[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12227

There are 8 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Question about small dogs and beef bones
From: cynthiashankman

2a. Re: still swallowing whole
From: delcaste
2b. Re: still swallowing whole
From: delcaste

3a. Re: 7# Chihuahua Ready for more than chicken
From: Giselle

4a. Re: {Raw Feeding} Lab work
From: jennifer_hell

5a. ADMIN/Re: {Raw Feeding} Lab work
From: jennifer_hell

6a. Re: Ground Food
From: Laurie Swanson

7. new to list - not to raw - new puppy
From: Elizabeth Hackley

Messages
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1a. Re: Question about small dogs and beef bones
Posted by: "cynthiashankman" ShankMa4@aol.com cynthiashankman
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:50 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Patty Linden <pattykat3@...> wrote:
>
> Hi--I was wondering if anyone with small dogs (mine is a 13 lb.
pomeranian) would have any suggestions for feeding beef bones. Would
beef ribs be a safe bone to feed (as far as not harming his teeth,
and would he be able to crush them?). I started my little guy out on
chicken a month ago. Lately he is refusing the chicken each time I
offer it, but absolutely loves to gnaw on a turkey neck.

Hi Patty,

From reading your message I don't see where you are feeding your dog
any meat without bone. Chicken has bone and the beef you are asking
about has bone. So where is the meaty meat?

As a NEW raw feeder myself, I did the same thing you are doing. I
fed only chicken and my dog refused it after awhile also. (btw, his
energy went down too) and I was frustrated and confused by his not
eating! Then I tried to figure out which bones to feed next....

BUT the QUESTION apparently wasn't "which bone to feed next",
but "which meaty meat (without bone) to feed next". 80% of the diet
is meaty meat (no bone), 10% is bone and 10% is organ. It's not so
clear that meat without bone is the main-stay of the diet. So it
looks like it's time to try meat without bone to round out the prey
model diet.

Moderators please feel free to correct anything I may have said that
is not correct or in need of adjustmetn. I just want to be sure
Patty has the idea of lots of meat WITHOUT BONE! As that may be why
your dog is refusing to not because he is being fussy. He probably
know his body and he has had enough chicken and bone.

Thanks!
Cynthia

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Re: still swallowing whole
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:51 pm ((PDT))

If the lamb piece had
> either been bigger, or chopped up smaller, that might have been
> safer. But if she's prone to gulping, ribboning a fairly small
hunk
> of boneless meat (but not quite small enough to swallow easily)
might
> make her think, "Oh, this will go down..." Or not even really
> think...You basically did half of her work for her, but she thought
> it was ready to swallow. But since she didn't do the work herself,
> she didn't really break it down into what she needed, nor did she
> have a good sense of what she was about to swallow. Make some
> sense? I think you're going to need to try bigger and/or more
> complicated, in order to make your girl stop for half a second and
> think about how she's going to tackle her meal, and to get a sense
of
> what she's eating. It really should work!

She's going to be getting Bigger food I think that's her problem. I
thought it was big enough but...She can handle bigger and more
complicated. You're right about bigger making her stop, today (gave
her a goat leg)she stared and stared at her food trying to figure out
how to attack.

> How often are you feeding? Can you feed bigger pieces less often?
> Or try to work up to it? That would really help. And what else
have
> you tried feeding and how has that gone?
>
> You may be able to get creative within the amount you want to feed
> daily. What about feeding some meat attached to bones she can't
eat
> (and then removing the inedible bones once they're cleaned off)?
Can
> she eat goat leg bones? If those aren't easily edible, maybe you
> could have a goat leg cut into, say, 1# pieces (1/2 lb. just seems
> too small, and you don't want any choking-sized bones). Then, if
you
> want to feed about 1/2 lb. per day, you could feed one of those one
> day and let her eat half. Feed the remaining half the next day, or
> alternate with another food.

I feed her once a day and I'm going to try and feed big pieces one
day and small little meals the next day that I can cut up and just
give it to her by hand. My dogs all have cast iron stomachs (from day
one). You know how you get all excited when you start feeding raw and
buy everything you can and feed them a different item everyday? Well
I did, lol, and they didn't get a stomach ache or cannon butt or
nothing. Well, poor pittie baby did have a little cannon butt but
that's only happened once.
>
> It's going to be hard to get bone in the diet feeding that small,
to
> a small dog, though. What about fish? Those are easy, edible
> bones. If you can't or won't feed bigger, you might need to feed a
> ground meat and bone mix and/or chop up her food into smaller
pieces
> she'll be less likely to choke on (bite-size).
>
> But you might find that if you can feed bigger, more labor-
intensive
> food less often, she will finally get somewhat satisfied--by the
> stimulation and exercise of ripping and tearing her food, as well
as
> the higher volume of food in her stomach. As I'm sure you know,
dogs
> are made for it--their stomachs are designed to stretch and shrink
> with big meals and then no meals, or small meals. They don't need
an
> exact amount every day (barring other health issues).
>
> Let us know what you think. We'll help you figure this out.

I am going to try to feed her complicated or Big Food. She eats like
a carnivore so it would be a shame to take that feeling away from
her. I'll outsmart her yet (with you guys help ;0)

Silvina

Messages in this topic (15)
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2b. Re: still swallowing whole
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:52 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Morledzep@... wrote:
>
>

> from what i've gathered on this list, cause i've never lived with a
pug, they
> are gulpers extraordinaire. They need BIG food, even though they
aren't big
> dogs.
>
> And the best way to feed a gulper is to force them not to gulp.
Feed things
> that are FAR bigger than their heads. And when you think they've
had enough,
> remove what is left, or when they are full and leave it alone. But
at that
> point it would probably be best to not feed them the next day.. or
just to give
> them a snack the next day. Depending of course on how much they eat.
>
> Catherine R.

Yeah, this one is pretty bad as far a gulpers go. I thought I was
already giving her big stuff for her size. I learned the hard way
that Big stuff means BIG. She will be getting much bigger pieces of
food and I'm going to try for Big one day, little the next. Thanks
for your help.

Silvina

Messages in this topic (15)
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3a. Re: 7# Chihuahua Ready for more than chicken
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:45 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Autumn!
YQW! TYVM!

I'm glad that I could help.

Since the Raw Feeding FAQ <http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html> comes
from our list owner's website, I'm sure her 'little' gets plenty of
meatymeat, lots more to eat than just chicken necks. ; )

AHA! Here's the whole section;
But how will I know how much to feed my dog? You feed your dog based on
their energy requirements. It will differ for how much work your dog does,
and what their metabolism is like.

As a rough guide, my adult male boxer (neutered) will eat a chicken quarter
a day as the base of his meal, and then some other bits and pieces. The same
goes for my Portuguese Water Dogs. My borzoi requires about twice as much.

My toy poodle will have three chicken necks a day (or more if he's been a
bit active) as the base for his meal.

My cats will eat about the same amount as the toy poodle, but they do prefer
fish over all other food!

Look at your dogs and cats regularly - if they are looking a bit porky, then
remove all carbs in their diet. If they look a bit thin, then, an extra
chicken quarter in the diet for a few days may be the solution.

It's not hard to do, and when you get into a routine, it's darn easy. Trust
me!

The relevant sentence is in toto; "My toy poodle will have three chicken
necks a day (or more if he's been a bit active) AS THE BASE for his meal."
NOT the entire meal.

And feeding chicken necks, or not, to your dog no matter what his size,
comes under the headings of "Know Thy Dog" and "YMMV". ^_^

What is recommended to new-to-raw peeps is how we raw feed our own dogs, but
blended with a lot of caution and warnings, until the newbies can get
several months experience under their belts, gain confidence and can judge
for themselves what they are comfortable feeding to their own individual
dogs after they've learned how to eat raw!

TC
Giselle

On 10/31/07, autumnji@aol.com <autumnji@aol.com> wrote:
>
> thanks to all who replied and esp Giselle,
>
> It is true that I did not do the homework and
> got overwhelmed by all the files. I'm sorry.
> by reading the posts I had realized I was way overfeeding
> edible bones and couldn't figure out what exactly to feed next.
> One of the files actually said their "little" got 3 chicken necks per
> day. I know this is not optimal.
>
> Thank you all for your devoted energy helping us
> confused newbies. Starting today I am going for more
> meatymeat and less edible bone.
>
> autumn
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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4a. Re: {Raw Feeding} Lab work
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 2:51 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:

> It's not the lab, it's the interpretation.
> Chris o
>

I totally agree. I spent months researching a couple of years ago, and
found that 99% of the vets cannot interpret the results correctly.
Here in Europe that's a really big problem, as the references are
taken from beagles, and age, breed etc are not taken into
consideration. I sent my dog's results to Dr.Dodds too, and know a lot
of people who do the same.

Jennifer with Mandy from Germany

Messages in this topic (12)
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5a. ADMIN/Re: {Raw Feeding} Lab work
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 2:51 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> This subject is closed. Further discussion should be taken to RawChat.
> Chris O
> Mod Team
>
I'm so sorry- I answered before I saw this. Please delete my message!

Jennifer

Messages in this topic (12)
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6a. Re: Ground Food
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 2:51 am ((PDT))

I use it to stuff Kongs and feed as snacks/small meals/keep-busy items
a couple times a week, or if I go out of town, it's an easy thing to
have others feed sometimes. But I notice my dog's breath was bad when
I got home from my last trip, after a few days of ground food--it's not
doing anything to clean his teeth.

Laurie

Messages in this topic (3)
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7. new to list - not to raw - new puppy
Posted by: "Elizabeth Hackley" twodobemom@yahoo.com twodobemom
Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 6:32 am ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!!!

I am new to this list (over from Raw Chat) and have some questions that
it was thought might be answered over here. I have a puppy (1.5 yr
dobe). I also have a senior dobe (almost 9).

Here are my questions. My puppy has been raw red since he came to live
with us in June. I've been trying to get him to eat what I thought
would be more "prey" model. In doing so, I have been feeding him meat
trimmings and stew meat for breakfast. He WOLFS down his food -
opening his mouth and just vacumming it all in at once then gagging.
Is this a behavior that will change over time? I want to be able to
leave him with his food and not worry about him choking. He also gets
pork and lamb neck bones, beef kidney, heart and on occasion, liver
(which he spits out). He's had whole chicken and rabbit but mostly
beef. I have not yet given him tripe (not sure why). On his food, I
give him fish oil.

He was bathed when he came to live with us because he STUNK. However,
both his breath and his body still stink and I cannot figure out why.
Are there any theories or suggestions that anyone has that might help -
short of taking him to the vet?

Messages in this topic (1)
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