[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11919

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: vet says Yeay to rawfeeding
From: Giselle

2a. Re: Nature's Variety Raw Food Diets
From: Giselle

3a. Garlic and Dogs
From: paperfibe
3b. Re: Garlic and Dogs
From: costrowski75
3c. Re: Garlic and Dogs
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

4a. first feed
From: Linda Gower
4b. Re: first feed
From: John and Jeni Blackmon
4c. Re: first feed
From: Laurie Swanson

5a. pork neck bones
From: lhmcmaken
5b. Re: pork neck bones
From: Giselle
5c. Re: pork neck bones
From: costrowski75
5d. Re: pork neck bones
From: John and Jeni Blackmon
5e. Re: pork neck bones
From: Morledzep@aol.com

6a. Re: feeding beef
From: linoleum5017

7a. Re: Just started feeding raw
From: linoleum5017

8a. Re: Finding expired meats
From: woofwoofgrrl
8b. Re: Finding expired meats
From: Morledzep@aol.com
8c. Re: Finding expired meats
From: costrowski75

9. knackery drop off
From: bluegracepwd

10a. Re: not eating
From: linoleum5017

11a. Re: Swift Tribe Questions (lengthy)
From: costrowski75

12a. Re: freeze first?
From: costrowski75

13a. Re: Ok, update from new Raw feeder
From: costrowski75

14a. Re: Now what do I do????
From: costrowski75

15. raw & puppy development
From: Stevie Mathre

Messages
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1a. Re: vet says Yeay to rawfeeding
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:41 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Ivette!
I think that RMB means different things to different people
now.

Those of us who have come to prey model raw by way of home cooked,
then through B*RF or other 'raw feeding' plans before prey model raw
have a different take on the term, having come through the history and
know the real meaning, as it were.

I always try to clarify the meaning, especially if I don't know the
feeding history of the newbie requesting information.

I try to never use the term, as it has negative connotations for some
peeps, and is a very unclear term for others.

I just say whole animals or animal parts, bones included or boneless. : )

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> <<...But, when used in the B*RF way of feeding it usually means mostly
> inedible bones...>>
>
> Giselle, I was the one that mentioned RMB in my original post of
"vet says Yeay to rawfeeding" but I didn't mean the type of bones the
B*RFers use. I actually meant raw meaty bones, meat and bones
together. Sorry for the confusiong. I just meant meat with the bone IN.
>
>
> Ivette Casiano
> "Live for today, plan for tomorrow"
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
> Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (9)
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2a. Re: Nature's Variety Raw Food Diets
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:52 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Kimber!
This list supports a whole raw prey model diet.
You aren't likely to get much input or support for feeding premade
commercial ground stuff.

Why is feeding raw "too gross" to you?
The cat or dog does all the 'preparing', you just need to thaw and serve.

There is a couple lists for feeding cats raw - try searching for
rawcat, can't remember the raw fed cat chat list name - you can use
the Yahoo Groups Search feature to find them.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> > Hi all, I am new to the raw food idea for cats/dogs. I have been going
> > towards more natural products and care for me and my horses.
> >
> > Has anyone tried Nature's Variety Raw Food Diets? How many medallions
> > would a cat eat? I have no interest in preparing raw food, too gross
> > for me so this looked like a good alternative.
> >
> > -Kimber T

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Garlic and Dogs
Posted by: "paperfibe" CollageStudio@bendbroadband.com paperfibe
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:26 pm ((PDT))

Hi, thought I would post as I read on one of the other posts to use
garlic to "favor".
Garlic has a toxic ingredient thiosulphate for dogs and I would not
recommend using garlic in any amounts. It can cause anything from
minor upset tummy, diarrhea and vomiting.

Love reading all the posts and I promise to post more soon..I have not
had much time on the computer.!

Doc and Wyatt are doing great on Raw Heres their blog about the switch
over;
http://docwyattraw.blogspot.com/

And their adventures in rescue funding:
http://0krunforcharity.blogspot.com/

Deb and the Boys

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Garlic and Dogs
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:53 pm ((PDT))

"paperfibe" <CollageStudio@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, thought I would post as I read on one of the other posts to use
> garlic to "favor".
> Garlic has a toxic ingredient thiosulphate for dogs and I would not
> recommend using garlic in any amounts. It can cause anything from
> minor upset tummy, diarrhea and vomiting.
*****
Thanks for the warning, but there's quite a body of evidence that
indicates raw garlic fed moderately may offer some health benefits
and may as well be an effective flea deterrent.

The operant word of course is moderate. Yassy suggested I think half
a clove every other day; I have seen (and follow) somewhat more
assertive schedules but it's clear in all the variations that
moderation is key.

I'm certain I've read that the skin is potentially dangerous, not the
meat.

Clearly, if you are not comfortable with garlic on the menu, don't
feed it.
Chris o

Messages in this topic (3)
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3c. Re: Garlic and Dogs
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:14 pm ((PDT))

I have used garlic for years as a flavor additive and for things like natural worming. Works wonders here in our house and we have never had any adverse reactions or side affects, and we will keep using it, for the dogs and for us. I have never heard it was harmful. Have heard that grapes and tomatos were, but never garlic. I have to admit, my guys get away with a few tomatos from the garden, and do some counter surfing and steal some grapes but never get enough to worry about. Or maybe they just don't eat enough to do any damage. But all my dogs have garlic, and will continue too. Thanks for the info, where did you get it? Worth a little more research.
It's in all my holistic books for dogs and cats too.
Jeni

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4a. first feed
Posted by: "Linda Gower" pudeltime@bellsouth.net pudeltime
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:28 pm ((PDT))

Well, I jumped in with both feet this evening. They had chicken thighs on sale at Kroger today, so picked up a pack to test drive. Those hens had some thunder thighs!!!

Chase - my 15#er got one thigh and I gave Lance - my 65#er two of the biggest thighs. Chase picked at it for about five seconds and the next thing I know he's down on the ground chomping away. Lance on the other hand became delicate and ate the bone out of one thigh and acted like the rest had been sprinkled with poison! Goofy dog - he's been fed raw in the past, don't know why he's acting delicate now. So, back in the fridge it went - he'll be hungrier in the morning.

Whole chickens need to go on sale before I try them.............thighs for now. I have to unearth my scale and see how much those buggers weigh. I'd say they were approaching a 1/2 pound each. Wish I'd picked up more now.

I was very amused at watching Chase chowing down - who says poodles are delicate!

Linda Gower - Mid-TN

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4b. Re: first feed
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:21 pm ((PDT))

congrats and good going, all that chicken, boy your dogs are loving it!
Keep it up. It's funny and it cracks me up, the whole chicken is more expensive than the parts, go figure?! I get mine at the base, and sometimes at costco, they are only .99 a pound there, whole. Happy Hunting!
Jeni

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4c. Re: first feed
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:22 pm ((PDT))

Yay, Linda! I like hearing these stories. It is fun, isn't it?

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Linda Gower" <pudeltime@...> wrote:

> I was very amused at watching Chase chowing down - who says poodles
are delicate!

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5a. pork neck bones
Posted by: "lhmcmaken" lhmcmaken@yahoo.com lhmcmaken
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:28 pm ((PDT))

I saw these in the store and got a small box. they look like they
have been cut. they are from walmart. how should i feed these to my
great danes? thanks.
take care
lynda maude and franklin

Messages in this topic (18)
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5b. Re: pork neck bones
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:40 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Lynda!
I wouldn't recommend that you feed cut neck bones to a giant breed of
dog. Why not ask someone 'behind the counter' at the supermarket, and
see if you can get them whole, before they are cut up?
They are pretty bony, but soft and completely edible. I add meat, like
beef, to them when I feed them to my Newfy.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I saw these in the store and got a small box. they look like they
> have been cut. They are from Walmart. How should I feed these to my
> Great Danes? Thanks.
> take care
> Lynda, Maude and Franklin
>

Messages in this topic (18)
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5c. Re: pork neck bones
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:00 pm ((PDT))

"lhmcmaken" <lhmcmaken@...> wrote:
>
> I saw these in the store and got a small box. they look like they
> have been cut. they are from walmart. how should i feed these to my
> great danes?
*****
You don't.
They are way too small, notably so if you got a small box of them.
Chalk them up to learning and don't buy more.

If you want to feed pork neck bones, buy whole ones (well, they're sort
of halved, but big rather than small) from a meat wholesaler or from a
meat department that acutally cuts meat, and add a heap o' meat to the
meal, then let your Danes work on one of those (each).

The cut bones you bought are appropriate for barbecuing or roasting as
people treats, they are too bony and too small for dogs, especially big
dogs.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (18)
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5d. Re: pork neck bones
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:21 pm ((PDT))

I have two great danes, and Zena my girl, I never worry about her abilities to eat, chew, or narl up anything, she can go at it like there is no tomorrow, and sometimes you think that she doesn't think there is! Now, Zeus, my boy, a little more Genteeel. He waits for her to do all the work. Store cut bones, I don't usually worry about. Everyone says you should, but with these guys mouths, they are so big, and if there is a problem, Zena upchucks it, and no problem. She doesn't usually cut herself on anything sharp, but they do look sharp, and some feel pretty sharp. Some of the emu bones I have gotten are pretty sharp looking too. But she tackles those with gusto and keeps going. I have even seen her spinter rib bones after they have dried up and she is ok with those too, eats them then even when they are dried up. So, with my two danes, nothing seems to be off limits. But if you are worried, you can take a big file from the garage and file the
bone down some, or take the bone out, and feed it as a meat meal. Or do like the other person said and see if the butcher will get you them whole. But I think Walmart gets their meat already prepackaged. I already asked one guy here, and that's what he told me. Might be different where you are at. My guys really like the shoulders too, I cut off all the meat, and save the bones, then they each get a really big bone:) Happy all over around here. The shoulder is about $1.20 a pound at the base here. Sometimes less if there is a sale. For me and mine, they seem to be able to handle just about whatever I give them. It's up to you and what you think they can tackle, you know your dogs, see what they can do, just stick around and watch. Be a good mommy and see how it goes. You'll know.
Jeni

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5e. Re: pork neck bones
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:16 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/16/2007 9:01:12 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Chriso75@AOL.COM writes:

The cut bones you bought are appropriate for barbecuing or roasting as
people treats, they are too bony and too small for dogs, especially big
dogs.

****those cut pork neck bones are great for making soup stock..

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

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6a. Re: feeding beef
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:40 pm ((PDT))

Good luck! Around the PA area, I cannotfind any beef dog-worthy under
$3/lb. My dog has never tasted it. Luckily, also in PA, we have many
deer hunters, so I get venison for free. I hate to give that to the
dog, though, as it is so good, and chemical/hormone free. We share!

Lynne

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Becky Brooks (Marsh)"
<kidcreations1@...> wrote:
>
> We have been feeding our dogs raw for about 2 months and would like
to
> introduce beef. > Becky
>

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7a. Re: Just started feeding raw
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:40 pm ((PDT))

I second what Catherine said. In addition, I would add that each day,
you want to feed 2-3% of your dog's ideal weight. So if your dog
weighed 100 lbs., you'd want to feed him 2 - 3 lbs. per day. A 60 lb.
boxer would require around 1.2 lbs., depending upon his metabolism.

Also, remember that raw eggs are very beneficial. Liver is
recommended on this list as 5% (of the 10% organ goal,) because it its
that necessary. Go for kidneys, and in whole-prey, your dog can get
brains, eyes, innards of all gross variety. Heart, tongue and
gizzards are considered meat, not organ. Even so, heart is rich, and
might cause diarrhea, so go easy at first.

One of the first difficulties new rawfeeders encounter is the
temptation to feed a lot of bone. That leads to 'rock-poop,' as I
think Chris O. dubs it. Meat so dense that it hides the bone within
is more desirable than visible bone-in meat. Necks, backs, wings,
even chicken legs are extremely bony, and need some meaty meat to
counteract the imbalance.

And the dogs bark a huge hoo-rah! Way to go!

Lynne

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Morledzep@... wrote:
>
>> Kathleen,
>
> you're gonna hear this from LOTS of folks.. get ready for the
barrage..
>
> cancel your order for the chicken backs and necks.. these are not
suitable
> parts for any dog, too much bone and the necks are the perfect shape
to cause
> choking.
>
> > Catherine R.
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Re: Finding expired meats
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:40 pm ((PDT))

So I wonder where exactly it 'goes' when they get rid of it?
I'd hope soup kitchen or food pantry or something.... or should we all
start garbage picking behind the grocery store?!
Christine

Shireen Schwartz wrote:
>
>
> I have been to my local stores in Kennesaw, GA Publix, Kroger, Costco,
> Walmart, even butcher. None are willing to sell expired meats because of
> liabilty is what I was told. Walmart will discout their meat the day b4
> it expires by 30%. Can get some decent deals that way. You just have to
> hit it earlier in the day when the meat guy goes thru the available
> stock and reprices it. I was even told that they don't even allow their
> store employees to take the meat home, they guy told me he would still
> use it even if it was expired it's not 'bad' yet. All that good meat to
> the dump only if we could get our hands it!!!!
> Shireen

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8b. Re: Finding expired meats
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:44 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/16/2007 6:40:48 PM Pacific Standard Time,
cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com writes:

So I wonder where exactly it 'goes' when they get rid of it?
I'd hope soup kitchen or food pantry or something.... or should we all
start garbage picking behind the grocery store?!

Christine,

the expired meats are sold to a renderer.. some of it even eventually ends up
in poison pellets, but that would only be the stuff that is leftover after
everything else useful is extracted..

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

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8c. Re: Finding expired meats
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:40 pm ((PDT))

Nathalie Poulin <poulin_nathalie@...> wrote:
>
> Yah. I used to work at Loblaws and their policy is to
> throw out bread/meat etc (if it goes past the sale
> date), they won't give anything away for free, not
> even to employees.
*****
Boy, even bread? That is cruel and unusual punishment. Here in
Sacatomatoes California, the Senior Gleaners project is really active
and efficient; bread and veggies are regularly collected for soup
kitchens and the like, not meat though, alas.
Chris o

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9. knackery drop off
Posted by: "bluegracepwd" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:24 pm ((PDT))

yesterday the knackery dropped off 6 sheep (dressed), 30kg of sheep
heart and some other bones. Total price $105. The freezers are now
well and truly full, and yet again, I'm proving handy with an axe!

The dogs will be eating well for a few weeks!

cheers

Jane
www.bluegrace.com
Australia

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10a. Re: not eating
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:28 pm ((PDT))

Schott,

I see you posted a few weeks ago, also naming veggies as the food your
hund prefers. This list promotes prey-model rawfeeding, as the
complete nutrition paradigm for dogs. That means, despite what your
dog's finicky preferences are, those on this list believe what is best
for any carnivore canine is all that comes within a meaty prey.

It is also understood on this list that some dogs have become confused
about what they ought to eat, and that ki**le can, like junk food,
taste and smell more appealing than the real thing. A wise pet owner,
it seems, would not buy into the misguided desires of a 'wayward' dog,
instead suggesting a prey model diet, as it is much, much better for
them.

Lynne

-- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "schottscrazyzoo"
<schottscrazyzoo@...> wrote:
>
> I'm new to this and I have 7 dogs 1 of them is having no part of the
> raw meat or bones he'll eat any veggie I put in front of him but no
> meat what do I do ?? Schott
>

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11a. Re: Swift Tribe Questions (lengthy)
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:05 pm ((PDT))

"Ash" <want4rain@...> wrote:
>
> also, i was wondering about sea food?? shrimp or lobster?? if the cats
> will eat that, whats the benefit? i know oyster falls under the organ
> meat category. what abotu the rest of it?
*****
It's all possible, not so terribly appropriate but certainly doable if
the cat is agreeable. I would not waste lobster money on cats, but I
have fed shrimp bits when cleaning them. Oysters don't fall under the
organ meat catagory--oysters may be slimy and slurpy but they're not
exclusively organ meat.

What about the rest of it what? Fish? Not required; can be fed in
moderation if the cat buys into the plan. My cat occasionally eats a
whole sardine and she quite likes salmon and white fish. Clams? These
definitely strike me as inappropriate but if you want to try, try.
Same for squid and octopus and other denizens of the deep.
Chris O

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12a. Re: freeze first?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:13 pm ((PDT))

"ekayke" <ekayke@...> wrote:
>is
> it always necessary to freeze meet before feeding to
*****
Nope. Most commercial meat has been frozen for shipment; even meat
that's fresh to the market can be fed as is if its source is
reputable. Given what dogs are more than happy to get into on their
own, I can't see commercial meat being dangerous to them.

if i buy a
> whole, unfrozen chicken from the market, would i need to freeze it
> before feeding?
*****
No, not needed. I frequently buy fresh chickens in the AM and feed
them in the PM.

if not,is it only "wild" meats that need to be frozen
> first?
*****
Not everyone freezes wild game before they feed it. I'd guess most
people would freeze wild game if the particulars were not known, or
perhaps give it some thought. I do not always freeze venison, but I
do freeze bunnies and if I had the option of feeding wild pig, I
would freeze that. At the very least, freezing kills the fleas.
Chris O

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13a. Re: Ok, update from new Raw feeder
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:29 pm ((PDT))

"charlesmdodson" <charlesmdodson@...> wrote:
> I was cutting Sherman's food intake in three portions spread out
> over the day but I understand I dont need to do this at seven months
> of age? He is 7 months and 70 lbs (Doberman).
*****
Right. He's good for two squares a day, no problem. And a 70lb pup
does not need his food cut up. Start thinking big food and by the time
he's 10 months or so you can move him to one meal a day and he'll be
able to do justice to the bigger food you've had a chance to
investigate.

I have been feeding
> him about 3 lbs of meat per day total. More or less?
*****
Unless he's a high roller, this stikes me as quite a lot of food day
after day. I'd be thinking two pounds a day, myself.

OTOH, if he eats well, digests well, plays and sleeps hard, has a great
coat and healthy skin, has a fine robust view ohis world and is as lean
as a long distance runner, then he's likely doing well on three pounds
a day. I recommend you watch him though, and if/when he starts to
looking thick, cut back.

I understand tripe is a popular favorite among dogs. Any
> advice on how much to feed? I'm sure its considered organ since its
> a stomach right?
*****
Alas, store bought tripe is not the tripe we recommend. What you
bought has been bleached and effectively stripped of its natural
value. The stuff some of us tend to go on about is green tripe, which
is minimally processed, stinky as all get out and utterly unwelcome on
a USDA approved supermarket. Green tripe can be bought online from
several sources and can be gotten direct if you have connections.

Raw green tripe can be fed as a stand alone meal and it can be fed with
meat and/or organs pretty much however you want. My dogs have never
responded poorly to it but some dogs so. When you get your hands on
raw green tripe, feed it in small amounts til you see how your dog
reacts.

What you purchased can be offered as a fun toy; if he's still teething
(not likely I suppose) the white stuff might help him work through the
discomfort.
Chris O

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14a. Re: Now what do I do????
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:40 pm ((PDT))

Loretta Luja <luja@...> wrote:
> Funny that since I introduced raw meat to them, they
> won't touch veggies or fruit. Maybe I can mix something
> in a little ground beef.
*****
Heavens, don't bother.

I have heard of pumkin being good
> to use to get things through, but haven't tried it yet
*****
Pumpkin is baloney. Pumpkin is artifice, fooling around, interfering
with natural responses to natural situations. If you want your dogs
to produce looser stools, feed looser food. Feed more fat, feed some
squidgy organs, feed red meat. Or feed some fish body oil. There
are many ways to lube the tubes that do not require cooked vegetation.

Chcken is not necessarily too lean, but it quite fairly boney.
Reduce the amount of bone you feed and the stools will be softer. It
may take a while and some meals to sort out what amount of meat/bone
works best for each dog. Pumpkin is not part of the learning process.

Chris O
Please remember to trim your messages.

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15. raw & puppy development
Posted by: "Stevie Mathre" Rivendel@702com.net stevie_mathre
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:12 pm ((PDT))

I have a question which may or may not be related to raw feeding.

I have always had girls, and am now raising my first baby boy. He's a
smooth collie, 15 weeks old now. Show quality. I'm starting to worry
because his testicles haven't dropped yet.
Has anyone here who's been raising puppies on raw, noticed any
correlation between the two? I do know his growth has been
wonderfully even - no spurts in the front & wait for his read to
catch up, etc.

Thanks in advance...
Stevie & Kiernan the wonder pup
& the rest of the raw gang

Stevie Mathre CPDT
Rivendel Collies
Association of Pet Dog Trainers
rivendel@702com.net

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