[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12217

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: tripe, now what?
From: Scott Baker
1b. Re: tripe, now what?
From: katkellm
1c. Re: tripe, now what?
From: Scott Baker

2a. Re: tripe and stool
From: costrowski75

3. A New pup in town!!!
From: Pauline

4a. Re: Bella, yet again.
From: Loraine Jesse
4b. Re: Bella, yet again.
From: Josephine Morningstar
4c. Re: Bella, yet again.
From: Josephine Morningstar
4d. Re: Bella, yet again.
From: Renate
4e. Re: Bella, yet again.
From: Josephine Morningstar
4f. Re: Bella, yet again.
From: Josephine Morningstar

5a. Re: runny stools
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: upset tummy
From: carnesbill
6b. Re: upset tummy
From: katkellm

7a. Brand new puppy
From: tamara
7b. Re: Brand new puppy
From: marclre
7c. Re: Brand new puppy
From: katkellm

8a. Re: Whole turkeys
From: Andrea

9a. Great "recipe" website
From: marlena_adema
9b. Re: Great "recipe" website
From: Casey Post
9c. Re: Great "recipe" website
From: carnesbill

10.1. Question
From: sphynxlover2

11a. sick cat
From: Felicia Kost
11b. Re: sick cat
From: Casey Post

12a. Re: starting feeding
From: carnesbill

Messages
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1a. Re: tripe, now what?
Posted by: "Scott Baker" scottsbaker@gmail.com scottpsbaker
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:16 am ((PDT))

My pup cleans his face off on th eground usually lol

On 10/29/07, MARJORY <birdgirl@hvc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> I wash their beards with one of those extra absorbent cloths and warm
> water after their meals. Any meat would make their beards smell if it wasn't
> cleaned off. They don't love that part, but.......
>
> And, my dogs' breath is very sweet. I've found that only their fuzzy faces
> will smell if I don't wash them.
>
> Marjory
>
>
> .
>
>
>

--
Scott

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (19)
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1b. Re: tripe, now what?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:31 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Baker" <scottsbaker@...> wrote:
> If anyone is interested, this is my pup eating and shaking and
ripping and
> tearing at his whole tripe :)

Hi Scott,
Ain't it cool how they shake their heads and then pull to eat. It
looks like a nothing meal when you feed it-like it will be a quick
meal- but it takes them awhile to wrestle it around. Maybe i have a
way boring life, but i look forward to watching them eat when tripe is
on the menu. Is is ok to post your link? KathyM

Messages in this topic (19)
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1c. Re: tripe, now what?
Posted by: "Scott Baker" scottsbaker@gmail.com scottpsbaker
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:47 am ((PDT))

Sure..share away :)

On 10/29/07, katkellm <katkellm@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com <rawfeeding%40yahoogroups.com>, "Scott
> Baker" <scottsbaker@...> wrote:
> > If anyone is interested, this is my pup eating and shaking and
> ripping and
> > tearing at his whole tripe :)
>
> Hi Scott,
> Ain't it cool how they shake their heads and then pull to eat. It
> looks like a nothing meal when you feed it-like it will be a quick
> meal- but it takes them awhile to wrestle it around. Maybe i have a
> way boring life, but i look forward to watching them eat when tripe is
> on the menu. Is is ok to post your link? KathyM
>
>
>

--
Scott

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (19)
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2a. Re: tripe and stool
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:19 am ((PDT))

MustBLuvSpaniels@... wrote:
>
> does feeding the tripe cause any loose stool? Lisa
*****
Might, might not.
Loose stools are generally caused by feeding too much food, too much
fat, or too much new stuff too soon. As with all news foods, feeding
to bowel tolerance is your best bet. So introduce green tripe--any new
food--gradually and increase the amount as the dog adjusts.

That said, my dogs have not ever responded inappropriately to green
tripe, but I didn't introduce the stuff until a year or so after they'd
been switched to raw. Which may or may not make a difference.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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3. A New pup in town!!!
Posted by: "Pauline" pblondeau46@yahoo.ca pblondeau46
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:31 am ((PDT))

Hello everyone! I haven't posted in a long time, but I sure have had
lots of help reading particular posts. I started feeding my collie raw
when she was about 4 months old and she is doing great!

Well this weekend we got a bit of a surprise. We had just come back
from our trip to Newfoundland and were going to pick her up at the
breeders. It' was then that our breeder offered us a little gift. A
blue Merle and white collie for free. The blue Merle has a heart
murmur and cannot be guaranteed so they just want to find him a good
home. How lucky we are.

Well the first night we brought him home I fed my collie girl some
ground up chicken necks and backs. (organic) That is the only reason I
give her ground because of the quality of the meat. I decided to
divide it and give the pup some. Well the pup ate all of his and
proceeded to eat Gracie's portion. heh heh heh

This morning I gave him a drumstick and he devoured it. I am so
pleased that he seems to love the raw....yay!! I know the reason I was
able to do this with confidence is that I had so much good advice and
encouragement from this group.

Thank you all.........

Pauline

Messages in this topic (1)
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4a. Re: Bella, yet again.
Posted by: "Loraine Jesse" rothburg@hotmail.com loraine_jesse
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:31 am ((PDT))

Josephine,
I know there are others on this group who will be able to go into detail and cover your entire email, during the last week of my gal's pregnancy I fed mostly meat (chicken & beef), beef heart, beef liver, beef kidney, boiled eggs with shell, canned salmon, canned sardines. I also gave Folic acid (was feeding a few weeks before pregnancy) vite "C", Vite "e" 3 times a week, kelp and salmon oil. I also added Raspberry leaves a few days before deliver date.
Your right Science diet is crap. Ask your Vet why Science diet used to have ethoxyquin in it and why they were promoting it back then. We trusted Vets all those years ago and how many of them really checked into the crap they were recommending as a so called balanced diet, how many of them have researched outside of their comfort zone? Ironically those who have are starting to write articles on how commercial dog food is killing our dogs. I am the first to admit that feeding kibble is easy and can be a real comfort zone, only because we have been brainwashed for many years into believing that we did not have the sence or, knowledge to feed our dogs. It is so sad at how stupid and trusting we can all be in profit making strangers to feed our dogs, when Mother nature has provided us with everything we need to feed them. Despite feeding raw for many years this group had helped me truly understand how to feed raw correctly and given me the true belief and confidence to give that "don't mess with me look, my dogs are fed exactly the way they are suppose to be".
Loraine Jesse
www.rothburgrottweilers.com

To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.comFrom: josephine.morningstar@gmail.comDate: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 07:33:03 -0500Subject: Re: [rawfeeding] Bella, yet again.

On 10/28/07, Renate <renate.tideswell@gmail.com> wrote:>> We are now about 2 weeks later, and Bella, my pregnant bitch (due around> 11> Nov) still is very resistant to eating the foods she loved when we started> on raw - no chicken, no pork,have you tried just ckn meat? no bone.yogurt / cheese would have the calcium crushed egg shell would also.she is thrilled to bits to eat beef kidney,other enzymes in here then in muscle meats.but that is about all for major joy-dance reactions. I can hand-feed her a> bit of lamb or beef (but very limited success in this),more energy to digest them i suspect.She'll also eat a bit of chicken liver.I found that chicken liver has some extra (to the ckn) T4 , thyroidhormone. not just for fighting infection, but for help in regulating thebody functions.And is> usually willing to eat beef heart.easier to digest beef muscle meat.. the fibers are not as firmly packed asin weight bearing muscle meat. so its easier to digest and she seems to notwant to spend much energy on digestion .. from what you have written.I gave my other dogs some pork shanks> and they brought the bones in and she stole one of those tonight and> chewed> on that quite happily for an hour. My vet is on my back to feed 'balanced> meals' - science diet is her prescription.thats full of antifreeze.. and not healthy forms of meats. and its alsograins.. when i challenged my own vet on the stuff.. he had not really readthe labels.. just took the salesman's hype about it.. as defense.. i lookedup all the ingredeints and handed him a paper on them.. with the websites tocheck me out.. he has stopped pushing the diet since then.. and is seriouslythinking of not carrying it anymore for HIM thats a big step.and Bella's poop is definitely> reflecting her diet. I'm feeding her 3 times a day now unless I just> cannot> make it home. Should I panic? There doesn't seem to be any problem with> her or growth. She does sleep alot, but who wouldn't in her state? I had> to be away all day today and came back to some very black, nasty wet> poopies,very black would mean there is stomach irritation? im GUESSING.. but BLACKanything is not from lack of bone..> Should I try to get her to eat some egg shells - -yogurt has calcium, and cheese does also.. yogurt will supply her withnatural iodine to help the thyroid function better and that regulates therest of the endocrine system in the body. cheese also will help firm up thestools.. provides calcium and is usually something that dogs seem to WANTbadly..i use white cheese rather then stuff that is colored.. some grocery storeshave cheese from the end of the deli product.. ours sells them at a muchreduced price and you can get it quite often.. at my stores.. check out thedeli if there is nothing offered .. and see if they would sell you the endsat a reduced rate.. cant hurt to try.-- Josephine MorningStar & Heather, Pyr, Mobility & MASDNative American in MassachusettsNever threaten anyone. It ruins the surprise.www.apachecreations.comBy Believing, One Sees.[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

_________________________________________________________________
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Messages in this topic (8)
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4b. Re: Bella, yet again.
Posted by: "Josephine Morningstar" josephine.morningstar@gmail.com jomorningstar
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:10 am ((PDT))

On 10/29/07, Loraine Jesse <rothburg@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Josephine,
> I know there are others on this group who will be able to go into detail
> and cover your entire email, during the last week of my gal's pregnancy

-----------------------------------------------

that was the other posters dog that was pregnant.. my gal was fixed at age 3
months and is nearly 10 yrs now.

I was the one that wrote about the science diet.. and how i challenged my
vet on it.. grin
--------------------------------
does the lines help separate the parts??
--------------------

> Your right Science diet is crap.

--
Josephine MorningStar & Heather, Pyr, Mobility & MASD
Native American in Massachusetts

Never threaten anyone. It ruins the surprise.
www.apachecreations.com

By Believing, One Sees.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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4c. Re: Bella, yet again.
Posted by: "Josephine Morningstar" josephine.morningstar@gmail.com jomorningstar
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:19 am ((PDT))

On 10/28/07, Renate wrote:
>
> We are now about 2 weeks later, and Bella, my pregnant bitch (due around
> 11
> Nov)

*Bella is slowing down her eating because her time to whelp is getting very
close! They normally eat once a day, or every other day, and some**** stop
all together right before the babies are due.*

--
Josephine MorningStar & Heather, Pyr, Mobility & MASD
Native American in Massachusetts

Never threaten anyone. It ruins the surprise.
www.apachecreations.com

By Believing, One Sees.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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4d. Re: Bella, yet again.
Posted by: "Renate" renate.tideswell@gmail.com tideswell_renate
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:20 am ((PDT))

Thanks Josephine. She won't eat chicken in any form. I've even gone the
route of trying to feed her bits while I'm cooking, and she takes it from me
then leaves it on the floor. IF I mix pieces of stuff she won't eat in with
kidney she makes a big show out of sniffing each piece loudly before she
eats only the kidney. Too funny. If she weren't pregnant, I'd just wait
til she ate, but not for now. I'll just try the canned fish, she always
hangs around when I make tuna sandwiches. I'm going shopping today and will
try to pick up some different things she hasn't eaten before. We were still
mainly on chicken with a little bit of pork when she was in the 3rd week of
pregnancy and went off her food - I just keep thinking she associates them
with morning sickness, or whatever it is that gives dogs such a hard time in
the 3rd week.

I just discovered one thing, she was scratching to get out of the laundry
room where I fed her this morning. As usual, she had picked out the bits of
kidney and heart ate one piece of beef and left all the pork riblets. Frodo
slipped in with me and went for the pork, so she growled and downed 2 or 3
pieces without thinking. Seems like something that could 'accidentally'
happen again.LOL

Thanks for the ideas. I'm not sure about the poo now. I just figured with
her eating all the dark coloured kidney and heart and no bone, her poo was
bound to be runny and dark. But it was actually black/greenish when I
picked it up, not dark red.
Renate

On 10/29/07, Josephine Morningstar <josephine.morningstar@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 10/28/07, Renate <renate.tideswell@gmail.com<renate.tideswell%40gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> > We are now about 2 weeks later, and Bella, my pregnant bitch (due around
> > 11
> > Nov) still is very resistant to eating the foods she loved when we
> started
> > on raw - no chicken, no pork,
>
> have you tried just ckn meat? no bone.
>
> yogurt / cheese would have the calcium crushed egg shell would also.
>
> she is thrilled to bits to eat beef kidney,
>
> other enzymes in here then in muscle meats.
>
> but that is about all for major joy-dance reactions. I can hand-feed her a
> > bit of lamb or beef (but very limited success in this),
>
> more energy to digest them i suspect.
>
> She'll also eat a bit of chicken liver.
>
> I found that chicken liver has some extra (to the ckn) T4 , thyroid
> hormone. not just for fighting infection, but for help in regulating the
> body functions.
>
> And is
> > usually willing to eat beef heart.
>
> easier to digest beef muscle meat.. the fibers are not as firmly packed as
> in weight bearing muscle meat. so its easier to digest and she seems to
> not
> want to spend much energy on digestion .. from what you have written.
>
> I gave my other dogs some pork shanks
> > and they brought the bones in and she stole one of those tonight and
> > chewed
> > on that quite happily for an hour. My vet is on my back to feed
> 'balanced
> > meals' - science diet is her prescription.
>
> thats full of antifreeze.. and not healthy forms of meats. and its also
> grains.. when i challenged my own vet on the stuff.. he had not really
> read
> the labels.. just took the salesman's hype about it.. as defense.. i
> looked
> up all the ingredeints and handed him a paper on them.. with the websites
> to
> check me out.. he has stopped pushing the diet since then.. and is
> seriously
> thinking of not carrying it anymore for HIM thats a big step.
>
> and Bella's poop is definitely
> > reflecting her diet. I'm feeding her 3 times a day now unless I just
> > cannot
> > make it home. Should I panic? There doesn't seem to be any problem with
> > her or growth. She does sleep alot, but who wouldn't in her state? I had
> > to be away all day today and came back to some very black, nasty wet
> > poopies,
>
> very black would mean there is stomach irritation? im GUESSING.. but BLACK
> anything is not from lack of bone..
>
> > Should I try to get her to eat some egg shells - -
>
> yogurt has calcium, and cheese does also.. yogurt will supply her with
> natural iodine to help the thyroid function better and that regulates the
> rest of the endocrine system in the body. cheese also will help firm up
> the
> stools.. provides calcium and is usually something that dogs seem to WANT
> badly..
>
> i use white cheese rather then stuff that is colored.. some grocery stores
> have cheese from the end of the deli product.. ours sells them at a much
> reduced price and you can get it quite often.. at my stores.. check out
> the
> deli if there is nothing offered .. and see if they would sell you the
> ends
> at a reduced rate.. cant hurt to try.
>
> --
> Josephine MorningStar & Heather, Pyr, Mobility & MASD
> Native American in Massachusetts
>
> Never threaten anyone. It ruins the surprise.
> www.apachecreations.com
>
> By Believing, One Sees.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

--
Renate
'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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4e. Re: Bella, yet again.
Posted by: "Josephine Morningstar" josephine.morningstar@gmail.com jomorningstar
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:32 am ((PDT))

im curious about the raspberry leaves part.. would you please explain?

On 10/29/07, Loraine J
>
>
> . I also added Raspberry leaves a few days before deliver date.

--
Josephine MorningStar & Heather, Pyr, Mobility & MASD
Native American in Massachusetts

Never threaten anyone. It ruins the surprise.
www.apachecreations.com

By Believing, One Sees.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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4f. Re: Bella, yet again.
Posted by: "Josephine Morningstar" josephine.morningstar@gmail.com jomorningstar
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:46 am ((PDT))

On 10/29/07, Renate <renate.tideswell@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> dark coloured kidney and heart and no bone,

Heart would be muscle meat.. and easy to digest.. if you ever really look at
the meat before feeding it (as i cut it down to portions to freeze and fit
into freezer easier.. tight quarters in there) the muscle fiber is really
long and not closely packed together.. not like it is with muscles on legs
or other parts that move bones.

also there is NOT the tendons and ligaments.. so another reason heart is
easier to digest.

it really sounds like she is not wanting to have to spend time on digesting
food. and that everything she is eating is going to the pups..

being this picky and not wanting to eat much.. probably also due to size /
number of pups she is carrying..

i remember with my human child.. he was huge..a nd there was not much room
in my stomach for food.. AND he also complained more often with what i ate..
so the puppies may be complaining on some foods also (complain = moving
around and shoving with feet)

greenish suggests stomach acid.. / bile.. and im NOT SURE on that part..

try yogurt or cottage cheese? maybe even lightly cooked raw egg white
(leaving the yoke mostly uncooked) would help.

--
Josephine MorningStar & Heather, Pyr, Mobility & MASD
Native American in Massachusetts

Never threaten anyone. It ruins the surprise.
www.apachecreations.com

By Believing, One Sees.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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5a. Re: runny stools
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:34 am ((PDT))

"doreenchui" <doreenchui@...> wrote:
>
> does pumpkin help to firm up stool? if so, cooked or raw?
*****
Yes, because that's what plant fiber does. Pumpkin is no different
than tomato pomace or beet pulp or bran or any of the other
proccessed plant fibers dogfood manufacturers put in kibble to
regulate stool consistency. These are not species appropriate food;
they fix nothing. They just muddy the waters.

The best way to firm up stool is to evaluate what you are feeding and
make necessary adjustments in the diet. Adding bone, removing fat,
feeding less, reducing the amount of new items you've recently fed,
and eliminating iffy propositions like dairy will address the actual
dietary issues. Pumpkin addresses NONE of them. Pumpkin is
convenient for the human and counterproductive for the dog.

Feeding pumpkin is like sweeping the dirt under the carpet.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: upset tummy
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:03 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "dutcher_katherine"
<katherinedutcher@...> wrote:
>
> but the chicken legs I
> bought are actually quite meaty. I got a cleaver to cut them
> up for the litle guys.

No need to cut them up. Even the smallest of dogs can handle a
whole chicken leg. You aren't doing them any favors by chopping
them up.

> I know the 2% of weight rule, thats with the bone
> right? I dont want to over feed.

Right now overfeeding is the last thing you should be concerned
about. It would be better to overfeed raw and cut back on the
kibble.

> I also got pork necks which I
> know lots of people feed but they look so tiny (they where chopped
> up in the supermarket package) Im worried about choking.

I wouldn't feed chopped up pork necks. See if you can get the
grocer to sell you some before it is chopped.

> Also when I go over 100% to raw should I feed some
> meals just ground meat because they are already getting so
> much bone
> or should everything (other then organ meats which I havent started
> yet) be on the bones---

I wouldn't feed ground very often but yes you can and should feed
some meat only meals. I feed pork and beef roasts and other meats
that I cut off the bone.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (18)
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6b. Re: upset tummy
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:06 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "dutcher_katherine"
<katherinedutcher@...> wrote:
> I just want to reitierant Im not trying to argue with you guys at
> all.

Hi Katherine,
Please sign your name at the end of your post, so i know for sure when
i say hi to Katherine, that's really your name. As far as the
argumentative part goes, don't worry about it, i have a dh too, and i
know they can really put a knot in your plans.

> Another question I bought the book the easy way to feed
> your dog raw food which will hopefully help,

If it helps convince your dh, yea, but as far as making raw feeding
easier i think you are going to find that all a book will do is make
stuff more confusing. Really, with all the writing that takes place
here if we were to compile it, we would have the "Gone with the Wind"
of raw feeding.

>but the chicken legs I
> bought are actually quite meaty. I got a cleaver to cut them up for
> the litle guys. I know the 2% of weight rule, thats with the bone
> right?

Yep, that's with the bone. There is no need to cut them up even
though your dogs are little. You are missing one of the most
important aspects of a raw diet-teeth cleaning- if you do the cutting
for them. Also, a meal that takes a little work on the dog's part is
a good physical and mental challenge.

>I dont want to over feed.
At 2% you probably won't. If you meant you cut the leg into pieces
because it was too much food for one meal, why don't you just eyeball
how much you want them to eat of the leg and then remove it when they
reach that point.

>I also got pork necks which I
> know lots of people feed but they look so tiny (they where chopped
> up in the supermarket package) I'm worried about choking.

Toss them. IMO, they are too small for any size dog.

> Also when I go over 100% to raw should I feed some
> meals just ground meat because they are already getting so much bone
> or should everything (other then organ meats which I haven't started
> yet) be on the bones---

Except for stuffing kongs, or hiding pills, or the fact its better
than no food, ground anything is pretty useless. That doesn't mean,
however, that every meal has to have a bone. A hunk of meat off of a
pork roast is an example of a meat only meal that would be a better
choice than ground. Later on in the diet, heart, tripe, tongue...fit
the bill also.

In another post you asked if some raw with kibble is better than all
kibble. This is just my opinion, i don't know what others will say,
but i feel that the closer you come to recreating a species
appropriate diet the better off your dogs will be and if in this
moment of your life that means both, i would feed both. So, while i
understand that you are waiting on dh to hop aboard, nothing beats an
all raw diet.

Also, if you don't start trimming your posts, you are going to force
the mods to morph into mean green deleting machines. When you reply
to a post, delete all the stuff the other person wrote. If you know
how to edit and keep some stuff and then delete that's great. If not,
just get rid of everything.

KathyM

Messages in this topic (18)
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7a. Brand new puppy
Posted by: "tamara" tsfairish@sbcglobal.net tamarafairish
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:11 am ((PDT))

Hi Everyone --

Our family just adopted an adorable 9 week old Golden Retriever puppy.
The breeder said she fed raw and indicated that she would be willing to
mentor me with raw feeding, but she hasn't followed up. I've got a
grinder, and I follow the recipe on

http://www.catnutrition.org/recipes.php for my cat, who won't crunch
bones on his own (switched from kibble at 14 years old). I've been
feeding puppy that recipe for now (we've only had her since Friday
night).

I understand the basics of prey model diet, but I do have a couple of
specific questions. First, at what point do I go ahead and give puppy
raw meaty bones, and which do I start with -- chicken wings or neck or
what? Also, how do you all package your pets meals for easy delivery?
I'm thinking I'd like to prepackage meat, organs, bones, (& what else?)
in baggies to freeze, so each baggie is a complete meal. No muss, no
fuss. Does that sound feasible? Other suggestions? With the cat, I
grind it all up and put in snack baggies and freeze, so feeding is not
a problem for the cat. With the new puppy, I'm still very much on a
learning curve.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions/resources you all can offer.
Tamara (Kansas)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: Brand new puppy
Posted by: "marclre" marclre@aol.com marclre
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:07 am ((PDT))

***Hi Tamara***

"at what point do I go ahead and give puppy raw meaty bones, and which do I start with --
chicken wings or neck or what"

***You can start right away but I would personally skip the wings/neck etc. Much too teeny
weeny & bony ...not enough meat...grrr ;) You could start with a half of a quartered
chicken...leave everything attached, let him eat as much as he wants and refridgerate any
leftovers for the next meal. Stick with this for 10 days or so and then add a new protein
source every few days. This way you'll be able to weed out any items his system doesn't
like so much. I feed whole lamb/goat/beef/chicken/turkey/tripe/duck/rabbit/fish/organ
meats etc etc. The more of these you can get grass fed the better. Wherever possible feed
whole chunks - not ground or portioned.***

"Also, how do you all package your pets meals for easy delivery?"

***personally can't be bothered with packaging, just pull from the freezer, thaw, hack up
and feed as needed ;) I'd probably only package out of consideration if I was away &
someone else was feeding for me over a longer period.***

"With the cat, I grind it all up..."

***don't grind, feed whole! Cats need basically the same as dogs, just less depending
upon size & individual cat. Grinding is a pity as it robs them of the teeth/jaw workout
which is essential to good oral health. Feeding whole, rather than parts means Ma Nature
has done the weighing/measuring and you don't need to! They need muscle meat/ fur/
feathers/skin/fat/bones/tendons/organs...the lot. I have 9 kitties right now and some eat
large amounts, some much less. I feed them all the same items I listed for dogs - in
addition: mice/rats/guinea pigs/quail/feeder chicks. These last are terrific as
appropriately sized species correct prey items. I order from this source:

http://rodentpro.com/

These links are excellent sources of info on species appropriate nutrition for cats

http://www.rawfedcats.org/

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawcat/

Marie-Claire***

Messages in this topic (3)
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7c. Re: Brand new puppy
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:32 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, tamara <tsfairish@...> wrote:
First, at what point do I go ahead and give puppy
> raw meaty bones, and which do I start with -- chicken wings or neck
>or what?

Hi Tamara,
Congrads on the new puppy and welcome to the list. I would start with
a chicken breast. You might have so slice it open--like slits- but
there is lots of meat and a very edible bone. Today would be a great
day to offer her one, no need to wait.

>Also, how do you all package your pets meals for easy delivery?

I think that prepackaging everything is making waaaay to much work for
yourself. Take what you want to feed out of the freezer, defrost, and
feed. The only thing i freeze in a "this is what i want to feed" size
piece in a baggy is liver. You don't have to feed a piece from every
part (meat, bone, organ) of the prey animal every day to feed a
balanced diet. KathyM

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Re: Whole turkeys
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:25 am ((PDT))

> How long can I keep hauling these things out to feed before they
> are even too ripe for the dogs.

I would imagine that the smell would reach your tolerance limit before
it bothered the dog's digestive system.

> Also, any hints on how to gauge when they've had enough for a meal?
> These are both dogs that would keep eating until they exploded so I
> can't count on them to let me know when they're full.

I agree with what others have said, your dogs might not stop themselves
after exactly one day's worth of food but that just means that one
day's worth of food doesn't fill them up. You might try just letting
them eat until they walk away, even if they end up looking like beach
balls when they walk away. The first few times I let my GSP mix eat
his fill he overstuffed himself and threw up a small amount of dinner
to get more comfortable. Now he'll eat two day's worth of food and no
more in one sitting.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (4)
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9a. Great "recipe" website
Posted by: "marlena_adema" marlena_adema@yahoo.ca marlena_adema
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:33 am ((PDT))

I've been reading many postings of people asking what sort of raw
meats and bones can be fed to our dogs. Including some from
vegetarians who don't know what certain meat cuts look like.

I too am new to raw and my pooch is still on chicken, soon we'll start
to expand her diet and I am asking the same questions. This website
has a great page with photos and feeding suggestions.

http://www.rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

It would be great if someone with knowledge and experience could take
a look at this website and confirm if it indeed is one to recommend.

Thanks kindly,
Marlena

Messages in this topic (3)
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9b. Re: Great "recipe" website
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:46 am ((PDT))

> http://www.rawfeddogs.net/Recipes
>
> It would be great if someone with knowledge and experience could take
> a look at this website and confirm if it indeed is one to recommend.

Marlena,

You have indeed found our own Kevin's site - well done! Yes, it is a good
one to recommend!

Casey

Messages in this topic (3)
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9c. Re: Great "recipe" website
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:46 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "marlena_adema" <marlena_adema@...>
wrote:
>
> http://www.rawfeddogs.net/Recipes
>
> It would be great if someone with knowledge and experience
> could take
> a look at this website and confirm if it indeed is one to recommend.

Yes it definately is.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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10.1. Question
Posted by: "sphynxlover2" AST42701@aol.com sphynxlover2
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:46 am ((PDT))

Hello everyone,
My 10 year old cat was diagnosed with pancreatitis last month and is
now in the middle of yet another attack. I had put him back on the
raw diet as soon as he was willing to eat on his own after the first
attack, and now it's been suggested to me that raw is NOT appropriate
for an animal with pancreatitis. This is the information I was given:

Not sure I'd be feeding a raw diet to a cat w/ pancreatitis. From
Zoran
"Pancreatitis in Cats: Diagnosis and Management of a Challenging
Disease"

"Although bacteria do not play a primary role in pancreatitis, the
pancreatic necrosis that occurs in many affected cats is an ideal
environment for bacterial colonization. Long-term fasting may also
lead to
reduced villous epithelial height within the small intestine, which
predisposes the cat to bacterial translocation. The true frequency of
bacterial sepsis in cats with severe pancreatitis is unknown, but
pancreatic
abscesses and pseudocysts are frequent complications of cats with
severe
pancreatitis.32 The organisms most likely to colonize the severely
diseased
pancreas are gram-negative and anaerobic bacteria from the GI tract
(e.g.,
Escherichia coli, Klebsiella spp., Enterobacteriaceae spp.,
Clostridium
spp., etc.).

Most everyone I've talked to regarding my cat and his diagnosis is
opposed to raw feeding anyway, so of course everyone wants to place
the blame for the first attack on switching him to the raw diet.
It's been suggested that if I had left him on kibble, he would not be
suffering with this disease. Now I am second guessing myself as to
whether or not I am making the right choices with what I'm feeding
him, and I feel completely helpless because no one has been able to
give me any definitive answers, not even the vets. I am looking for
any information that will help me to make an informed decision about
his diet. Any ideas or thoughts are greatly appreciated.
Thank you,
Rachelle in MS

Messages in this topic (169)
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11a. sick cat
Posted by: "Felicia Kost" saphiradane@yahoo.com saphiradane
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:32 am ((PDT))

I have a young cat that I have been raw feeding for about 8 months. I noticed the other day his fur was wet on his chest. Upon further investigation he was drooling. I also noticed he has some red spots in his mouth. They are not sores or blister, just red. I haven't seen anything like this before. This was about three days ago and the drooling is getting worse. He still wants to eat and does but hes cranky- more than normal and wants to be alone. Does anyone have any suggestions here? This cat has never seen a vet or vacc and Rarely goes outside. Should I be feeding him anything specific? Did something I feed cause these sores then the drooling? At a complete loss here any suggestions would be appreciated! Thanks Felicia
__________________________________________________
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Messages in this topic (2)
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11b. Re: sick cat
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:05 am ((PDT))

>>Did something I feed cause these sores then the drooling?

Unless you're feeding something weird (meaning something not animal-based)
or something to which he is very allergic, I seriously doubt this is food
related.

>>At a complete loss here any suggestions would be appreciated!

Vet visit as soon as you can. This sounds like a disease process that needs
to be investigated. You don't have to get into diet if you don't want to
when you go, but you should take this cat in for an exam.

Casey

Messages in this topic (2)
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12a. Re: starting feeding
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:10 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mbrown33333" <mbrown33333@...>
wrote:
>
> How long should i keep ruby on the mince before i start
> adding chicken
> legs ect and other raw meats to here meals and when do i start
> to add liver.
>
First off, you want to begin with one meat source until your dog
gets used to digesting meat. I suggest chicken, specifically chicken
backs only for the first week. Chicken meat is easily digested and
the bones are soft and pliable. The second week, I suggest chicken
backs in the morning and chicken quarters in the evening. The third
week I think it would be good to alternate chicken quarters with
turkey necks in the evening, sticking with chicken backs in the
morning. So one evening you would feed chicken quarters, the next
evening it would be turkey necks, then quarters again then necks,
etc. After a week of that, add another meat. I suggest pork. One
pork meal that week. The next week add one meal of fish. I use
canned salmon or mackerel but raw fish will work just fine. Feed
with bones and organs still attached if you can get that. I feed one
fish meal every week for the omega 3 fatty acids for good bright
shiny coats. Then next week, try something in place of the pork,
maybe lamb or beef. So, after a few weeks you will be feeding most
any meat available. After a month or so of feeding raw, you can add
organ meat. You don't feed a meal of organs, just add some organ
meat to one or 2 meals a week. Not a lot of organ meat as they are
rich and can cause runny stools. Now let's put it all together and
look at the diet I feed my dogs after the introduction period. Every
morning they get chicken backs. The evening meals are alternated
between chicken quarters and turkey necks. One of those evening
meals will be fish + organs + a raw egg (shell and all) + anything
else I may have left over in the fridge. One other night during the
week is for "something else". I may feed a pork roast or pork ribs
or pork shoulder. It may be beef, or lamb. Just something other than
chicken, turkey, or fish. That's it. I keep it as simple as
possible. The more you complicate it, the more complicated it
becomes.

Liver is the most important and should be at least half of the
organs fed. Any kind of liver will do. Chicken, beef, pork, lamb,
any of them. Heart is not an organ but a muscle and is good to feed
too.

How much do I feed my puppy?
This one is a little more complicated so pay attention here. Begin
feeding him 10% of his weight a day. Once 10% of his weight exceeds
2% to 3% of his IDEAL ADULT weight (not present weight), feed the 2%
to 3%. All the time you are doing this you are conscious of his
build and adjust the amount of food accordingly. The puppy will tell
you how much to feed him by his build.

How young can you begin feeding raw?
I personally have fed a 12 week old puppy raw. I know breeders who
will wean their puppies directly to raw. My suggestion is to begin
feeding raw the day you bring him home.

People worry an awful lot about balancing their dog's diet. It seems
to me that they worry more about their dog's diet than their own or
their family's diet. They are dogs. Their digestive systems and
their bodies are not that fragile. Feed meat, bones, and organs from
a variety of animals and the diet will balance itself over time.
Remember that term "over time". It's not necessary to balance each
meal. Balance over time. People getting into raw feeding tend to
worry a lot about ratios and percentages and weights. Forget all
that. Feed raw meat and bones and organs from a variety of animals
and things magically work themselves out. What is ideal? The average
prey animal has about 10% to 15% bone, about 10% organs, and the
rest muscle and fat and connective tissue. If you feed 5% bone or
25% bone, it won't matter. 5% organs or 20% organs doesn't make any
difference. Just stay somewhat in the ballpark and you will be ok.
One thing I look at is the dog's poop. You will become an expert
poop watcher. Ideally, the poop should be solid and turn white and
powdery in a day or 2. If the poop is runny, it generally means you
need to feed more bone. If it is white and powdery when it comes
out, feed less bone. The poop and my dog's build is all I watch and
I don't look at poop very often anymore.

Thats it. This is raw feeding in a nutshell. To learn more about raw
feeding: Read the books "Raw Meaty Bones Promote Health" and "Works
Wonders" by Dr. Tom Lonsdale You can find them
at "www.rawmeatybones.com" .

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeedng.htm

Feeding raw since October 2002

Messages in this topic (3)
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