[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12220

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Allergies in raw vs. cooked meats
From: carnesbill
1b. Re: Allergies in raw vs. cooked meats
From: Sandee Lee

2a. Re: Don't know if this is an allowable question????
From: Sandee Lee

3a. Re: Bella, yet again.
From: Sandee Lee

4a. Re: Brand new puppy
From: Tamara
4b. Re: Brand new puppy
From: Dawn Crosier
4c. Re: Brand new puppy
From: costrowski75

5a. Re: Eating carcass but not whole chicken?
From: Laurie Swanson
5b. Re: Eating carcass but not whole chicken?
From: jennifer_hell

6a. Re: Ok I know it has to be in here
From: carnesbill

7a. Eating less normal?
From: Virginia Snider
7b. Re: Eating less normal?
From: carnesbill

8a. Dogs Losing Weight Advice
From: Andrea Roher
8b. Re: Dogs Losing Weight Advice
From: Giselle

9a. Re: Salmonella question
From: alexanderdewey
9b. Re: Salmonella question
From: Sandee Lee
9c. Re: Salmonella question
From: alexanderdewey

10a. Re: Pork Neck
From: JIMMIE A FORBES
10b. Re: Pork Neck
From: costrowski75

11a. ADMIN/Re: Salmonella question
From: costrowski75

12a. ADMIN/Re: Don't know if this is an allowable question????
From: costrowski75

13a. Re: upset tummy
From: Giselle

14a. Re: {Raw Feeding} Took Max to the vet!
From: Giselle

15.1. Re: New to group
From: Giselle

16a. Re: Somebody kill me NOW
From: jennifer_hell

Messages
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1a. Re: Allergies in raw vs. cooked meats
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:57 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Kristin" <girlndocs@...> wrote:
>
> I wonder if anyone here knows of an informative article or study
> on the subject?

Unfortunately, I doubt there is one. I would love to see it if
there was. However, I have seen many many posts on this list from
people whose dog was allergic to a particular meat in kibble that
eats it with no problem now that they have switched to a raw diet.

The statement you made is correct. I just don't know how to prove
it.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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1b. Re: Allergies in raw vs. cooked meats
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:58 pm ((PDT))

Kristin,

I don't know about studies, but allergy tests for foods are very unreliable
and based on denatured proteins which have no correlation to raw proteins.
This has been discussed quite often on this list, but don't know if there
has been any evidence posted.

Carrie should know if she's around.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Kristin" <girlndocs@hotmail.com>
>
> I passed on the idea, on a dog discussion forum, that a dog allergic to
cooked meat may not be allergic to that meat in a raw form.
>
> I was asked if I have any studies or evidence to back that up and to my
shame (normally I'm of the "make the claim, have the evidence" school) I
don't.
>
> I wonder if anyone here knows of an informative article or study on the
subject?

Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. Re: Don't know if this is an allowable question????
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:32 pm ((PDT))

Dawn,

This is getting pretty far off topic for this list, but just continue
building up the immune system of these pups with appropriate diet, lots of
fun, fresh air, good water, eliminate stress, vaccines and toxins as much as
possible. Localized demodex is very common in puppies, it has to do with
the immune system being stressed. It is best to do what you can to build
up the immune system, lower stress and let the problem resolve itself

Treating with the recommended poisons is counterproductive and
harmful...don't do it!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "babyboyfila1" <babyboyfila1@yahoo.com>

I have lurked here for a while now and have learned so much from you.
My dogs have done well with the raw diet. I have two rescue pups that
are now 7 months and 6 months and 1 week. Two different mothers, same
father and one really horrible breeder...they are having a real problem
with demodex mange. I really don't want to do the dip routine and the
puppy tried to bite the kennel help. I have heard that you can give
injectable ivermectin 1/10 of a cc to 10 pounds of body weight for
this. But I would like to know if anyone out there has tried a natural
cure and had it work or where I might be directed.

Messages in this topic (7)
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3a. Re: Bella, yet again.
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:37 pm ((PDT))

Well obviously your vet does not understand what a "balanced" diet for a
carnivore consists of, does she???? :))

If Bella is not wanting bone, there's no way she'll touch a back...maybe
breast meat, but I thought she didn't want chicken at all? Whatever...feed
her what she wants at this point. She knows what she needs.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Renate" <renate.tideswell@gmail.com>

> Thank you Sandee. I picked up more of the stuff she is willing to eat
and
> some whole chickens (on sale for buy one, get one free LOL). I thought
I'd
> try her with the backs - no way. She always did have a stubborn streak.
I
> seem to have the vet's little voice in my head saying, make sure she gets
a
> balanced diet..... She actually asked what I use for training treats and
> when I said Rollover, she said 'At least part of her diet will be properly
> balanced' I guess she doesn't get the fact that I'm not going to be doing
> any agility training with Bella this far into a pregnancy, and training
> treats do not a diet make, at least not in this house. If they are an
> eighth of an inch square, they are lucky.

Messages in this topic (11)
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4a. Re: Brand new puppy
Posted by: "Tamara" tsfairish@sbcglobal.net tamarafairish
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:52 pm ((PDT))

Thank you so much, everyone!

I didn't get to the store today, so I used what I had on hand to feed
pup --
* ground bison (I know, I know, I'm not supposed to use ground, but
it's what I had on hand),
* chicken heart & liver,
* a chicken neck (half at one meal, and the other half at another meal)

She enjoyed the heck out of the chicken neck.

Chris, why do you say no chicken necks? Is it because so much bone
and so little meat? Are they ok when used the way I used it today?

Also, several of you suggested Cornish game hens. Where do you get
them? I looked at the rodent supply link someone was kind enough to
include, but they don't have game hens.

Thank you again, so much! Tamara

Messages in this topic (12)
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4b. Re: Brand new puppy
Posted by: "Dawn Crosier" dlcrosier@sbcglobal.net dlc110161
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:55 pm ((PDT))

Congratulations on the new baby!

I'd go ahead and feed the new Golden chunks of meat. You need to feed 2 to
3% of the expected body weight of the adult dog, so cut a whole chicken in
quarters and feed one quarter. You may have to help a little in that you may
need to cut strips into the meat so that it is *ribboned* and provides a
place for the pup to get a hold of the chicken.

The recommendation is to feed a week of one protein and then a week of
another, so feed the chicken until gone. Don't grind your meat except as
treats.

Dawn

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Messages in this topic (12)
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4c. Re: Brand new puppy
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:51 pm ((PDT))

"Tamara" <tsfairish@...> wrote:
>
> * ground bison (I know, I know, I'm not supposed to use ground, but
> it's what I had on hand),
> * chicken heart & liver,
> * a chicken neck (half at one meal, and the other half at another
meal)
>
> She enjoyed the heck out of the chicken neck.
>
> Chris, why do you say no chicken necks? Is it because so much bone
> and so little meat? Are they ok when used the way I used it
today?
*****
They are too little for most dogs and pups. I give them to my 10
pound cat along with the heart and gizzard and maybe a smidge of
liver; I seriously question the suitability of chicken necks in a
golden puppy's diet.

Chicken necks are too bony/not meaty enough and they are just the
right size for hasty swallowing. Even for a golden pup. Perhaps
especially for a golden pupster.l They are probably their most
benign when fed to the very small and to the very large.

Clearly you and your pup survived the experience. It would certainly
be my choice not to repeat it.

> Also, several of you suggested Cornish game hens.
*****
You can buy them at most supermarkets. Generally they are foolishly
pricey and for no good reason--they are, after all, just young
chickens. I buy them when they're on sale; I buy them from my local
Grocery Store Outlet for a tolerably high price. For pups and small
dogs and cats they really are nifty though. IMO their accomodating
size is compensation for their absurd expense.

I buy dressed quail at Asian markets, and some Latino markets and
from a meat wholsaler. They were quite useful for my BC pup, but she
was a small thing as a babe. Heck, she's a small thing now. Quail
weigh about 4 ounces each and as part of a four-meal puppy feeding
plan, they are nicely one meal.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
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5a. Re: Eating carcass but not whole chicken?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:52 pm ((PDT))

Hi Nicole,

He might have been confused that his food looked different today. Or
else it was bigger and more daunting? You can try leaving it down for
15 mins. and see if he gives it a try, and if he doesn't eat, just keep
feeding that piece for the next few meals til he gets hungry enough to
work a bit harder. You can also "ribbon" the meat (cut/slice some
strips into it so parts are a bit floppy. Or cut it in half (so you'll
have a chicken quarter then) to make it seem a bit more manageable to
him.

He does probably need a bit more meat, so keep working on it. Also,
how's he doing with the drumsticks? Those can be choking hazards for
big dogs. You'll probably not want to feed anything smaller than a
quarter chicken.

Laurie

Messages in this topic (4)
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5b. Re: Eating carcass but not whole chicken?
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:28 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Nicole" <reotec@...> wrote:
>
> He had a bit of a lick and then walked away. i tried to entice him -
> but to no avail. (took off the skin - exposed the meat)
>
Mine did that too at first- I poured a little boiling water on it,
then she ate it. She still prefers frames, but will eat the whole
chicken if I take it away after a few minutes. The third time I give
it to her she's like "Oh well, if there reeeeeally isn't anything else
to eat...". Lol!!

Jennifer with Mandy

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Re: Ok I know it has to be in here
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:53 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "deisel01" <deisel01@...> wrote:
>
> But the X amount os posts i guess I will ask anyways. I hae 7 dogs
the
> are on hard kibble but I want to change them to raw, I want to
start
> with only 2 of them and see how it goes. My question is where do I
> start? What do I feed for a biginning & how often?
>
How do I begin?
First off, you want to begin with one meat source until your dog
gets used to digesting meat. I suggest chicken, specifically chicken
backs only for the first week. Chicken meat is easily digested and
the bones are soft and pliable. The second week, I suggest chicken
backs in the morning and chicken quarters in the evening. The third
week I think it would be good to alternate chicken quarters with
turkey necks in the evening, sticking with chicken backs in the
morning. So one evening you would feed chicken quarters, the next
evening it would be turkey necks, then quarters again then necks,
etc. After a week of that, add another meat. I suggest pork. One
pork meal that week. The next week add one meal of fish. I use
canned salmon or mackerel but raw fish will work just fine. Feed
with bones and organs still attached if you can get that. I feed one
fish meal every week for the omega 3 fatty acids for good bright
shiny coats. Then next week, try something in place of the pork,
maybe lamb or beef. So, after a few weeks you will be feeding most
any meat available. After a month or so of feeding raw, you can add
organ meat. You don't feed a meal of organs, just add some organ
meat to one or 2 meals a week. Not a lot of organ meat as they are
rich and can cause runny stools. Now let's put it all together and
look at the diet I feed my dogs after the introduction period. Every
morning they get chicken backs. The evening meals are alternated
between chicken quarters and turkey necks. One of those evening
meals will be fish + organs + a raw egg (shell and all) + anything
else I may have left over in the fridge. One other night during the
week is for "something else". I may feed a pork roast or pork ribs
or pork shoulder. It may be beef, or lamb. Just something other than
chicken, turkey, or fish. That's it. I keep it as simple as
possible. The more you complicate it, the more complicated it
becomes.

What organs do I feed?
Liver is the most important and should be at least 50% of the organs
fed. Any kind of liver will do. Chicken, beef, pork, lamb, any of
them. A variety is best over time. Kidney is the next most
nutritious organ to feed. Also lung and pancreas. Heart is not an
organ but a muscle and is good to feed too. Gizzard is also a muscle.

How much do I feed my adult dog?
Each dog is different and that's impossible to say. However, begin
with 2% to 3% of his IDEAL adult weight each day. Watch him over
time and adjust as necessary. If he gets fat, feed less and vice
versa. Many new raw feeders have this great need to measure
everything. That need will quickly disappear and you will just know
how much to feed. You will also stay in touch with your dogs "build"
and adjust his food accordingly.

How much do I feed my puppy?
This one is a little more complicated so pay attention here. Begin
feeding him 10% of his weight a day. Once 10% of his weight exceeds
2% to 3% of his IDEAL ADULT weight (not present weight), feed the 2%
to 3%. All the time you are doing this you are conscious of his
build and adjust the amount of food accordingly. The puppy will tell
you how much to feed him by his build.

How young can I begin feeding raw?
I personally have fed a 12 week old puppy raw. I know breeders who
will wean their puppies directly to raw. My suggestion is to begin
feeding raw the day you bring him home.

What about fruits & veggies?
A lot of people feed their dogs veggies but if you look to nature,
you will see that your dog wouldn't eat veggies in any measurable
amounts. He might eat a few berries or maybe some grass but
certainly not zucchini, carrots, potatoes or any of the veggies that
many people feed. Also you must know that all the cells in all
vegetable matter is covered by a think layer of cellulose. This
cellulose must be crushed during the eating process in order for the
nutrients in the vegetables to be available for digestion. This is
called bioavailablity. The nutrients in vegetable matter is not
bioavailable to our dogs because they don't have the flat molar
teeth that plant eating animals do. Humans, for example, have flat
molars for crushing cellulose during chewing. Dogs molars are called
carnassal teeth and are not flat but work like scissors to rip and
tear meat and crush bones. So, by looking at your dog's teeth, you
can tell that veggies just are not appropriate food for them. The
vegetable material doesn't harm your dog, but it does them no good
either. Giving carrot treats occasionally doesn't hurt. Just make
sure that you don't feed enough veggies to interfere with the amount
of meat, bones, and organs your dog eats.

Tell me how to balance the diet.
People worry an awful lot about balancing their dog's diet. It seems
to me that they worry more about their dog's diet than their own or
their family's diet. They are dogs. Their digestive systems and
their bodies are not that fragile. Feed meat, bones, and organs from
a variety of animals and the diet will balance itself over time.
Remember that term "over time". It's not necessary to balance each
meal. Balance over time. People getting into raw feeding tend to
worry a lot about ratios and percentages and weights. Forget all
that. Feed raw meat and bones and organs from a variety of animals
and things magically work themselves out. What is ideal? The average
prey animal has about 10% to 15% bone, about 10% organs, and the
rest muscle and fat and connective tissue. If you feed 5% bone or
25% bone, it won't matter. 5% organs or 20% organs doesn't make any
difference. Just stay somewhat in the ballpark and you will be ok.
One thing I look at is the dog's poop. You will become an expert
poop watcher. Ideally, the poop should be solid and turn white and
powdery in a day or 2. If the poop is runny, it generally means you
need to feed more bone. If it is white and powdery when it comes
out, feed less bone. The poop and my dog's build is all I watch and
I don't look at poop very often anymore.

Do I feed supplements?
As long as you feed raw meaty bones and organs from a variety of
animals then you shouldn't need to supplement a healthy dog. Of
course if your dog has a health problem, you might want to add
supplements for that. One more possibility. Some add salmon oil
capsules for omega 3's. I don't because I feed fish at least once a
week.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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7a. Eating less normal?
Posted by: "Virginia Snider" vsnider@cogeco.ca rawbglass
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:55 pm ((PDT))

Hi,

"Louie da Pug", 12 mos old and 25 lbs., has been on raw for about 3
months now, got him through the organ cannon butt stage, and on all meats.

During the past week or so he has been not wanting to eat in the morning but
does fine at dinner. Is it normal for him to be eating less, (when he first
started he seemed ravenous), just walking away, and to only want to eat one
meal a day? Sometimes he will even not want a treat and just turns his head
or takes just a bite and leaves the rest. It just seems a bit weird to me
since I have never seen a dog not take food when offered.

Otherwise he seems to be fine, normal energy levels and is really
beefing out to "manly dog" chest/neck/leg muscles - this Pug looks more like
a small Bulldog in the body and much taller/larger that most. Fur feels
like velvet. Down to one tiny poop a day from 4.

TIA

Virginia

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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7b. Re: Eating less normal?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:57 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Virginia Snider" <vsnider@...>
wrote:
>
> Otherwise he seems to be fine, normal energy levels and is really
> beefing out to "manly dog" chest/neck/leg muscles - this Pug
> looks more like
> a small Bulldog in the body and much taller/larger that most.
> Fur feels
> like velvet. Down to one tiny poop a day from 4.

As long as the above is true, I woudln't be very concerned about
volume of food consumed.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. Dogs Losing Weight Advice
Posted by: "Andrea Roher" evenstar75@gmail.com evenstar75
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:56 pm ((PDT))

I have two Samoyeds. Both have been rawfed since last December or
thereabouts. We're also in very tight finances, so we've been feeding
them almost exclusively whole Menhaden fish (which we can get at an
amazingly low price) with occassional chicken and pork thrown in when
the budget allows. I generally let them eat as much fish as they
want, but they don't seem interested in doing the gorge/fast thing.

Here's the problem: both of my dogs are pretty significantly
underweight. They're under a lot of hair, so it's hard to tell, but
my girl is blowing coat right now, and she looks pretty awful. A
closer inspection of my boy reveals he also is quite a bit too thin
(and he's always been a food hound and a bit heavy before raw
feeding).

I completely believe that raw feeding is the only way to feed dogs,
but my mother (who breeds Samoyeds and gave me these dogs) freaked
when she saw how thin my girl was, and said if I can't get weight back
on these dogs, and pronto, she wants me to put them back on something
that we know they'll keep the weight on with (kibble). I figure they
probably need more fat and red meat, but that's difficult on my tight
budget. Is their weight loss likely just a lack of fat in their diet?
Is there anything else I should be looking at? Would adding pork fat
to the fish be helpful or cause more problems? We just this weekend
found a good price on bulk chicken "giblet" packages (the neck/organs
found stuffed inside grocery store chickens), so I'm adding that, but
is that likely to directly help this issue?

If any responses could be copied to me directly off list, I'd
appreciate it, as I read on digest.

--
Andrea L. Roher
Searching for my place in "Life, the Universe, and Everything" one day
at a time.
... maybe I've finally found it in NH! (www.FreeStateProject.org)
Visit my blog at evenstar75.blogspot.com.

Messages in this topic (2)
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8b. Re: Dogs Losing Weight Advice
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:21 am ((PDT))

Hi, Andrea!
More red meat, more fatty meat will put on the pounds. Pork,
tongue and beef heart with the fat cap left are good choices.
Check out The Lis List for ways to cheaply source meat, edible bones and
organs for your dogs.

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/139618*

*Post #139618*
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On 10/29/07, Andrea Roher <evenstar75@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I have two Samoyeds. Both have been rawfed since last December or
> thereabouts. We're also in very tight finances, so we've been feeding
> them almost exclusively whole Menhaden fish (which we can get at an
> amazingly low price) with occasional chicken and pork thrown in when
> the budget allows.
>

<snip>
>

If any responses could be copied to me directly off list, I'd
> appreciate it, as I read on digest.
>
> --
> Andrea L. Roher
> Searching for my place in "Life, the Universe, and Everything" one day
> at a time.
> ... maybe I've finally found it in NH! (www.FreeStateProject.org)
> Visit my blog at evenstar75.blogspot.com.
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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9a. Re: Salmonella question
Posted by: "alexanderdewey" alexanderdewey@yahoo.com alexanderdewey
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:58 pm ((PDT))

> On Oct 29, 2007, at 12:03 PM, KIMBERLY wrote:
>
> >
> > My question is:
> > Does this mean that we should not be giving rawfed dogs any
vaccines?
> >

Or in my case, Should I not raw feed my dog because she's already
been 'vaxed2thamax'?

Could that have weakened her immune system enough to make her
vulnerable to salmonella?

How could I find out if my dog in fact has a weakened immune system?

What about if someone feeds my dog something she shouldn't have - or
she eats something outside that doesn't digest as quickly as chicken
and the chicken takes longer to come out. In that case could the
salmonella multiply inside her or something, and make her sick?

What about if I miss a spot while cleaning the floor where she's
eaten raw chicken. Is there a chance if she licks that spot a day
later that enough salmonella to sicken her?

Does Salmonella multiply on a kitchen floor? lol.

But seriously, I'd love to know some Salmonella facts if anyone
knows.. I will locate the literature that supported the idea that
dogs CAN and DO get sick from Salmonella so I can reference the
source of my concern.

Alex

Messages in this topic (10)
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9b. Re: Salmonella question
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:40 pm ((PDT))

Alex,

Why are you looking for problems where there aren't any? Your dog is no
more likely to get sick from Salmonella when eating raw than he would from
kibble, treats, or just normal day to day activity regardless of diet.
Salmonella is *everywhere*. You cannot avoid it. The best possible way to
build up and support the immune system of any dog, compromised or not, is by
feeding a species appropriate diet. You will never avoid bacteria by
feeding something other than raw food.

Probably the majority of us have damaged dogs...the best way to undo that
damage is through appropriate diet. Stick around here, read through the
daily messages and archives where we have discussed Salmonella many times,
read the rawfeeding myths. Stick with facts and don't let fear dominate
your life. I have been on this list since 2003 where there are now close
to 10,000 members and haven't heard of one case of Salmonella attritubuted
to raw feed yet.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "alexanderdewey" <alexanderdewey@yahoo.com>

What about if someone feeds my dog something she shouldn't have - or
she eats something outside that doesn't digest as quickly as chicken
and the chicken takes longer to come out. In that case could the
salmonella multiply inside her or something, and make her sick?

What about if I miss a spot while cleaning the floor where she's
eaten raw chicken. Is there a chance if she licks that spot a day
later that enough salmonella to sicken her?

Does Salmonella multiply on a kitchen floor? lol.

Messages in this topic (10)
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9c. Re: Salmonella question
Posted by: "alexanderdewey" alexanderdewey@yahoo.com alexanderdewey
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:06 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Alex,
>
> Why are you looking for problems where there aren't any?

My dog doesn't appear at all sick, thank god, but I read that Dogs
get Salmonella, so I'm asking here about what increases the risk of
it.

>Your dog is no
> more likely to get sick from Salmonella when eating raw than he
would from
> kibble, treats, or just normal day to day activity regardless of
diet.

But how about under the circumstances I mentioned earlier? Does
anyone know?

> Salmonella is *everywhere*. You cannot avoid it. The best
possible way to
> build up and support the immune system of any dog, compromised or
not, is by
> feeding a species appropriate diet. You will never avoid bacteria
by
> feeding something other than raw food.

I agree.

> Probably the majority of us have damaged dogs...the best way to
undo that
> damage is through appropriate diet. Stick around here, read
through the
> daily messages and archives where we have discussed Salmonella
many times,
> read the rawfeeding myths. Stick with facts and don't let fear
dominate
> your life. I have been on this list since 2003 where there are
now close
> to 10,000 members and haven't heard of one case of Salmonella
attritubuted
> to raw feed yet.

Thank you. It is the knowledge shared by people like you on this
list that made it possible for us to make the switch to raw with
such confidence a month ago. The archives on salmonella that I've
read didn't address the specific questions I have though.

One more thing that has been lingering - and has gotten me thinking
more about the potential risk of bacterias - When I go away next
week and leave my dog in the care of someone else, could she be
seriously harmed if fed 'doom nuggets' for 4 days?

In other words, she's been eating raw chicken (and some pork ribs)
for a month - so what risks could be involved if she's now fed
k**ble for 4 days??

Thanks,

Alex

Messages in this topic (10)
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10a. Re: Pork Neck
Posted by: "JIMMIE A FORBES" jforbes05@sbcglobal.net rocketblasther
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:15 pm ((PDT))

Hello All,

The market I go to have really large pork necks, 12 inches at the least. They appear to be very meaty. Is it ever okay to feed as a stand alone meal or should I always add more meat to it? I never fed it before because I always here that it's too bony.

Thanks,
Jim & Sara

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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10b. Re: Pork Neck
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:55 pm ((PDT))

JIMMIE A FORBES <jforbes05@...> wrote:
>The market I go to have really large pork necks, 12 inches at the
least. They appear to be very meaty.
*****
Almost certainly they are not. If you can easily see how the bone lays
out, there's not enough meat on it.

If you want to feed these necks, add plenty of meat to the meal, since
12 inches of mostly bony bone can produce a big old helping of
difficult stools.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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11a. ADMIN/Re: Salmonella question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:18 pm ((PDT))

Please take all vaccine discussions to RawChat, DogHealth, Truth About
Vaccines or Justsayno. Further posts will be rerouted.
Chris O
Mod Team

Messages in this topic (10)
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12a. ADMIN/Re: Don't know if this is an allowable question????
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:31 pm ((PDT))

It's not an allowable question but you managed to get some mileage out
of it. Time for the topic to move to RawChat or DogHealth, or
private. It is not a topic centrally related to rawfeeding.
Thank you.
Chris O
Mod Team

Messages in this topic (7)
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13a. Re: upset tummy
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:34 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Katherine!
An agreement worked out between you and your husband, to
give the raw whole prey model diet a REAL try, for Oh say, three months,
would be more fair than mixing kibble and raw - to the dogs, and to you.
This type of negotiation has worked with couples before, with very good
results. Once the kibble is out of the house, and the 'other' partner is
committed to a true trial, the dogs adapt well, changes in health,
appearance and even behavior become more apparent, the shopping partner of
the couple has a chance to gain experience in shopping and sourcing cheaper
raw food and the 'other' partner becomes more invested in feeding raw. And
usually, changing back to Doom Nuggets *tm (Carrie!) is never mentioned, and
is a non issue.

The best argument? Kibble has already had a more than fair trial. ; )

Vets don't have any experience in feeding raw, they don't realize that the
diseases and abnormalities they see daily are complicated by poor nutrition.
They don't get much nutritional education in school, and what they do get is
bought and paid for, and almost always 'taught' by the pet food corps. These
corps not only spend millions of $$ on advertising, but they endow chairs at
universities, offer free or discounted pet food for student's studies and
inducements to vets if they sell their pet food. The vets who buck this
system are few and far between, and often have their own 'special' twist on
raw feeding, some sort of supplement or prepackaged raw food to reel in the
$$ for themselves. Don't depend on the pet food corps, vets, or anyone who
stands to make money from BRANDED foods, kibbled, canned, cooked, ground,
raw or otherwise, to talk truth or know what can be accomplished by feeding
real raw whole prey.

The Merck Veterinary Manual: "The carbohydrates added to pet foods are
mainly in the form of polysaccharides (starch and cellulose),
disaccharides (sucrose and lactose), and monosaccharides (glucose and
fructose). Carbohydrates are a less expensive source of energy than
fat or protein. In dogs, there appears to be **no dietary requirement
for carbohydrate**."

The Lis List, is a great compilation of ways to source raw food. You can
even use your local craigslist or FreeCycle to find a cheap or free freezer
to store your scores in;

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/139618*

*Post #139618*

Some links to print out to read to your husband to help win your case;

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/143301

message # 143301

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/144402

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/144075

and websites;
<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/144075>

http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

http://www.rawlearning.com/supplementmyths.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

http://rawfeddogs.net/FAQlist
Easy 'how to' start all raw;

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374 *

*post # 141374*

whole prey websites;
**

http://www.rodentpro.com/products.asp

http://www.prey4pets.com/servlet/StoreFront

http://www.hare-today.com/index.php?cPath=23

www.taylorpondfarm*s*.com/ <http://www.taylorpondfarms.com/>
TC and let us know how you progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On 10/29/07, dutcher_katherine <katherinedutcher@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> +++Mod note. please sign and trim your emails. This one trimmed for you
> by a mod. ta. ++++++++++++
>
> I see all of your points and actually probably would go cold turkey
> if it was totally up to me. However, I share my dogs with my
> husband and he is not at all keen on raw feeding.
>

<snip>
>

It also doesn't help that every vet we have been
> to, and recently I've tried out 4, is very leery about raw.
>

<snip>
>

I'm hoping to get more information on this group to make the transition to
> raw easier and to convince my husband that we can make it work for our dogs
> without
> making them sick and going broke buying raw meat for four dogs.
> _
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (20)
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14a. Re: {Raw Feeding} Took Max to the vet!
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:42 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Brandi!
Save yourself and Max some aggravation and insist your vet
send the blood to Dr Jean Dodds for analysis and diagnosis to definitively
rule hypothyroidism in or out - you'll be very glad you did. She will even
directly send you her findings, if you want.
http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/diagnostic_testing.htm

TC
Giselle

On 10/29/07, Casey Post <mikken@neo.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
> > But he does not think that he's
> > got hypothyroid because Max isn't fat.
>
> Typical. Just so you know, dogs don't have to be fat to be hypothyroid.
> Too many vets think that they do, so you may have to be more proactive on
> this one.
>

<snip> <http://www.kateconnick.com/library/cushingsdisease.html>
>
> Casey
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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15.1. Re: New to group
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:42 am ((PDT))

Hi, Heidi!
Nope! Cold turkey is the way to go!

Have you read the files, recommended websites and archived messages from
THIS list?

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On 10/29/07, Heidi <dolphin_6876@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone, my name is Heidi and I live in Hannibal, Mo w/ my fiance,
> 3 kids, 4(soon to be 5) dogs, 2 cats, 5 rats, goose, and rabbit. I am
> seriously considering to switching from cooked food and kibble to 100%
> raw for the dogs and cats. I have read a lot on switching and it seems
> to be to just do it. Will this cause any digestive problems instead of
> switching over slowly?
> Thanks,
> Heidi
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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16a. Re: Somebody kill me NOW
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:28 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Shelly <StuartLittle@...> wrote:
>
If you really need her to finish up the hearts that you have, try
> mixing it with green tripe, my dogs will eat anything mixed with tripe.
>
Thank you! We've not yet advanced to tripe, but I tricked her using
very very finely grated parmesan that couldn't be licked of, and she
ate it all. Hehehe!

Jennifer

Messages in this topic (9)
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