a lb, super cheap! Would have purchased tons more if I had only had the freezer space :( Now I only have 4 shoulders left and I am waiting for that next great sale, lol! Look for restaurant supply houses, they are hard to find and most won't doo business with the general public but when you find one that will it's worth the work. You can always tell them that you are a Cateror (sp) and then if they ask you Cater to dogs haha.

Good luck, having 7 mastiffs here I know how the price per lb can affect your budget. Exotic meats are pretty much out of the question for me :( way to spendy even for Rabbit at just under $3 lb average, My kids eat about 15-20lb a day!

Happy New Year!
Erika

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2e. Re: Cost Of Raw Feeding
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 9:30 pm ((PST))

Hi, Tammy!
Check out The Lis List for ideas;

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/139618*

*Post #139618*
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

Hello everyone!
> I joined this group a few days ago and I have learned so much from all of
> you and have so much more to learn.
>

> <snip>
>
> How much do you all spend a month average? I am in a financial mess right
> now so I need to watch every penny. Any suggestions on how to do this
> frugally?
> <snip>
> Thank you in advance!
> Tammy
>
>
>
>

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3a. Varying views
Posted by: "muirghealfinne" muirghealfinne@yahoo.com muirghealfinne
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 7:17 pm ((PST))

Hi, my name is Nicole and I've finally made the decision to feed my
dog raw and need some help! I have a four year old field spaniel that
weighs thirty-five pounds. I don't know exactly how to go about
transitioning her. I've done some research and talked to some people
at pet stores and everyone is telling me varying things! I know there
will always be different opinions but some say to transition slowly by
combining kibble with raw and others say that you have to just switch
100% and that combining will make my dog sick. What have people
experienced with their own dogs???

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Varying views/cold turkey switch?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 7:45 pm ((PST))

Hi Nicole,

Both my dogs have gone from kibble one day to cooked meat the next and
then later from that to one day just all raw. Recently I switched my
newly adopted shelter dog and I fasted him for one day in between. I
haven't tried the other way of gradually transitioning and combining
the foods, but it makes sense to me that that would be more likely to
cause some digestive upset. It may not be a big deal, though. When I
give my dogs much cooked meat or starches (treats/bits of my food) near
a raw meat meal, they tend to get gas. What I've learned about
digestion says that different foods (especially higher water content
foods vs. drier foods) are digested at different rates. So
theoretically, if they're combined, either the moister foods (raw) are
held up in the system by the drier ones (kibble), causing fermentation
(gas), or the drier ones can get pushed thru more quickly than is
optimal (liquid stool, vomiting, diarrhea). Now, you may not see these
symptoms if you combine, and if you feel more comfortable trying the
gradual method of transitioning, that's fine. Whatever you need to do
to get you to the ultimate goal... And you can always change methods
as you go along if you want. I think lots of people have done it both
ways and ended up fine.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "muirghealfinne"
<muirghealfinne@...> wrote:

some say to transition slowly by
> combining kibble with raw and others say that you have to just switch
> 100% and that combining will make my dog sick.

Messages in this topic (3)
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3c. Re: Varying views
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 8:38 pm ((PST))

"muirghealfinne" <muirghealfinne@...> wrote:

I have a four year old field spaniel that
> weighs thirty-five pounds. I don't know exactly how to go about
> transitioning her.
*****
You transition her by adding raw meat to her kibble, by removing one of
her kibble meals and replacing it with a "RMB" and over some
unspecified amount of time you reduce the kibble and increase the raw
meat until you've stopped feeding kibble. That's how you transition a
dog to raw.

How you SHOULD do it is toss out the bag of kibble and feed your lovely
field spaniel (I do like them a lot!) some easily eaten and digested
hunk of raw something or other. I generally start adult dogs with skin
on, rib-in chicken breasts (or halves); other start with bonier chicken
parts and still others start with meat other than chicken. Regardless
of which meat protein and which body part you choose, dumping the
kibble and just doing it is the best way to get your dog moving towards
better health.

In the interests of science <snort> I have switched dogs to raw via
gradual transition using kibble and whole foods, via grinding
everything, and by cold turkey. The grinding was the clear loser: It
wasn't until I stopped the nonsense and gave the dog a leg quarter that
her loose stools stopped.

Neither the gradual transition nor cold turkey caused any digestive
distress that wasn't directly attributable to human error. So. Since
there is virtually no bottom line difference between gradual transition
and cold turkey, the question is WHY delay the process? For the
human? Be my guess. I suggest you get your dog off kibble as quickly
as you can.

Now. How long you take to get from Introductory Food to Protein
Variety is up to you. THAT transition has many options.

Some people stick firmly to one meat, one body part until they are
comfortable with the notion or have bought a freezer or have filled up
an existing one. Others move along as soon as the stools are to their
liking; others begin with one food but start adding additional meats
quite promptly; and still others just feed what they got and adjust as
they go along.

My guess is beginners might prefer starting with a single meat and and
a single body part. But the choice is yours, and you can change your
approach as often as you need to.

others say that you have to just switch
> 100% and that combining will make my dog sick.
*****
Your dog won't get sick. What will happen--if you feed too much too
soon which is probably the single biggest mistake beginners make--is
loose stools and other mild digestive upsets. This is not sick, it's a
natural response to excess. And you can avoid it or most of it by
feeding conservatively with limited foods and smaller meals and not
giving in to the urge to rush the buffet table.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. I got TONS of free meat!!
Posted by: "A." ols@charter.net cesare.1920
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 7:18 pm ((PST))

I wanted to thank everyone on here who posted ideas on how to get
free/cheap meat.

I went to my butchers and got 25 pounds of meat trimmings/scraps
along with "sawdust" scraps for $7.50!

(By the way, he said if I took the whole 400 pound barrell I could
have it for free. I am in the Truman Lake area of Missouri if anyone
wants to go in on that. I certainly have no room for 400 pounds lol)

I also put an ad on Craigslist and got an answer the first day. A
lady is an end of life caregiver and her client had lots of frezer
burned meats they were going to throw out. We met up with her
yesterday and she gave us the lot of it. I am so excited, there is
about $250-$300 worth of meat! Lots of fish too which is usually a
bit to expensive for me to buy much of.

Between both deals I will be feeding my Mastiffs for $7.50 for
awhile :)

~Amanda

Oh yeah, one question- the sawdust. It is just a bag of everything
including bone. Do I need to be careful how much of this I feed? I
don't really know how much of everything is in it, it may be a lot
of bone and I don't want to overdo it.

Messages in this topic (19)
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5. Unsure of qauntities
Posted by: "bearspicnic2000" bearspicnic2000@yahoo.com bearspicnic2000
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 7:45 pm ((PST))

Hi my name is Kerry from New Zealand. I have a 6mnth old Golden Ret.
I wanted some help with qauntities and ideas to start with. Any help
appreciated. She weighs 20kgs @ present. Kerry

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6a. First day on raw... tell me if I did it right?
Posted by: "certaintragedies" inaudibly@gmail.com certaintragedies
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 8:16 pm ((PST))

Today was Spunky's first day on raw. She's a 10 year old beagle. I fed
50 g of pork ribs and 200 g of chicken breast. The pork rib was thawed
in room temperature and the chicken breast was soaked in water in the
kitchen sink.

She ate it happily, we'll have to see how her stools come out or if
she throws anything up. Only problem was that she put it all over the
place when she was eating it...on the floor outdoors, then carried it
inside, put it on the floor...brought it to her bed...making me a
little worried about the gunk that could have gotten on it.

Then again, she is the iron-clad-gut type.

Anything wrong? I know I should have started out on 2 weeks of pure
chicken but we didn't have any chicken with bone.

-Melissa

Messages in this topic (3)
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6b. Re: First day on raw... tell me if I did it right?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 9:06 pm ((PST))

Sounds like you did fine. Not sure about the amounts--don't have time
to figure out the conversion of grams to pounds right now. I wouldn't
worry about her dragging her meat around from a health standpoint, but
if you want her to keep it in one place, it's quite easy to teach.
Just put down a mat, towel, blanket, vinyl tablecloth, shower curtain,
etc., and put her food on it. If she removes the food from the mat,
put it back on. You can add a word cue if you want. She will get the
idea pretty fast!

Laurie

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6c. Re: First day on raw... tell me if I did it right?
Posted by: "certaintragedies" inaudibly@gmail.com certaintragedies
Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 12:58 am ((PST))

Thanks Laurie. I'm feeding a total of 250 g which is about 2% of the
body weight that we got when we took her to the vet about two months
ago. I don't mind her dragging the food around as long as she doesn't
catch anything nasty from it.

-Melissa

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7a. Re: Raw newbie, and a quick introduction!
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 8:44 pm ((PST))

Hi, Jen!
Glad to see you made it over to the raw side! ^_^

Volume in Doom Nuggets (tm Carrie) and volume in raw meat 'n bone doesn't
correlate well. D.N. have a lot of unnecessary bulk, having lots of grains,
veggies and other additives, leading to big poops, because a lot of it is
indigestible and it goes to waste. Raw, being species appropriate, is so
much more bioavailable and less goes to waste. So, with raw, less is more,
so to speak.

Make sense?

So, you can start Moxie at any % you want, to begin with, even 4% - the
starting amount isn't as important as getting her started out raw.
4% of her ideal of 15 lbs = 9.6 oz
3.5% of 15 lbs = 8.4 oz
3% of 15 lbs = 7.2 oz
2.5% of 15 lbs = 6 oz
Pick a number, any number, just don't get to obsessive about it - the
guideline is "just a number" to start with, until you are comfortable with
feeding raw, and able to eyeball amounts and judge when to increase or
decrease what you're feeding.

Most raw feeders don't even weigh their dog's food, or their dogs, after a
few weeks or so of feeding raw. Its just somewhere to start.

One of the beauties of raw feeding is that you get to choose the menu and
adjust the amounts for your particular dog's individual needs, whatever that
is, at any specific point in time. Quoting %s and amounts to feed just gets
newbies off on the right foot, until they can run on their own. ; )

I'd start Moxie off on one meal a day, whatever you decide the amount to be,
unless after a couple days you see that there is fall out; i.e. digestive
upset.

I wouldn't try for a quick weight loss, either, slower is better for her
health and peace of mind. : )
Looking at her cute pics, I'd say she didn't need a diet, but thats me.
Active dogs have more muscle mass and may weigh more than inactive dogs, but
look leaner.

I'd eliminate treats entirely, at first. Manage her environment so that she
can't help herself to snacks, too. Child proof latches on cabinets and metal
containers with solid latching lids work great - keeping stuff in the
fridge, freezer and oven works, too ^_^

Give her bully sticks, or a couple beef or lamb ribs or pork neck bones to
keep her mouth and teeth occupied.

Keep her busy and tired, if possible - if she's tired, then she'll be less
likely to go hunting for stuff to hoover up and she'll burn more cals. Find
it and fetch games in the house can keep her mentally busy, so that she's
less likely to look for food.

Ideally, I'd move her from one meal a day to every other day, to Big Food
and no food days, so that she can experience being able to eat to satiety,
which helps a dog to learn to self regulate and relax - but that will happen
with time, maybe after several months.

For a 'how to' to start, check out this archived post;

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374 *

*post # 141374*
TC and let us know about your progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Jan 4, 2008 3:21 PM, ekendahl <robert@ekendahl.org<robert%40ekendahl.org>>
> wrote:
> > > From: "SoldierGrrrl" <soldier.grrrl@...>
> > >
> > > Moxie should be at a healthy weight of about 15 lbs. If I feed her
> > > 2-3% of her body weight, that works about to about seven ounces a
> > > day. I'd probably round up to eight ounces
> >
> ##Not sure how you did your math. If I put "15 lbs * 3% to oz" into
> > google (yes, they have a smart calculator as well) I get 7.2 oz and
> > "15 lbs * 2% to oz" I get 4.8 oz.##
> >
> > So to me, 8 oz seems like a lot for her. Unless she's very active my
> > guess would be that 5 oz/day is more appropriate.
>
> She's a terrier. To say that she's hyper would be an understatement.
> :-) Also, we do try and walk/jog/stagger 2-4 miles a day. We're
> working up to a 5k.
>
> Sorry if my math's off. I guess it's also that I can't imagine giving
> the muttlet a half-cup (or just a shade over) of food every day. I
> realize she's not a human, but that's not much food to look at.
>
> Jen
> --
> Blonde. It's not just a hair color; it's a way of life.
>
>
>

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8. Portion sizes for a 40 pounder
Posted by: "k9_smiley" k9_smiley@yahoo.com k9_smiley
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 8:49 pm ((PST))

Hi all,

I'm once again back to get some inspiration to tweak my girl's diet.
She's a 2 year old Border collie mix who's been raw fed (mostly) since
we adopted her at 6 months. Over the past months her diet has become
somewhat ad hoc: she gets what I can buy, when I buy it, which means
mostly chicken quarters and turkey backs, eggs, beef liver, and other
red meat when it's on sale. It's time to put some oomph in there, and
be a little more deliberate about choosing the best foodstuffs for her.

However, I'm a little stumped. Can anyone with a similar size dog
(She's just over 41 pounds but could stand to put on a bit of padding;
fairly active, we go jogging about 5 times a week) give me some
examples of what they might feed on a regular basis, whether they're
feeding twice daily, once daily, or gorge-n-rest? Mieke's never been
much of a gorger, as evidenced by her snubbing of the lovely pork leg
I gave her tonight. :( (She'll get it again in the morning.)

For that matter, how does one start introducing a dog to the concept
of Big Meals, without starving her into desperation?

Thanks!
Best,
Alison and Mieke

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9a. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
Posted by: "mathamgri" mathamgri@yahoo.com mathamgri
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 9:42 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Evie" <archie.willow@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Guys,
> On another forum there is an on going debate as to how essential
veg
> and fruit are to a dogs diet.
>
> I argue that it's not species appropriate, dogs are carnivores etc
> etc.

It's a pleasure to talk to people about raw who are open-minded and
interested and a waste of time to argue with people who are not. I
see one of my best friends almost every day, an extreme dog lover.
Not too long ago he had nine dogs, now he's down to six. His
geriatric dogs are experiencing health problems. He has lots of vet
bills. One of the dogs that died was only four. He's had a myriad of
problems, as did I when I fed Solid Gold. He feeds canned and dried
Pedigree and Kibbles and Bits. He cooks chicken and turkey and
various roasts for his dogs. He is very opposed to feeding raw. One
day he said he had to rush home as he had a turkey in the oven for
the dogs. I asked him why he didn't just feed it to them raw. No!
Never! One of his dogs is a littermate to my two-year-old. I can see
the difference. This is one of my best friends and this is a subject
we can't discuss.

I can understand why people don't want to change. It requires
examining yourself in a profound way. Especially if you have espoused
your ideas and beliefs to others, as I tend to do. I personally had
to admit that I bought into one of the stupidest myths of all. Dogs
should have kibble, no table scraps, and no variety. I had to admit
that I let someone else do my thinking for me, even when I had
nagging little doubts (people are supposed to choose from a wide
variety of fresh foods, canines do best on over-cooked kibble of
dubious origin). Duh! What was I thinking? I wonder sometimes what
other idiotic things I might be doing because I'm not paying
attention! At least the veg feeders are trying to do something
positive, even if some of us don't agree with their methods. It's a
giant step up from kibble.

Hannah

Messages in this topic (16)
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10a. loose stools/really need some feedback
Posted by: "marge" marge_moriarty17551@yahoo.com marge_moriarty17551
Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 3:17 am ((PST))

Hi everyone, This is a bit longer than usual..need guidance.

I am into 1+ months of raw feeding my two mini poodles.
Foxy seems to have very soupy stools and seems to go frequently. I
had originally started off with chicken and have since introduced
pork, some beef and some veal (more pork). He seemed to be handling
the new meats fine so I began to cut back on the chicken backs/bone
and increased meaty meat. At first I was just using pork as new
meat. Then the following week and off and on before this I gave a
little beef. This week I gave them some veal (I should only eat so
good!).

One more thing. I tried to introduce canned salmon in water..no
additives. I gave a tbs each last week. This may have cause loose
stools. I also gave foxy a taste of fish oil (less than teaspoon).
Pepper didn't want it. Maybe even these minute amounts didn't agree
with him?

In general, I find that I do need to give Foxy just a little more
bone than I was hoping...So now I will feed meaty meat for most meals
but about three times a week I do give him some back or thigh bone
along with his meat.

Pepper does not need this as he is more constipated so requires less
bone. I give him a back about once a week. This comes out to about
10% of his his total diet. Pepper however has trouble tackeling meaty
meat on bone. He takes forever and then will walk away. Last night
he had a thigh. I had to scissor it and eventually (after 30 min.) I
finally had to cut reamaing meat off bone. He finally came back and
ate it...but otherwise gets frustrated I think. I am trying not to
make it too easy for him but I feel I do need to let him eat. I only
cut it totally off bone as absolut last resort. I usually leave it
cut it away from bone in steps...trying to make him work.

I have yet to add organ meat but feel rushed to do so as they have
been eating raw for 1+months. Pepper probably could tolerate it
now..I am concerned with Foxy. I have chicken livers in fridge but
am afraid to feed...not sure how much.

I know this is a long post but I just need some guidance or
reassurance.

Thanks, Marge

Messages in this topic (2)
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10b. Re: loose stools/really need some feedback
Posted by: "Eddie Scholten" shirl-ed@hotmail.com shirley11964
Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 4:29 am ((PST))

Hi Marge,

I'm also recent to raw-feeding with a new puppy, so have had all the loose stool issues to deal with too. I think we're into our 6/7 week now.

I found that I had to feed a lot of bone (chicken backs) in addition to chicken on the bone (leg/breast) for a long time before I finally got to the stage of consistently firm (almost white poo) which told me that I was then in a position to reduce some bone, which I did by cutting out the chicken backs. My pup now eats a variety of meaty meat, and hearts and some liver, and remains firm in the poo department.

I'm sure you'll get lots of more experienced guidance, but I just wanted to share my 'newbie' experience with you.

Regards,

Shirley.

To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.comFrom: marge_moriarty17551@yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________________
Jouw nieuws en entertainment, vind je op MSN.nl!
http://nl.msn.com/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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11. New to raw, 8mo puppy gulping
Posted by: "cindicarter1966" cindicarter@comcast.net cindicarter1966
Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 5:23 am ((PST))

Hi, I'm Cindi.

My 8mo old puppy (20lb poodle mutt) has been eating raw for a week or
so. I've looked in the archives, but I still have a question or two.

I've been feeding him chicken breast meat with bone but no skin or
fat. We started raw because of a sudden bout with diarrhea and
someone I know recommended it. Any way, yesterday I looked at his
poop and it is finally not totally pudding. I was very pleased and
thought that we were well on our way to a raw feeding success.

In the middle of the night, Lucky threw up what appears to be an
unchewed hunk of bony chicken breast and meat. Although I'm in the
same room as him while he's eating, I turned around yesterday morning
and he obviously gulped a thigh-sized hunk of breast meat with lots
of rib bones. It happened so fast. I'm guessing that's what he
threw up. It was weird. It looked like a huge log of poop, brown in
color and I'm shocked that he didn't choke on the thing!

I'm assuming I need to give much bigger portions sizes, but I cut up
several leg quarters and a whole chicken. I only have 2 days
portions left that are skin and fat free and that I cut from the
orignal breast. Then I was going to start feeding the pieces of a
whole chicken and quarters that I cut up (split the leg and thighs
etc). Apparently I shouldn't have cut it up, but I did. Is it
unsafe to give him a leg only or a thigh only? Will those bigger
bones make it less likely to gulp or more do you think?

What about the back that i cut up also?

Is there anything else I can do to make gulping less likely and to
get through the bunch of chicken I cut up that I don't want to waste?

Thanks in advance,

Cindi and Lucky Dog

Messages in this topic (1)
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