Feed Pets Raw Food: [rawfeeding] Digest Number 12222

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Brand new puppy
From: marclre

2a. Re: Newbi eIntro
From: Andrea
2b. Re: Newbi eIntro
From: jaygaughan
2c. Re: Newbi eIntro
From: Andrea
2d. Re: Newbi eIntro
From: KIMBERLY
2e. Re: Newbi eIntro
From: costrowski75
2f. Re: Newbi eIntro
From: jaygaughan

3. insight from a newbie
From: babyboyfila1

4a. Re: We also have a new pup and a million questions
From: Andrea
4b. Re: We also have a new pup and a million questions
From: costrowski75

5a. Re: Salmonella question
From: Andrea
5b. Re: Salmonella question
From: marlena_adema
5c. Re: Salmonella question
From: Howard Salob
5d. Re: Salmonella question
From: amvilppu

6a. Re: Allergies in raw vs. cooked meats
From: Andrea
6b. Re: Allergies in raw vs. cooked meats
From: mgitaville

7a. 7# Chihuahua Ready for more than chicken
From: autumnji@aol.com
7b. Re: 7# Chihuahua Ready for more than chicken
From: Andrea
7c. Re: 7# Chihuahua Ready for more than chicken
From: Kelly

8a. Re: How Long to Freeze Fresh Venison (first time)
From: Tina Berry
8b. Re: How Long to Freeze Fresh Venison (first time)
From: helpshelteranimals
8c. Re: How Long to Freeze Fresh Venison (first time)
From: mgitaville

9a. Re: Eating less normal?
From: susrob061174

10a. Re: ground food
From: Sandee Lee
10b. Re: ground food
From: costrowski75

Messages
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1a. Re: Brand new puppy
Posted by: "marclre" marclre@aol.com marclre
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:36 am ((PDT))

"why do you say no chicken necks? Cornish game hens. Where do you
get
them? I looked at the rodent supply link someone was kind enough to
include, but they don't have game hens."

***Tamara - cornish game hens are just miniature chickens and so my
feeling is they're not worth the ridiculous price I'd have to
shell out around here...for heavens sake the ones I can get don't
even
have guts left in. If I'm gonna splash out I'd rather it was for
something really special that can't be duplicated by something else.
Grass fed meat for instance...which you can get if you look for. Or
range fed poultry which you can also find if you look hard enough.
Just
hack up a bog-standard chicken and for your pup the effect will be
the
same believe me ;) I agree with Chris and wouldn't feed necks
separately either, your boy will enjoy the bird just as much with it
still
attached so why look for hassle? He would enjoy the heck out of a
jelly doughnut too probably ;);)Nope Rodentpro doesn't have game hens
but they do have quail. Also not cheap but as a high quality whole
prey
item, *much* better value. Still getting the feeling you're thinking
teeeeeny tiny.
Marie-Claire ;)***

Messages in this topic (13)
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2a. Re: Newbi eIntro
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:38 am ((PDT))

Hi, Jay, welcome to the group. Sounds like you're doing fine, we are
just having confusion with terminology is all. In the raw feeding
world BARF generally refers to a system of feeding that relies on
ground foods, a veggie "slop" with loads of expensive supplements and
more bare bones. This group follows a much more relaxed natural style
of feeding that attempts to recreate what our carnivorous friends would
eat in the wild.

>Whole prey and practical representation??? Are you telling me you feed
> whole chickens with feathers or a full size Doe to your dogs?

If I could I sure would! But alas, it is not in the cards for me and
many of us on this list. Instead we try our best to give a variey of
parts from a variety of animals in the same general proportions you
would find in a prey animal. That is, mostly meat, some bone, and some
organ.

> Is there any guidelines here I can read up on?

The best thing is to just read all the posts from day to day here. We
have lots of newbies coming in every day and so the guidelines are
covered often. Also you could get a copy of Tom Lonsdale's books "Raw
Meaty Bones" is a more scientific read and "Work Wonders" is a good
newbie book. These cover the "why" of raw feeding, not so much
the "how."

Andrea

Messages in this topic (9)
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2b. Re: Newbi eIntro
Posted by: "jaygaughan" jaygaughan@yahoo.com jaygaughan
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:53 am ((PDT))

Thank you Andrea. I do plan on a totally raw diet for my new family
member. So I guess I should be careful about calling raw feeding BARF
from now on.

I have a problem with the thought of letting my dog eat any dead
animal that is still intact. I would think this could be very
confusing to my dog. How do you tell him it's okay to eat a dead deer
I drag out of the woods for him and not the ones walking around in my
yard?

It's totally illegal to hunt down animals with a dog here in CT as in
most other states. If anyone sees a dog chasing down a deer or any
game animal they can legally shoot the dog on sight.

I have deer and turkeys in my yard daily. I don't want my dog
thinking its meal time when he smells or sees a deer and starts
chasing one down.

Also the taste and smell of fresh blood being associated with meal
time pops up flags in my book. 190lbs of hungry Great Dane that likes
the taste of blood just doesn't sit well with me.

I can get fresh meat for my dog all year. But it will all be bled out
and butcher by me prior to him getting his portions.

Jay

Messages in this topic (9)
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2c. Re: Newbi eIntro
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:45 am ((PDT))

It's actually not as confusing as you might think. It breaks down
like this, you are the hunter in the pack. *You* bring home food and
thus he never has to. After all, it is a lot of work to bring down
an animal. A dog with a naturally high prey drive will chase animals
no matter what he is fed. Feeding a raw diet to a dog doesn't create
a high prey drive. It's really a training issue to keep the dog from
chasing the deer and turkeys in the yard, same as you would have to
do if you fed doom nuggets. Dogs don't become bloodthirsty because
they eat a proper diet.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@...>
wrote:

> I have a problem with the thought of letting my dog eat any dead
> animal that is still intact. I would think this could be very
> confusing to my dog. How do you tell him it's okay to eat a dead
> deer I drag out of the woods for him and not the ones walking
> around in my yard? <snip> Also the taste and smell of fresh blood
> being associated with meal time pops up flags in my book. 190lbs of
> hungry Great Dane that likes the taste of blood just doesn't sit
> well with me.

Messages in this topic (9)
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2d. Re: Newbi eIntro
Posted by: "KIMBERLY" currysmax@embarqmail.com currysmax
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:17 am ((PDT))

Thank you Andrea because I had the same fears but your response makes since.

Kimberly

----- Original Message -----
From: Andrea <poketmouse45@yahoo.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:45:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Newbi eIntro

It's actually not as confusing as you might think. It breaks down
like this, you are the hunter in the pack. *You* bring home food and thus he never has to.

Feeding a raw diet to a dog doesn't create a high prey drive. Dogs don't become bloodthirsty because
they eat a proper diet.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (9)
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2e. Re: Newbi eIntro
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:51 am ((PDT))

"jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@...> wrote:>
> Please excuse me if I'm not familiar with the proper terminology
just
> yet Chris.
>
> As a newbie to raw feeding I kind of associated all raw feeding
with
> BARF (Bone And Raw Food).
*****
Hmm. Did you take the time to read the Admin Messages you received
when your subscription was approved? One of them addresses the
term "BARF" as well as the more representative "raw feeding". Here
is the beginning paragraph:

"On this list, we only use the term "raw feeding". Sometimes we call
it the "prey model", which refers to the way that carnivores were
designed to eat, of course.

It's a simple generic term, and we don't have to then spend a lot of
time
explaining an acronym that most people find distasteful and some even
associate
with vomit."

If you zoomed through the new subscriber messages you received or
blew them off entirely, I recommend you go find them and read them.
My guess is your questions will be fully and cheerfully answered in
those admin posts. If you cannot find them, I will be happy to send
them to you again.

> As I stated I am getting another Great Dane. So ground up meats or
> little chicken necks won't be necessary. Although my breeder did
> start the litter out with ground meat from what she told me.
*****
Yes, a litter before it is weaned can be introduced to raw meat and
bones through grinding although it's increasingly common for
rawfeeders to offer carcasses and whole meats for the puppies to mess
with. Very quickly after weaning the pups learn to eat whole (or
gently smashed) raw food. However, by the time the pup arrives at
its forever home, whole raw--not ground--is preferable.

And that whole raw food would be just like the adults eat, but
smaller. Meat, edible bone, organs.

> it seems all my dogs have
> enjoyed some veggies. I enjoy gardening and one of my other Danes
> used to pick his own green beans every time I was in the garden
with
> him.
*****
I personally think regular access to a garden is pretty artificial;
but in general windfall veggies and fruit represent--in a dim and
distant way perhaps--what wolves may come upon in their travels.
There is no need, at any rate, to use premeditated vegetation in a
dog's (ot puppy's) menu.

> "What we prefer to discuss and prefer to feed is whole prey or
> practical representations thereof"
>
> I'm a little lost on this part. Whole prey and practical
> representation??? Are you telling me you feed whole chickens with
> feathers or a full size Doe to your dogs?
*****
I am telling you that it's the model, the guideline that brings to
our carnivore's (our domestic wolf's) diet the most appropriate
foods. Yes, I do feed whole feathered chickens sometimes, but not
always. No, I've not let my dogs feed on a doe but that's only
because I have none to offer. They do eat whole chickens and turkeys
and rabbits and baby goats and if not all of their food is whole what
isn't is dished out in hunks.

The practical representation is a feeding plan that includes a
variety of meats and a variety of body parts. Not a lifetime supply
of chicken wings, not a truckload of turkey necks. Not just chicken
necks but also chicken quarters and backs and feet. Not just heart,
but also liver and gizzard.

Not just pork neck bones, but also pork shoulders and feet and
haunches and loins and ribs and brisket and ears and tails. Not just
pork meat but pork organs--heart, liver, spleen.

Not just ground beef, but ribs and necks and whole tails and meaty
shanks and feet. Not just liver but also heart and spleen and
pancreas and tongue and unprocessed green tripe.

The most natural way to fully nourish your dog is though the food you
feed. Whole critters (however you assemble them) are one big,
ungainly, perfectly balanced vitamin tablet.

Is there any guidelines here I can read up on?
*****
Well, no doubt browsing the list archives will be enlightening.

You should also suss out<http://rawfeddogs.net> for some excellent
recipes. And you should take the time to read <http://rawfed.com>
Both websites should provide I think a good beginning education.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
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2f. Re: Newbi eIntro
Posted by: "jaygaughan" jaygaughan@yahoo.com jaygaughan
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:08 pm ((PDT))

Sorry Andrea. I'm not trying to debate you on this. It's just something
I have not heard of in anything I read as far as feeding raw. Out of
the norm for me.

You are correct Andrea. This is a training issue.

I won't have anything to worry about.

Jay

Messages in this topic (9)
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3. insight from a newbie
Posted by: "babyboyfila1" babyboyfila1@yahoo.com babyboyfila1
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:40 am ((PDT))

When I first started feeding raw in the back of my head, I had the
old stuff pecking away...no chicken bones....etc...
Well let me share with you some mind settling advice.

I started raw feeding about 9 months ago...

My dog had no idea what to do with a turkey neck...he sat there and
looked at it. Now he will eat 3 or 4 for a breakfast snack. He lets
me know when he is full and they are very satisfied. Hardly any
begging at all. Shiney coat, clean teeth, energy.

Chicken backs...same thing...what the heck mom?
Now he eats them with delight... I freeze them, because my guys like
frozen treats. I have a boxer that will eat really meaty beef ribs.

I was worried about portion size as well at first...but don't, they
will let you know. I haven't had a problem with them over eating.
They eat, they get full and if they are still nosing around, I offer
a little more and most times, they just wanted to make sure things
were in order and turn it down. I put it in the fridge for
later...no waste.

I don't give cut pork bones or any cooked bones. But I do feed
boneless pork chops. I have an old dog who loves boneless chicken
breasts that are frozen.
I also freeze balls of hamburger and they think that is the greatest
thing in the world.

there is really great advice here.

As a matter of fact my vet won't listen to how I feed my dogs, all
she keeps saying is pancreatitis.
I say look at them...

I am looking for a vet in or around cocoa who is open to raw feeding,
but it is proving quite difficult.

Good luck and just sit back and enjoy watching your dogs eat as close
to natural as we can provide and know that they will benefit from it.
Dawn

Messages in this topic (1)
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4a. Re: We also have a new pup and a million questions
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:02 am ((PDT))

Hi, Aldona, congrats on the new pup!

> I fed him chicken wings, which apparently is not advised on this
> list. Or did I misunderstand something?

Wings aren't recommended because they are pretty small and it is too
easy for an eager pup to try and swallow it whole, also because they
are soo heavy on bone. As you found out, feeding a really boney meal
often results in bone bit vomit later.

> Anyway, he ends up barfing up the biggest bone of the wing. Seems
> he doesn't break up the bones well enough. So now I chop off wing
> tip part, and grind the other.

The problem was that there wasn't enough meat with the bone, not that
he wasn't chewing the bone properly. Feed larger foods with more
meat, more like a chicken quarter, and you'll be ok.

> Now with pup Marley, I'm a total rookie. Billinghurst recommends
> one diet, Wendy Volhard recommends a different but similar diet, so
> which diet does this list recommend?

It boils down to one scientific fact: dogs are carnivores, not
omnivores, and they should be fed accordingly. That means a variety
of parts from a variety of animals. Mostly meat, some bone, some
organ. That's it, no mixing, no supplements, no grinding. Boring
book, huh?

> I'm just so unsure of myself. I'm not sure, do I supplement during
> the pup months? or not?

No supplementing needed. A good prey model diet gives everything a
growing pup could need in the right proportions. Well, depending on
whether or not you get grassfed meat, you might want to give fish oil
to add omega 3 fatty acids to the diet.

> Should I give brewer's yeast? Vit. E in form of oils? Kelp? I put a
> half a teaspoon of crushed egg shells with his breakfast meal,
> which consists of oatmeal, milk, honey, brewer's yeast, kelp, oil.
> He's not very fond of this first meal of the day, I'm sorry to say,

He's a smart pup! He doesn't need any of that stuff.

> Our vet has also told me several times already, that Marley is
> gaining too much too fast,

Rawfed pups often grow more slowly and steadily than their ki**lefed
brothers. Both of my pups grew so slowly that I didn't notice until
I saw older pictures of them. Your vet may mean he is growing too
quickly, not that he's gaining too much weight.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (3)
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4b. Re: We also have a new pup and a million questions
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:24 am ((PDT))

GoldenGirlAldi <aldona99@...> wrote:
> I fed him chicken wings, which apparently is not advised on this
list. Or did I misunderstand something?
*****
No, you didn't misunderstnad something. Except for (some) cats or
small dogs, chicken wings deliver too much bone/not enough meat and
are frequenly the right size for misjudged swallowing. Chicken wings
attached to a larger hunk of bird are more useful.

Anyway, he ends up barfing up the biggest bone of the wing. Seems he
doesn't break up the bones well enough. So now I chop off wing tip
part, and grind the other. After reading the past few posts on the
subject, I'm reading I shouldn't grind anything up for him.
*****
No you should not grind. Time on the job will help your pup fully
digest bones (chicken bones are easily digestible soon enough) and
horking up the indigestible bits is a healthy response to irritants.
Feed body parts with more meat and less bone and this is much less
likely to happen.

Billinghurst recommends one diet, Wendy Volhard recommends a
different but similar diet, so which diet does this list recommend?
*****
Neither Billinghurst nor Volhard are attuned to whole prey and the
significance it has to a simple, healthy species appropriate diet. I
would utterly dismiss both of these resources as out to lunch.

If you need to read a book, read Tom Lonsdale's "Work Wonders", which
costs about 10 bucks and has got at least 10 bucks worth of useful
information in it.

> I'm just so unsure of myself. I'm not sure, do I supplement during
the pup months? or not?
*****
Not.
What your pup needs is in the food you feed. If it's not, change the
food you feed.

Should I give brewer's yeast? Vit. E in form of oils? Kelp?
*****
Stop! Stop all this artifice. No brewer's yeast to pup or adult,
vitamin E if you can't bear not feeding it but it's not a puppy thing
so if you didn't feed it to your adult dogs you do not have to feed
it to the pup. Kelp is totally irrelevant. So is alfalfa. A
species appropriate diet has got the nutrients in it, naturally.

I put a half a teaspoon of crushed egg shells with his breakfast
meal, which consists of oatmeal, milk, honey, brewer's yeast, kelp,
oil.
*****
Oh dear oh dear. Please, no more. No more crushed eggshells, ho
more oatmeal (no more grains not ever, nope, never) no milk, no
honey, no brewer's yeast, no kelp. And unles the oil you offered was
salmon oil, no oil either.

There is NOTHING in that meal that is appropriate for a dog. Please
get RID of Ian and Wendy. What you feed is not healthy, if you got
this recipe from either of them, they are not healthy advisors.

Your pup needs what adults need: meat, edible bone, organs.
EVERYTHING else is extraneous. Everything.

Our vet has also told me several times already, that Marley is
gaining too much too fast, even though I can easily feel his rib
cage.
*****
Probably the grains. An inappropriate diet will grow pups
inappropriately. Once you get rid of the junk and focus on meat,
meaty bones and organs (in amounts useful to a bitsy pup) your baby
will grow more slowly and will develop muscle instead of fat.

I am glad your vet is concerned about fat pups, since most vets
appear to ignore weight issues entirely for fear of insulting their
human patients. Bah. Keep your pup lean and fit. Fat goldens have
bad hearts and bad joints. Moreso even than goldens in general do.

this pup sure does have large poops in between. Sometimes he poops
three times in one outing! So I then think, gee, maybe I'm giving him
too much!
*****
You probably are; certainly the grains you feed will bulk up not only
him but also his stools. Remember: meat, edible bone, organs.

He will go up and down on his own, if I let him, but I already had a
dog with real bad HD on both of her hips, and with our other "then"
pups, we also carried them up for the longest time.
*****
HD isn't likely to come from gently using the stairs, it's genetic.
My guess is you got yourself a monster golden. He's going to weigh
more than a "standard" golden so your vet will never be comfortable
with his scale weight: you have to maintain his functional weight
based on your observations.

It is especially important to get the grains out and keep them out.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Re: Salmonella question
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:06 am ((PDT))

> Should I not raw feed my dog because she's already
> been 'vaxed2thamax'?

The only way you'll begin to fix any immune system damage is to give
her a healthy diet. Continuing to feed her junk food isn't the
answer.

> Could that have weakened her immune system enough to make her
> vulnerable to salmonella?

Doubtful. Lots of raw fed dogs have seen lots of vaccines and have
never been overrun by salmonella.

> How could I find out if my dog in fact has a weakened immune system?

If it was weakened to the point that she couldn't handle a the
bacteria that might be on raw food you would know by now. She's been
eating raw for a month now, right? She's fine.

> What about if someone feeds my dog something she shouldn't have -
> or she eats something outside that doesn't digest as quickly as
> chicken and the chicken takes longer to come out. In that case
> could the salmonella multiply inside her or something, and make her
> sick?

You're really making a mountain out of a molehill here. I've seen
pretty unhealthy dogs switch to a raw diet without bacterial
overgrowth. Though vaccines do challenge the immune system they
aren't going to break it down to the point that a dog can't handle
normal bacteria. Otherwise the entire country would be filled with
dogs on their deathbeds.

> What about if I miss a spot while cleaning the floor where she's
> eaten raw chicken. Is there a chance if she licks that spot a day
> later that enough salmonella to sicken her?

Time to take a breath. You can't make the world sterile for her, and
you shouldn't want to. Bacteria are around, they always have been.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (15)
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5b. Re: Salmonella question
Posted by: "marlena_adema" marlena_adema@yahoo.ca marlena_adema
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:14 am ((PDT))

Hi Alex,

I too am new to the raw diet, and I totally get your concerns! The
biggest one for me also, was salmonella. When I first started I
would disinfect the counters, the mat on which my dog ate, my hands
and anything else I thought got exposed to the evil bacteria. I
reasoned that yes, a dog could probably deal with the quantities of
salmonella present on a freshly thawed chicken, but what about the
colonies that grew on the floor where I didn't clean? And what
about me? Could I infect myself or others by contaminated areas in
my house where bacteria was growing out of control!? OMG!

But as I kept reading the messages posted here (and this seems to be
a big issue out there for newbies), I slowly relaxed. The veterans
keep assuring us they have been doing this for years w/o the extreme
care us newbies exercise, and they have had no problems. Indeed, an
earlier post talks about 10,000 members and no-one has reported
salmonella poisoning.

Of course you want to use good hygiene when dealing with chicken and
any other raw food - that goes w/o saying. But perhaps our culture
is overly obsessed with disinfecting EVERYTHING and have made us all
a little too paranoid??? In all my research, I keep hearing about
salmonella fears, but I've yet to hear someone say they actually
went thru salmonella poisoning. I did some investigating for
specific cases of canine Salmonellosis, and didn't find anything on
the web. However, I did find this good article and hope it will put
your fears to rest:
http://www.mountaindogfood.com/HealthCare/Salmonella2.htm

Marlena

Messages in this topic (15)
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5c. Re: Salmonella question
Posted by: "Howard Salob" itiskismet1968@yahoo.com itiskismet1968
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:53 am ((PDT))

Dear Marlena,

I loved this article. People have asked me for the research and i did not have it until now. I love rawfeeding and believe it has helped saved my dog's life. I tell everyone I can and cannot thank the good people enough involved with this site- some include Chris O, Bill Carnes, Andrea and Giselle ( to name a few- there are many).

Sincerely,

Howard

marlena_adema <marlena_adema@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Hi Alex,

Marlena

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (15)
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5d. Re: Salmonella question
Posted by: "amvilppu" amvilppu@hotmail.com amvilppu
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:06 pm ((PDT))

> Hi Alex,
> Thought I would add this..maybe for your comfort :)...but I have
> crawled in bed with a chicken wing and a beef rib before. I have found
> chicken parts behind the plant stand in my living room, a rib bone
> stuffed in my couch...

Yes I learned to supervise meal time very closely after I went to bed and found a drumstick
buried in my down comforter. Not many places to bury treats in an apartment with a deck.

Annaliisa, Drew and Boxer pup Laila

Messages in this topic (15)
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6a. Re: Allergies in raw vs. cooked meats
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:39 am ((PDT))

I don't know that you really need studies to prove it. Someone is
allergic to something because their body sees a specific protein as
an antigen and produces antibodies to get rid of it. The protein
needs to be a specific shape in order for the antibodies to hook up
with it. Cooking denatures many proteins, that is, it changes their
shape, so they can't connect with the antibodies anymore. Or vice
versa, cooking changes the shape of the protein so that it *does*
hook up with an antibody.

Here's a website that has a good description of what allergies are
http://www.eufic.org/jarticle/en/food-nutrition-guide/food-
allergy/expid/basics-food-allergy-intolerance/
It's a long address, so the hyperlink might not work. I'm not saavy
enough to force the link, sorry. The page talks about allergies to
milk and how different methods of cooking the milk can reduce
allergic reactions in people.

This website talks about how many proteins in beef are denatured
during the cooking process:
http://allallergy.net/fapaidfind.cfm?cdeoc=133

"Beef contains BSA and bovine gamma globulin (BGG). These are heat
labile proteins found also in cow's milk. This may explain the
different clinical responses to raw and cooked beef in milk-allergic
patients. (Werfel ) 24 allergens found of which many are heat-labile
and denatured during cooking (Werfel)."

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Kristin" <girlndocs@...> wrote:

> I wonder if anyone here knows of an informative article or study on
> the subject?

Messages in this topic (5)
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6b. Re: Allergies in raw vs. cooked meats
Posted by: "mgitaville" mgitaville@hotmail.com mgitaville
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:23 pm ((PDT))

So, myself being one of those allergy dog owners who no longer has
such issues I feel the need to chime in. I was thinking that while I
as well know of no sources to prove your statement there is another
way to go about showing someone the difference of raw vs. cooked when
related to allergies....

Most owners I have found really do not understand the physical
reaction that occurs as Andrea was explaining in a previous post.
They do not realize that allergies are an immune system issue, plain
and simple. They also do not realize that what is perceived as a
food allergy is actually likely an inhalant allergy, but that is
another issue. When a histamine reaction occurs as a result of
contact with the allergen the "symptoms" of allergies we see are due
to an immune system that is over working itself to combat the
allergen. So, strengthen the immune system and we strengthen the
ability to deal with the allergen.

My point in all this babble is that while I can not provide you with
sources to prove your statement that we all know to be true, I would
think you could find sources that reference the strengthened immune
system from raw vs. comprised immune system from cooked/kibble.

A true food allergen isn't going to go away due to raw... I still
can't feed lamb and we are still allergic to wheat and various other
grains. The difference is now if someone comes by and gives my dog a
treat without asking we are not dealing with vomitting immediately
and explosive stools. His body can handle the small amounts of
allergen without OVER-reacting. Inhalant allergies are now able to
be dealt with while not overloading his system b/c we were able to
take the constant weakening of his immune system that was occurring
trying to deal with grains in his kibble.

Make sense at all? I could be incorrect in my explanation but this
is how I have always seen it. I have found sometimes the easier
explanation to give people is to talk of how it of course does not
cure allergies, but it strengthens the body's ability to deal with
the allergens.

Marguerita

Messages in this topic (5)
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7a. 7# Chihuahua Ready for more than chicken
Posted by: "autumnji@aol.com" autumnji@aol.com jayagurumayi
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:17 am ((PDT))

she's been doing great on chicken backs, organs
and necks for over 2 months. i mean really great.
she'll do anything i ask, for me to please put that bowl down.
moving on is long overdue.

if i give her a chicken quarter, do i let her try to eat the larger
bones, or remove them after she knaws off the meat?
is it permissible to ask butcher to quarter the chicken?
(sorry im a vegetarian and the meat counter is a whole new world)

what other meats should i ask for?

is there a raw egroup for small dogs? i love this group but
i have tons more small dog questions. or would any other little dog
people please email me a sample weekly diet? thanks.

autumn

**************************************
See what's new at

http://www.aol.com

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Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: 7# Chihuahua Ready for more than chicken
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:38 am ((PDT))

Little dogs may not be able to consume the large bones that large
dogs do, but they sure have a great time working on them! My
sister's chi does great with chicken bones, there isn't anything he
can't consume. I would suggest you serve anything we talk about here
for big dogs, just don't worry if she doesn't eat the bones. Edible
bone is a small part of the diet, so chicken and small animal bones
will do fine for that.

> is it permissible to ask butcher to quarter the chicken?

Absolutely.

> would any other little dog people please email me a sample weekly
> diet?

A sample diet for a little'un isn't all that different from the big
ones meals, really. When my sister's chi stays with me I end up
putting a lot of half eaten stuff back in the freezer so he gets a
variety of foods instead of eating the same rabbit for a week. Last
time he stayed with me he ate the following:
Beef heart and turkey neck
Rabbit
Pork shoulder
Chicken quarter
beef heart and turkey neck with some liver
goat and green tripe
rabbit

Of course he didn't eat all of each item, I just put the food down
and let him eat until he is finished.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (3)
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7c. Re: 7# Chihuahua Ready for more than chicken
Posted by: "Kelly" kelism@gmail.com vt_stuff
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:05 pm ((PDT))

On 10/30/07, autumnji@aol.com <autumnji@aol.com> wrote:
>
> if i give her a chicken quarter, do i let her try to eat the larger
> bones, or remove them after she knaws off the meat?

Let her eat the whole thing, she won't have a problem doing so. I have
chihuahuas that are about 3 lbs and they are able to eat any chicken bone I
give them.

what other meats should i ask for?

Anythning you see mentioned on the list goes for small dogs too. They may
not be able to consume the larger bones, but they will still be able to eat
anything a large dog can. I could send you a sample weekly diet, but it
probably won't be a huge difference from anyone's sample diet.

--
Kelly

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Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Re: How Long to Freeze Fresh Venison (first time)
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:17 am ((PDT))

"You mean I don't have to freeze at all????!!!"

Correct - mine eat it right out of the barrels fresh from the butcher (while
I'm trying to package it up and get it in the freezers LOL).
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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Messages in this topic (6)
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8b. Re: How Long to Freeze Fresh Venison (first time)
Posted by: "helpshelteranimals" helpshelteranimals@yahoo.com helpshelteranimals
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:06 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Tina Berry" <k9baron@...> wrote:

> Correct - mine eat it right out of the barrels fresh from the butcher
(while
> I'm trying to package it up and get it in the freezers LOL).
> --
> Tina Berry - MT
***********

How adorable! My dog has not shown any interest in the venison yet,
but one of my cats attacked it like nothing I've ever seen! It's from
a processing/taxadermy (sp?) place.

Thanks!

AG & Ruffian

Messages in this topic (6)
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8c. Re: How Long to Freeze Fresh Venison (first time)
Posted by: "mgitaville" mgitaville@hotmail.com mgitaville
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:31 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "helpshelteranimals"
<helpshelteranimals@...> wrote:

>
> How adorable! My dog has not shown any interest in the venison yet,
> but one of my cats attacked it like nothing I've ever seen! It's
from
> a processing/taxadermy (sp?) place.
>
> Thanks!
>
> AG & Ruffian
>

******Smaller quantities than normal is my recommendation!!!! Just my
experience after a 1am blowout the first 2 times I fed venison! It is
rich and new so I would cut back to a small amount the first time or 2
and make sure they can then handle more.

Marguerita

Messages in this topic (6)
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9a. Re: Eating less normal?
Posted by: "susrob061174" susrob061174@yahoo.com susrob061174
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:17 am ((PDT))

Tia,

<<During the past week or so he has been not wanting to eat in the
morning but does fine at dinner. Is it normal for him to be eating
less, (when he first started he seemed ravenous), just walking away,
and to only want to eat one meal a day?>>

This is normal not wanting to eat everytime. When a dog is getting the
correct food and nutrient, he may not want nothing, this is called
fasting. I fast, I don't know about anybody else, but I do it at least
once a week. In stead of getting meat or organs I give a meaty bone so
that they still think they are getting feed.

<<"Louie da Pug", 12 mos old and 25 lbs., has been on raw for about 3
months now,>>
<<this Pug looks more like a small Bulldog in the body and much
taller/larger that most.>>

You may be feeding to much too. A normal Pug should weight between 14
and 18 lbs, but that can depend on the parents and what they look
like. It is also so easy to overfeed and cause obesity on raw too.
That why you feed based on the dogs condition.

Susanne, Courtney & The Danes
Life is GRAND when you love a DANE! Have you licked you DANE today?:P

Messages in this topic (3)
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10a. Re: ground food
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:45 am ((PDT))

Hi Kitty,

Necks and backs will not provide enough meat and of course they will require
red meat, more variety and organs eventually. Better to feed nice whole
pieces and parts tho....you might want to read through the rawfeeding myths.
There is one specifically that pertains to ground food and feeding small
dogs!!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Ashley Myers" <miragehairsalon@yahoo.com>

> I was fortunate to find a raw supplier at a local farmers market who buys
from Lancaster Pa.
> Ihave three little dogs 15,11,& 5 lbs, all in good shape. Is it enough
to feed them ground chicken necks and backs?They enjoy it but I'm concerned
if they're getting enough or should I put more meat in?How about
gizzards,liver,hearts?
> He gave me some tripe,was anxious to try it but can't get past the
smell! The dogs loved it, little yorkie was a bit skeptical. Cat not so
much.

Messages in this topic (4)
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10b. Re: ground food
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:01 am ((PDT))

Ashley Myers <miragehairsalon@...> wrote:

Is it enough to feed them ground chicken necks and backs?
*****
No, it is not nearly enough. Enough bone, for sure. Too much bone,
actually. What's missing is meat--red meat in particular--and
organs. Oh, and what's also missing from their diet is whole food.

These small dogs are perfectly, absolutely, positively capable of
eating whole meats and organs, and chomping whole bones. Not big old
beef bones of course, but those chicken backs? You can hand them out
whole or perhaps (maybe at first) gently bashed. Those necks? You
can feed them whole to small dogs. To VERY small dogs they are of a
good size, although they do lack sufficient meat. YOu can let your
little ones work on whole pork necks, on lamb shanks, probably on
lamb chops and pork chops and whole beef and pork ribs as well. NOT
ground, whole. They may do little damage to these bones but little
is good for little dogs.

They enjoy it but I'm concerned if they're getting enough or should I
put more meat in?How about gizzards,liver,hearts?*
*****
Yes, heart and liver are essential. RED MEAT is essential. Gizzards
are not organs but they do contribute more meat to the menu, so yes,
feed them as well. Just don't grind them.

> He gave me some tripe,was anxious to try it but can't get past
the smell!
*****
It's a smell worth getting past. Tripe isn't a miracle food but you
need to get more meat into that diet and tripe is one way to do it.

While you may have to transition your cat slowly to whole raw foods,
you can take a more forthright approach with your dogs. Stop
grinding, start feeding whole bits and pieces. Whole cleans the
teeth and gums, exercises the body and the brain and includes
natural, built-in fun. Grinding is a one-way trip to dental issues
and gingivitis.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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Feed Pets Raw Food

Tuesday, October 30, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12222

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