[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12219

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. New to group
From: Heidi

2a. Introducing diff. Meat
From: Lynette
2b. Re: Introducing diff. Meat
From: katkellm

3a. Re: Brand new puppy
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: Great "recipe" website
From: costrowski75
4b. Re: Great "recipe" website
From: cmhausrath

5.1. Re: Deer - Chris O.
From: costrowski75
5.2. Re: Deer - Chris O.
From: helpshelteranimals

6a. Re: Newbi eIntro
From: costrowski75

7a. Re: Pregnant female not eating - update
From: joni savage

8a. Re: menu planning?
From: Nicole

9a. Eating carcass but not whole chicken?
From: Nicole
9b. Re: Eating carcass but not whole chicken?
From: carnesbill

10a. Re: {Raw Feeding} Took Max to the vet!
From: Brandi Bryant

11a. Don't know if this is an allowable question????
From: babyboyfila1
11b. Re: Don't know if this is an allowable question????
From: moemahood@aol.com
11c. Re: Don't know if this is an allowable question????
From: Karen Swanay
11d. Re: Don't know if this is an allowable question????
From: connie
11e. Re: Don't know if this is an allowable question????
From: moemahood@aol.com

12a. Re: Salmonella question
From: ginny wilken
12b. Re: Vaccine
From: Yasuko herron

13a. Re: Bella, yet again.
From: Renate

14. Allergies in raw vs. cooked meats
From: Kristin

15a. Re: Somebody kill me NOW
From: Shelly

16. Ok I know it has to be in here
From: deisel01

Messages
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1.1. New to group
Posted by: "Heidi" dolphin_6876@yahoo.com dolphin_6876
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:49 pm ((PDT))

Hi everyone, my name is Heidi and I live in Hannibal, Mo w/ my fiance,
3 kids, 4(soon to be 5) dogs, 2 cats, 5 rats, goose, and rabbit. I am
seriously considering to switching from cooked food and kibble to 100%
raw for the dogs and cats. I have read a lot on switching and it seems
to be to just do it. Will this cause any digestive problems instead of
switching over slowly?
Thanks,
Heidi

Messages in this topic (81)
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2a. Introducing diff. Meat
Posted by: "Lynette" lraefried@sbcglobal.net cherrysmomma
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:49 pm ((PDT))

Hi,

It is nearly time for me to introduce different meat source to Cherry,
41 lbs.

I have been feeding her once a day. So I have been giving her 1 lb of
chicken in morning and that is it. When I start the new meat source
should I just feed her one time a day like normal and give her 1/2 lb
of chick and 1/2 lb of new meat at the same time?

Lynette

Messages in this topic (2)
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2b. Re: Introducing diff. Meat
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:43 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Lynette" <lraefried@...> wrote:
When I start the new meat source
> should I just feed her one time a day like normal and give her 1/2 lb
> of chick and 1/2 lb of new meat at the same time?

Hi Lynette,
That is what i would suggest. You can even start with less than 50%
new meat if that makes you more comfortable, as in less chance of
possibly incurring a few loose stools. Gradually just increase the new
meat as you decrease the old one. KathyM

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: Brand new puppy
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:14 pm ((PDT))

tamara <tsfairish@...> wrote:
>
> Our family just adopted an adorable 9 week old Golden Retriever
puppy.
> The breeder said she fed raw and indicated that she would be
willing to
> mentor me with raw feeding, but she hasn't followed up.
*****
Well boy howdy but we can take care of you and the kid! Goldens tend
to be great raw eaters.

I've got a
> grinder, and I follow the recipe on
> http://www.catnutrition.org/recipes.php for my cat, who won't
crunch
> bones on his own (switched from kibble at 14 years old).
*****
No grinding, please. No mush, no supplements, no powders or elixirs
or blends. Whole foods for the whole dog. Can't beat the combo!

First, at what point do I go ahead and give puppy
> raw meaty bones, and which do I start with -- chicken wings or neck
or
> what?
*****
You start the first meal you feed the pup. By the time a pup is
ready for its forever home, it can be--and should be--eating meat,
meaty bones, organs. In appropriate amount and size of course, but
no question about it: meat, meaty bones, organs.

Necks? Never, unless they're attached to the bird. Wings? Never,
unless they're also attached to the bird.

A back might be useful, perhaps bashed a bit (or not, depending on
the bravado of the pup). Give serious consideration to buying whole
birds that you whack into puppy meals. Also very useful are cornish
game hens and whole quail, both of which can be purchased without too
much fuss. A nice TOM turkey neck can also feed and entertain young
pups. If the kid doesn't chomp much bone, that's okay. You'll be
feeding three if not four meals a day. You have plenty of time to
experiment with new flavors, textures, smells. Take advantage of
this limited time opportunity.

Also, how do you all package your pets meals for easy delivery?
*****
Ma Nature has done all the work. Raw meaty bones that are plenty
meaty are already packaged. A rib-in chicken breast for example is
already packaged. So are legs and thighs and leg quarters and wing
quarters. A hunk of meat is already packaged and ready to go.

Since there is nothing to make, there is nothing to assemble.

> so each baggie is a complete meal. No muss, no
> fuss. Does that sound feasible?
*****
IMO it sounds like too much fuss by half. When I started out I
really did try to file my dogs' meals, but it turned silly very
quickly. Mealtimes simply are not that complicated.

Other suggestions? With the cat, I
> grind it all up and put in snack baggies and freeze, so feeding is
not
> a problem for the cat.
*****
I've never produced prepared food for a healthy cat, but I can
understand why a cat reluctant to eat raw might benefit from all that
makework. However, healthy dogs (including pups) don't need any of
it. Whole meats, whole meaty bones for now; dribbled and drabbles of
liver soon enough: That's the ticket.

My BC pup (most recent addition to the family) from Meal One ate
venison and quail and game hens and chicken backs and beef and salmon
and chicken breast and turkey and lamb shanks and pork with little or
not help from a hammer or mallet. Maybe a tiny bit of chicken bone
bashing; otherwise, the job was performed by her and her teeth and
her jaws and her paws. And if a BC pup can handle the load, a golden
pup certainly can!

Your lovely pupster is not a cat. Feed him like the baby wolf he is.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
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4a. Re: Great "recipe" website
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:29 pm ((PDT))

"marlena_adema" <marlena_adema@...> wrote:
>> http://www.rawfeddogs.net/Recipes
>
> It would be great if someone with knowledge and experience could take
> a look at this website and confirm if it indeed is one to recommend.
*****
It is a great reference and is owned by a long-time--if often absentee--
member of the rawfeeding list.

It and http://rawfed.com are the websites I recommend most frequently.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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4b. Re: Great "recipe" website
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:01 pm ((PDT))

"marlena_adema" <marlena_adema@...> wrote:

> This website
> has a great page with photos and feeding suggestions.
> http://www.rawfeddogs.net/Recipes
>
> It would be great if someone with knowledge and experience could take
> a look at this website and confirm if it indeed is one to recommend.

Not only is this site owned by a list member (hi Kevin, if you're out
there!!), but I believe the recipe pages were suggested by (and
contributed to by) a bunch of other list members. I know my Griffster
is on there a couple times!

You can even trace the beginnings of Kevin's site by starting here:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/39252

And, if ever in doubt, remember that the list archives contain the
answers to many many questions. A quick search for "rawfeddogs.net"
gave over 1800 results!!

-- sandy & griffin

Messages in this topic (5)
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5.1. Re: Deer - Chris O.
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:37 pm ((PDT))

"helpshelteranimals" <helpshelteranimals@...> wrote:
> Should I not feed my cats the deer meat then? Yikes!
*****
I feed it to my cat because she would probably shred me if I did not.

If I have fed CWD venison, I am not aware of it. But then California
is doing its level paranoid best to prevent me from feeding vension
ever again. So CWD and my cat may never be an issue. If I have fed
CWD positive deer, nothing has happened to my cat.

I think your cat would be plenty safe were you to avoid giving her any
part of the spinal column--no brain, no neck, no backbone, no tail.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (65)
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5.2. Re: Deer - Chris O.
Posted by: "helpshelteranimals" helpshelteranimals@yahoo.com helpshelteranimals
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:23 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:

> I feed it to my cat because she would probably shred me if I did
not.
**********
Lol!!

> I think your cat would be plenty safe were you to avoid giving her
any
> part of the spinal column--no brain, no neck, no backbone, no tail.
> Chris O
**********

As always thank you for your informative posts! Most of us seem to
make things more complicated than they really are. You are such a
rational thinker!

AG, Ruffian, and the Cats (that love you for talking me into it!)

Messages in this topic (65)
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6a. Re: Newbi eIntro
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:45 pm ((PDT))

"jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@...> wrote:
> Time to start going over the tons post here. Hope I can contribute
> after I'm more knowledgeable in the BARF subject.
>
*****
Welcome, Jay.
Mostly we limit discussion of BARF to issues relating to vomit,
horking, upchucking, heaving, regurgitation and good old puking.

What we prefer to discuss and prefer to feed is whole prey or
practical representations thereof, and we try to base our choices on
food appropriate to the species we are feeding.

Therefore: no grain, no significant vegetables or fruit, no
significant ground or minced or chopped meats, no chicken necks
masquerading under the guise of raw meaty bones, no barenaked "rec"
(wreck) bones.

Not hardly BARF at all, but we're really glad to have ya here!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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7a. Re: Pregnant female not eating - update
Posted by: "joni savage" jonivelvet@yahoo.com jonivelvet
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:23 pm ((PDT))

You all were right! She was in early labor and had her pups later that night. She had three healthy pups and we were relieved Mishka (momdog) had a healthy whelping. She did great!

12 days later and all are doing well. Post-whelping, Mishka eagerly ate chicken liver (it's amazing how she knows just what her body needs) along with chicken hearts, gizzards and gradually (after a day or so) we were able to work in some ground chicken and bone. I had to hand feed her most of the time during the first week, and if she refused the ground chicken and bone, I would go back to giving her a piece of liver to prime the pump so to speak. Then once I got her eating again, I could sneak in some more chicken and bone.

In between three meat meals which included pork, lamb and raw egg, in addition to the chicken organs, meat and bone, we fed snacks of goat cheese and plain yogurt (with a little molasses mixed in to sweeten it and make it more appealing - and it worked! She loved it!) to make sure she was getting enough calcium.

This week she is back to eating her regular morning chicken bone - yeah! And other regular meals too. No problem. No more hand feeding from here on out hopefully. I'm excited to see how the pups will do with mom's food in a few weeks!

Thanks to everyone who responded to my original question!

Joni

nikkisevy@aol.com wrote: Joni,

Keep us posted on the big event. I hope all goes well and you have
healthy, happy pups and mom.

Nicole

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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Messages in this topic (7)
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8a. Re: menu planning?
Posted by: "Nicole" reotec@mertonrush.com.au mammosgrub
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:23 pm ((PDT))

Thank you for all your responses.
You have all helped me out.
he is doing really well - and enjoying the chicken.
Kindest regards
Nicole - and Maverick

Messages in this topic (6)
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9a. Eating carcass but not whole chicken?
Posted by: "Nicole" reotec@mertonrush.com.au mammosgrub
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:23 pm ((PDT))

Hi to all,
I have been feeding my dog for a week on raw - he has been getting 2
chicken carcasses, a drumstick, and a little bit of beef mince. The
first 2 meals were fresh, but the last ones the chicken had been in a
frozen lump when i give it to him and he has had fun chomping at it
and seems to have been enjoying his meal.

This morning i tried a whole chicken (no feathers - cut in half) it
had been frozen -but i thawed it to cut it for him.

He had a bit of a lick and then walked away. i tried to entice him -
but to no avail. (took off the skin - exposed the meat)

So about an hour after waiting for him to eat it - i gave in an gave
him a meal of frozen carcasses. he jumped up when he saw the bag and
then attacked it with great rellish!

Do i assume he didnt like the chicken thawed? or that it was whole? Or
it may have been something wrong with it?
Or should i have persevered and left it there for him to eat?
Is he getting enough meat with the above meal? I was worried that the
carcass doesnt have enough meat?

Thanks for any responses
Kindest Regards
Nicole & Maverick (9yo 50kg Rottweiler)

Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: Eating carcass but not whole chicken?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:57 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Nicole" <reotec@...> wrote:
>
> Do i assume he didnt like the chicken thawed? or that it was
whole?

Don't assume anything. It may have been the size that intimidated
him. I don't know how large your dog is. It may have been that he
didn't realize something that large was actually food.

>Or it may have been something wrong with it?

No, he would have probably eaten it if it had what humans would
describe as "something wrong with it". Dogs love "ripe" meat and it
doesn't hurt them.

> Or should i have persevered and left it there for him to eat?

You shouldn't have caved. Pickey eaters are made, not born. You
should take up a rejected meal after 10 minutes of no interest and
present it again next mealtime. No snacks or treats until next
meal. Offer him the same thing and keep repeating until he is the
one who caves. He will. No dog will starve himself in the presence
of food.

> Is he getting enough meat with the above meal? I was worried
> that the carcass doesnt have enough meat?

If what you are calling a "carcass" is the same thing I call
a "frame" he probably isn't getting enough meat. However, I believe
you said you are in the first week or so of raw feeding. Don't
worry about things like enough meat, too much bone now. Just work
to get him used to eating and digesting real food. There is time
enough to get the diet right a month or two down the road.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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10a. Re: {Raw Feeding} Took Max to the vet!
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:24 pm ((PDT))

After reading about Cushings disease, Max fits more along the lines with the
described symptoms. :(

I don't want to loose my baby boy!!!

Brandi
Bartlesville OK

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11a. Don't know if this is an allowable question????
Posted by: "babyboyfila1" babyboyfila1@yahoo.com babyboyfila1
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:22 pm ((PDT))

I have lurked here for a while now and have learned so much from you.
My dogs have done well with the raw diet. I have two rescue pups that
are now 7 months and 6 months and 1 week. Two different mothers, same
father and one really horrible breeder...they are having a real problem
with demodex mange. I really don't want to do the dip routine and the
puppy tried to bite the kennel help. I have heard that you can give
injectable ivermectin 1/10 of a cc to 10 pounds of body weight for
this. But I would like to know if anyone out there has tried a natural
cure and had it work or where I might be directed.

Sorry if this is an in appropriate question...but if anyone out there
could help me I felt you guys could.
Thanks
Dawn

Messages in this topic (5)
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11b. Re: Don't know if this is an allowable question????
Posted by: "moemahood@aol.com" moemahood@aol.com selfemployedhealth
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:36 pm ((PDT))

I have heard that you can give
injectable ivermectin 1/10 of a cc to 10 pounds of body weight for
this. But I would like to know if anyone out there has tried a natural
cure and had it work or where I might be directed.

Mange is usually found in a dog that has a compromised immune system.? A vet visit is advisable since this is a very uncomfortable and can be transmitted to humans.? Raw fed dogs have stronger immune systems than kibble fed dogs so that they will be less likely to contract.? Treat the dogs with what your vet advises you to do to avoid infecting anyone else and then make sure these pups are fed the best food possible to build their immune systems.

?Maureen

________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com

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11c. Re: Don't know if this is an allowable question????
Posted by: "Karen Swanay" luvbullbreeds@gmail.com kswanay1111
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:54 pm ((PDT))

Demodex is NOT transferrable to humans. Scabies is.
>

Karen

>
>

--
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."

LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07
DTC 8/10/07
Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors.

~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~

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11d. Re: Don't know if this is an allowable question????
Posted by: "connie" justbullies@hotmail.com bullienut
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:34 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, moemahood@... wrote:
>
>
>
>> Mange is usually found in a dog that has a compromised immune
system.? A vet visit is advisable since this is a very uncomfortable
and can be transmitted to humans.? >
>
> Demodectic mange is found on all dogs. A suppressed immune system in
a dog makes it hard to keep them in check. Saracoptic mange is highly
contagious..to animals and people. Here is a website that may be of
interest: http://www.botanicaldog.com/neem_oil.php

I have not had to
use this so I don`t know much about this product. But I do agree an all
natural diet plays a huge part in treatment.
Good Luck~connie~
and a bunch of bulldogs
www.justbullies.com

Messages in this topic (5)
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11e. Re: Don't know if this is an allowable question????
Posted by: "moemahood@aol.com" moemahood@aol.com selfemployedhealth
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:34 pm ((PDT))

Demodex in the dog is a common infestation of the dog's skin with tiny, cigar-shaped, eight-legged mites. Human demodex cases do occur but transmission from the dog to a human is quite rare.  Nevertheless, human cases of demodex do happen where transmission from a family pet to a human occurs.  (See a case of demodex in a human below.)  The mites reside and feed in the hair follicle and oil glands of the skin.  Also called Mange, which is a general term used to describe any kind of mite infestation, Demodex is generally less severe than Sarcoptic mites (often called scabies).

Rare but can happen -- especially if you have small children or older immune compromised adults.  Still get the dogs treated.

 Maureen

________________________________________________________________________
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Messages in this topic (5)
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12a. Re: Salmonella question
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:27 pm ((PDT))

On Oct 29, 2007, at 12:03 PM, KIMBERLY wrote:

>
> My question is:
> Does this mean that we should not be giving rawfed dogs any vaccines?
>

Since I wrote that, I'll say that it is my opinion, after years of
research and observations, that no dog should be given vaccines.
Immunity lies in health, not in vaccinations.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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12b. Re: Vaccine
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:59 pm ((PDT))

Hi,Kimberly.you can look good info if you go to rawfed.com site.

yassy

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13a. Re: Bella, yet again.
Posted by: "Renate" renate.tideswell@gmail.com tideswell_renate
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:36 pm ((PDT))

Thank you Sandee. I picked up more of the stuff she is willing to eat and
some whole chickens (on sale for buy one, get one free LOL). I thought I'd
try her with the backs - no way. She always did have a stubborn streak. I
seem to have the vet's little voice in my head saying, make sure she gets a
balanced diet..... She actually asked what I use for training treats and
when I said Rollover, she said 'At least part of her diet will be properly
balanced' I guess she doesn't get the fact that I'm not going to be doing
any agility training with Bella this far into a pregnancy, and training
treats do not a diet make, at least not in this house. If they are an
eighth of an inch square, they are lucky.

Her poo is still the same today, but why wouldn't it be?
Renate

On 10/29/07, Sandee Lee <rlee@plix.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Renate,
>
> I don't see anything wrong with what she is eating. It is normal for them
> to crave certain foods, refuse others (usually bone). I wouldn't worry
> about it...you don't need to add any supplements (especially calcium) or
> inappropriate foods. And yes, the color and consistency of her stool
> reflects what she is eating....meat, organs, no bone. No big deal!! :))
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
>
>

--
Renate
'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'

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14. Allergies in raw vs. cooked meats
Posted by: "Kristin" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:54 pm ((PDT))

Hi all,

I passed on the idea, on a dog discussion forum, that a dog allergic to cooked meat may not be allergic to that meat in a raw form.

I was asked if I have any studies or evidence to back that up and to my shame (normally I'm of the "make the claim, have the evidence" school) I don't.

I wonder if anyone here knows of an informative article or study on the subject?

Thanks,
Kristin
***
www.blackdogzoe.blogspot.com
Help a sweet puppy out of horrible Trumbull County Dog Pound! Ask me how!

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15a. Re: Somebody kill me NOW
Posted by: "Shelly" StuartLittle@comcast.net stuartjeanlittle
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:34 pm ((PDT))

One of my dogs (Lady) also hates the "slimy glibbery stuff", she won't touch
any raw poultry, or even rabbit. I still try to get her to eat it once in a
while, but she just won't, so she only gets red meats / organs / and gets her
bone mostly from oxtails. My border collie will do flips for rabbit, so
they're just like us I guess, they all have their favorite foods. I know,
Lady's got me wrapped, I tried the "if she's hungry she'll eat it" trick,
after two days I caved in, that look on her cute face was more than I could
take. If you really need her to finish up the hearts that you have, try
mixing it with green tripe, my dogs will eat anything mixed with tripe.

Shelly

On Friday 26 October 2007 13:42, jennifer_hell wrote:

...She hates slimey glibbery stuff...

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16. Ok I know it has to be in here
Posted by: "deisel01" deisel01@yahoo.ca deisel01
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:57 pm ((PDT))

But the X amount os posts i guess I will ask anyways. I hae 7 dogs the
are on hard kibble but I want to change them to raw, I want to start
with only 2 of them and see how it goes. My question is where do I
start? What do I feed for a biginning & how often?

Messages in this topic (1)
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