[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12031

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Introduction and some questions.
From: mandajenwalker
1b. Re: Introduction and some questions.
From: kaylsraven

2a. Re: giving up!!
From: Howard Salob
2b. Re: giving up!!
From: morkydzgrl

3a. How to get started?
From: iheartlabs
3b. Re: How to get started?
From: steph.sorensen

4.1. Re: Newbie
From: great_dane_devotee

5a. Re: Grinder
From: geraldinebutterfield
5b. Re: Grinder
From: geraldinebutterfield

6a. Re: Is supervision required?
From: kaylsraven

7a. fish???eggs???
From: mandajenwalker
7b. Re: fish???eggs???
From: Andrea
7c. Re: fish???eggs???
From: Yasuko herron

8a. traveling with rawfed dog
From: Michael Moore
8b. Re: traveling with rawfed dog
From: rosey031801

9a. puppy coughing like chocking- help!!!
From: vickies_28
9b. Re: puppy coughing like chocking- help!!!
From: mgitaville
9c. Re: puppy coughing like chocking- help!!!
From: Casey Post
9d. Re: puppy coughing like chocking- help!!!
From: Tina Berry

10. DC Area - Beef Heart, Liver, and Ribs Deal is Back
From: mgitaville

11a. is this ok
From: mvd12720
11b. Re: is this ok
From: mvd12720
11c. Re: is this ok
From: Sandee Lee

12. Whole Mackeral
From: pierrenali

13. eating 4 day old buried meaty bone?
From: quiltingtuppy

Messages
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1a. Re: Introduction and some questions.
Posted by: "mandajenwalker" walker1031@chartermi.net mandajenwalker
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:31 am ((PDT))

HI Robyn,
I am new to raw feeding myself (3rd week in). I can tell you that I
had to cut my pug, Louie (just over a year old) from 3% to 2% because
he was putting on a little weight.
I started out feeding my dogs 2x's a day and he would get a average
sized chicken thigh in the morning (to start out, I only fed chicken
bone) and a leg at night (keeping in mind that he is from a line of
large pugs weighing in at an average of 22lbs.). Doesn't seem like
much but he started packing on the pounds quick! I had to cut him
back to 1 leg in the morning and at night or I would give him a large
thigh cut in half and give 1 half per meal. That worked well for me.
He is back to his ideal weight now.
It isn't that pugs will start eating and not stop (some are like that
and some are not) it is that they have the metabolism of a
snail....they can look at food and put on weight. So I found with
him, the best thing to do was start out with a the 3% and watch his
weight to see if I needed to adjust.
Good Luck!
Mandy, Hank, Louie and Evie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "rareimer1979" <rareimer@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, my name is Robyn, and this list is great! I've been reading for a
> couple weeks now, trying to get a feel for things. I have an 8-week
> old pug puppy (Ozzy) coming at the end of September, and I've already
> pretty much decided to feed him raw, but I still have some questions.
> (I've been trying to switch over my cats in the meantime for some
> practice. One of them has made the switch without ever looking back,
> the other is proving to be very stubborn indeed.)
>
> How much can I expect a pug puppy to eat? I know 2-3% of expected
> adult body weight, so if a pug is approx. 14-18 lbs, that means this
> little guy should be given about 1/2 lb. a day at the most...does this
> sound about right? I'm trying to visualize how much food that
> translates to...would it be one chicken thigh? Two? Maybe a
> drumstick? Half a chicken breast with bone? So if I am spreading this
> over 2-3 meals a day, what would a typical meal look like? I know
> lots of people say to just toss a whole big chunk and let him eat as
> much as he likes, but from what I hear of pugs, they will never stop
> eating on their own! I just want to make sure I'm feeding enough,
> because I'm not sure this little guy will be able to control his
appetite.
>
> Any experience from anyone who has raw-fed pugs...what kind of foods
> did they like, how much, etc...what kinds of things should I have on
> hand for him when he gets here?
>
> I guess I'm a little nervous, since with my cats, one seems to eat
> alot but still seems hungry all the time, and the other one doesn't
> seem to eat nearly enough...so I'm nervous about making sure they get
> enough food. It seems like alot of people here have really big dogs,
> so I'm trying to get a feel for what a smaller dog like a pug would be
> like feeding-wise.
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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1b. Re: Introduction and some questions.
Posted by: "kaylsraven" kaylsraven@yahoo.com kaylsraven
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:22 am ((PDT))

Hi Robyn. Congrats on the new pup, and congrats on getting at least
one cat to switch! I had a heck of a time convincing my cats that raw
meat was food, no really, I promise.

> How much can I expect a pug puppy to eat? I know 2-3% of expected
> adult body weight, so if a pug is approx. 14-18 lbs, that means this
> little guy should be given about 1/2 lb. a day at the most...does
this
> sound about right?

Yeah, that sounds about right.

I'm trying to visualize how much food that
> translates to...would it be one chicken thigh? Two? Maybe a
> drumstick? Half a chicken breast with bone?

Well...let's see. The big leg quarters in the ten pound bag you can
get at Walmart are about a pound each. My 14 lb terrier rat thing
eats one of those every other day, so it sounds like you're on the
right track. If you're really curious, grab one of those kitchen
scales at the grocery store and weigh what you get.

So if I am spreading this
> over 2-3 meals a day, what would a typical meal look like? I know
> lots of people say to just toss a whole big chunk and let him eat as
> much as he likes, but from what I hear of pugs, they will never stop
> eating on their own! I just want to make sure I'm feeding enough,
> because I'm not sure this little guy will be able to control his
appetite.

I tried that 'let'em eat however much they want' with my GSD pup--
didn't work out so well. Nowadays, at almost two, he's better, but
not so much when he was a pup. However, what you could try is
figuring out how much he's going to get for the day and then let him
eat on that for a while in the morning, take it away, then give it
back for his next meal. That'll save some cutting, at least ^_^

> Any experience from anyone who has raw-fed pugs...what kind of foods
> did they like, how much, etc...what kinds of things should I have on
> hand for him when he gets here?
>
It seems like alot of people here have really big dogs,
> so I'm trying to get a feel for what a smaller dog like a pug would
be
> like feeding-wise.
>

I have mostly big dogs, but like I said I do have a little terrier
rat thing (that's the official breed name, btw *lol*). When she was a
puppy, I did the 'give her the day's chunk of whatever and take it
away after, like, fifteen or twenty minutes, give it back at the next
meal' thing, mostly because I'm lazy and didn't feel like chopping
drumsticks in half. Also got the cornish hen things and quartered
them--they're a pound each, so it's a perfect (nearly) quarter pound
split for two meals a day. Use those for the cats as well. And once
he (she?) has settled into this whole raw food gig, stuff like pork
and fish and beef is easier to cut down to the chunks you want
because of either a lack of bones or ones which are easy to cut
through (fish--love fish. so useful, so helpful, so loved by the
brats).

Cheers,
Sabrina

Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. Re: giving up!!
Posted by: "Howard Salob" itiskismet1968@yahoo.com itiskismet1968
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:31 am ((PDT))

Dear Person giving up,


Seriously try the green tripe. Even the most finicky dogs love it. It is like chocolate to people. They cannot get enough of and it is healthy for them.

Sincerely,

Howard

ANTHONT RODRIGUEZ <luvthisphysique@yahoo.com> wrote:
MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!!

yeah he still has alot of energy and loves to play
still. so that's a good sign. i do agree though that
it's more of an issue that he has to eat when i put
the food down.. well basically he eats pork shoulder,
chicken thighs, and chicken breast with rib in it...
he eats about 2lbs a day when he does eat...how do you
suggest i feed him as far as types of meats, and how
much?? a rotating program would help alot.. thank you
>
> A personal digression, to make my point: I once had
> a very frustrating
> job, where no one else seemed to be doing THEIR
> jobs, so I had more
> work. During the time that I had to continue
> working there, I forced
> myself to develop very clear guidelines about what
> was my job and what
> WASN'T. I now have a mental shorthand -- "NMJ"
> reminds me that
> something is not my job and is not worth getting my
> panties in a knot
> about.
>
> IMO, providing the dog with a healthy, varied raw
> diet is YOUR job.
> Eating said diet is your DOG's job.
> If you're doing your job, then his job is his
> business.
>
> If the answers to those questions are NOT yes, then
> we do need more
> information to be able to help.
>
> -- sandy & griffin (both doin' our own jobs)
>
>

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Messages in this topic (12)
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2b. Re: giving up!!
Posted by: "morkydzgrl" ShankMa4@aol.com morkydzgrl
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:16 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, ANTHONT RODRIGUEZ
<luvthisphysique@...> wrote:
>
>
well basically he eats pork shoulder,
> chicken thighs, and chicken breast with rib in it...

Hey Anthony and All,

OMGosh I totally here you on the frustration. I am new to this too
and what is happening to you happened to me. It is upsetting, been
there! As it turns out when it was happening to me I was feeding the
same two foods you mentioned, oh and I added turkey. He didn't like
that either.

I tried lamb and beef. He eats both of those happily. His energy
went up too. The other thing that has been an eye opener for me is
how little 10% bone and 10% organ is compared to the meat without
bone in the diet. My mind kept going to bones when I started this
(think I gave too much). Now I am seeing that this is mostly about
meat and a bit of bones and organs. Right mods?????

Cindi

Messages in this topic (12)
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3a. How to get started?
Posted by: "iheartlabs" iheartlabs@yahoo.com iheartlabs
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:34 am ((PDT))

Hi all,

I'm new to the group and am curious how to start raw feeding. I
recently adopted a toothless pit bull (yes, I said toothless) and he's
currently eating canned food but I think he's allergic to it. He is
constantly scratching and giving himself hot spots. I feel awful
because I know he has to be miserable, but the premium canned food that
is supposed to be geared towards helping allergies is out of my
budget. He's about 50lb. but a little underweight (he was an abuse
case) so I'm not sure how much I should feed him or what exactly is in
the raw diet. Any advice would be appreciated!

Thanks!
Leah

Messages in this topic (2)
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3b. Re: How to get started?
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:41 am ((PDT))

Hey Leah!

Since no one has answered yet, I figured I would get it started by
saying that when I proposed feeding a toothless animal raw (the same
toothless animal!) to this list, I was told just to give him chicken
quarters to start with, without cutting or processing in any way,
and see how he does with them. Raw chicken bones are fairly soft,
and most dogs can crunch them up on jaw strength alone.

Since he is around 50lbs, I would feed him 7-8 lbs a week. You can
start by feeding him twice a day (start with a chicken quarter, then
if he doesn't finish it, stick it in the fridge and give it to him
later - but if I know Cecil, he will probably finish it!), then you
can gradually start feeding him bigger things and feed less often.
Watch his weight during the first few weeks and make sure he doesn't
gain a bunch or lose a bunch and adjust accordingly.

Not sure if he's underweight. If his ribs are really prominent than
he could stand to gain some. He could probably stand to gain about
5lbs of muscle regardless, but he's come a long way from the 20lbs
he was.

This should at least get you started, and it will also hopefully
spur others who have much, MUCH more experience than I do, to
respond to your request for help.

Good luck, Leah! :) Give Cecil big hugs and many kisses for me!!

-Steph
Scarlet (Try it Cecil...you'll LOVE it!!)
Lucy (It's yummers!!)
Minkey (I wouldn't know, but I'll be able to tell you by Monday. :))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "iheartlabs" <iheartlabs@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm new to the group and am curious how to start raw feeding. I
> recently adopted a toothless pit bull (yes, I said toothless) and
he's
> currently eating canned food but I think he's allergic to it.
He's about 50lb. but a little underweight (he was an abuse
> case) so I'm not sure how much I should feed him or what exactly
is in
> the raw diet. Any advice would be appreciated!
>
> Thanks!
> Leah
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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4.1. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "great_dane_devotee" libpowers@mac.com great_dane_devotee
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:20 am ((PDT))

Thanks! That's very helpful.

Libby

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Libby!
> Welcome!
> Here are my recommendations:
> 1. You’ll want to start with 2-3% of your dog’s ESTIMATED IDEAL ADULT
> weight. Tweak with more meat if your dog gets a bit skinny, a bit less
> if your dog gets ‘fluffy’ over the space of a few weeks. You might
> start out by weighing your dog, and weighing her meals; but most peeps
> don’t continue once they get more comfortable and casual about feeding
> raw. Tiny, toy, pregnant, puppies or very active dogs might need as
> much as 4-5% or more - very large, giant, overweight or couch potato
> dogs might need less than 2% to maintain.
> 2. Ditch the kibble or canned â€" there’s been plenty of discussion on
> this list about why processed foods and raw don’t mix; just let it
> suffice that your dog can reap the benefits of raw faster and more
> completely if you donate the kibble to your local shelter asap. A
> species appropriate raw whole prey model diet doesn’t include kibble.
> Or veggies, grains or tons of supps. Or, for the most part, ground
> meats. No need for w/rec/k bones either. And, your dog may be less
> motivated to make the change if he can smell that kibble!
> 3. Offer at least 2 meals a day to start with. (three meals for a pup
> under 6 months old or for tiny dogs) Feeding once a day (or even less
> often) can be a great feeding plan for a dog, but not at first; too
> much new food at a meal can cause digestive upset. Feed as large a
> portion as you can for the size of the meal. No little pieces or cut
> up, ‘bite sized’ chucks. Dogs need to tear into their food and shear
> hunks off to swallow and crunch bone for physical, mental and dental
> health. They don’t chew or eat the way we do, their digestion begins
> in their stomachs, not in their mouths. So swallowing big hunks of
> meat and bone is fine. If it fits, its OK. If it isn’t happy in the
> stomach, the dog will hork it up, and re eat it, so it will go down
> and stay down the 2nd or 3rd time. Its all good, that’s the way dogs are.
> 4. Feed a little less at each meal at first than you think you should.
> Too much new food over the course of a day or two can cause digestive
> upset, too. Some dogs are, or learn to be, self-regulators. That
> means, no matter how much food you offer them, or how often, they will
> only eat as much as they need. You might just want to offer them
> fattier portions of meatymeat pork, tongue, beef or veal heart with
> the cap fat left on, some trim) more often, after they get used to
> eating raw. Just be sure your new-to-raw dog knows that what you are
> serving is real food, then, leave him to decide. OTOH, some dogs never
> get full! “Know thy Dog.â€? is the motto that applies here.
> 5. Stay with one new protein for at least a week, maybe two. You want
> the dog to be showing you that he is well adjusted to the new protein
> before adding in new stuff. Take it slow; add only one new protein
> every week or two.
> 6. You can switch to a new protein by just serving it at the next
> meal, and all the meals after that for a week or so, or you can add a
> bite or two of the new protein in with the ‘old’ protein, gradually
> adding more new and less ‘old’ over several days, until you are
> feeding all new and no ‘old’. Whatever works for your own dog.
> 7. Boneless meals tend to produce loose, even runny poops. A judicious
> amount of bone in a newbie dog’s meal will tend to firm things up.
> There will be less poop overall; raw is much more digestible and less
> goes to waste. Poops will be less frequent also, for the same reason.
> Bone adds bulk, so sloppy poops can be firmed up by some (don’t go
> overboard!) bone at each meal at first. Too much bone and your dog
> can get “ fossilâ€? poops that are dry, whitish and crumbly.
> 8. Chicken is recommended as the first protein to be introduced for
> several reasons: its cheap, easy to obtain, easy to cut into different
> dog meal sized portions, you can trim visible fat and skin if you need
> to tweak, most dogs will eat it and its pretty bland. Read the labels
> on the chicken before you buy; don’t get any that say its enhanced
> with flavoring/seasonings or salt injected. Some dogs get itchy or
> vomit or get true diarrhea from enhancements. Whole chickens are the
> best to start with, ime. Cut into portion sizes with kitchen shears,
> as needed.
> 9. Some newbie dogs vomit or poop bone bits. There is an adjustment
> period, so you want some bone in most meals at first, but too much
> bone may not be digested and the dog will just hork it up or poop it
> out. NPs, its just the dog’s way of saying “Too much right now, no
> thanks.�
> 10. Some dogs will get the Bile Vomits or Bone Bile Vomits (BV or BBV)
> when new to raw simply because their schedules or routines of eating
> have been changed. When a dog adjusts to raw, his gastric ‘juices’
> become much more acid, to better digest the raw meat and bone. If he’s
> expecting a meal at a certain time, the ‘juices start flowing’ in
> anticipation of getting a meal. When the meal doesn’t happen, the dog
> often will hork up the yellowish, foamyish bile, with or without
> bones. Sometimes they hork up BBV because raw digests faster than
> kibble, the tummy is empty, so it must be time to eat. NP for the dog,
> he’s gotten rid of the irritation. He may react as if he feels bad,
> just because you are upset that he did it on your new comforter, or on
> the white carpet.
> 11. A lot of dogs don’t drink as much water or as frequently when
> switched to all raw, all the time. Raw has a pretty high water content
> and most dogs are forced by dry as dust kibble to over drink water to
> compensate in order for their bodies to process it. If only fed raw,
> you don’t need to coax your dog to drink more water or even broth,
> just offer plenty of fresh water, he’ll drink when he needs it.
> 12. True diarrhea is not just loose, runny or sloppy poops. It is
> frequent, liquid or watery explosions of poo that a dog cannot ‘hold
> back’. True diarrhea, imo, is caused by disease, parasites or
> inappropriate food or non food items. The occasional loose poops, even
> over a few days, from feeding a few too many boneless meals or
> introing a new protein or feeding too much organ at one whack, is not
> diarrhea.
> 13. The general rule of thumb for feeding raw is: 80% meat (muscle,
> fat, skin, connective tissue) 10% EDIBLE bone (not all bone that is
> served must be consumed) and 10% organs (5% of this is liver, the rest
> is as much variety as you can find and afford) This is not an
> immutable ‘daily requirement’. Balance Over Time, over weeks and
> months is one of the raw feeding mottos. ; ) If you feed true whole
> prey, that is; entire animals at a time, then the meat to bone to
> organ ratios are ‘perfect’ for that creature. Whatever parts your dog
> can eat of is right for him. In the wild, wolves will eat off a large
> animal carcass for days, and each wolf gets different parts. If times
> are hard, they will consume the entire critter, including skin, fur,
> less ‘choice’ parts and will even crack the hard long bones to get to
> the marrow. If pickin’s are plentiful, they will eat the easiest and
> choice parts, and then move on. Because of variances in size, age,
> personality, life experiences and dental ability, a particular dog
> will be able to consume, or not: all or part or some or a little bone
> from any particular animal. If you feed ‘Frankenprey’, that is; a
> variety of protein, body parts and organs from different animals, to
> simulate the whole prey experience for your dogs, you are challenged
> to find enough variety in all these aspects for optimal health.
> 14. Organs - don’t try to add a lot of organs or organ variety at
> first. An easy way to satisfy the human need to “Do it all, right
> now!�, is to toss the gizzards and heart you get with your whole
> chickens in with a bonier meal, a little piece at a meal. Heart and
> gizzards are organs, but should be fed as meatymeat. The liver can be
> cut up into teensy bits, and fed a tiny bit at a time with a meal.
> This will allow you to feed organs, but shouldn’t cause runny stools.
> If it does, cut it out and freeze those parts for later down the line.
> My list of organs, so I don’t forget to look for variety; liver, heart
> (fed as meat), cheek meat, head meat, salivary glands, feet, lips,
> oxtail, spleen, tongue (usually fed as meat), weasand meat
> (esophagus), tripe, stomach, sweetbread (thymus & pancreas), ears,
> kidneys, brain, tripe, poultry giblets - heart, liver, gizzard and
> snouts. Heads, with all the ‘stuff’, including eyes.
> “offalâ€? - viscera and trimmings of a butchered animal often considered
> inedible by
> humans.
> 15. SEBP - Slippery Elm Bark Powder. This is a good innocuous herb
> that soothes the stomach and digestive system. If you feel you need to
> intervene when your dog has loose poops or constipation, this is the
> way to go. SEBP is “used to treat diarrhea, constipation, enteritis,
> colitis & irritations of the stomach. Used to soothe, protect &
> lubricate mucous membranes. Also, used to relieve the discomforts of
> kennel cough & other types of bronchitis.�
> http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm
> I use 1 tsp of SEBP to one ounce of ground or chopped chicken. Mix
> together and shape enough meatballs for several days doses, and freeze
> them. They thaw quickly. For small dogs, divide in ½ ounce meatballs,
> for large to giant dogs, 1 ounce meatballs. Feed 1 with each meal. Or,
> fast for a day, (not for pups, fast for just a meal or two) offer
> plenty of water. Feed SEBP meatballs 3-4 times throughout the day.
> Feed smaller, more frequent meals for several days after, gradually
> increasing the meals and decreasing the SEBP meatballs. You will often
> see an increase in mucousy poops with SEBP, this is part of the way it
> soothes the digestive system, and the dog’s body will do the same
> sometimes even without SEBP.
> 16. You can feed pretty much any animal or animal part that your dog
> will eat and that won’t break the bank. : ) Common grocery store
> variety suffices for some; chicken, turkey, pork, beef, lamb, fish,
> rabbit. Others can obtain at a reasonable price and feed; goat,
> venison, emu, ostrich, bison, beefalo, elk, mutton, mice, rats, guinea
> hen, quail, bear (bear? ;) ), the list goes on and on.
> 17. If you must supplement, you can add Salmon or Fish Body oil,
> either in caps or liquid. Make sure it doesn’t have any plant based
> oils, like soy, in there. You probably don’t need much. Follow the
> recommendations that come with the product you buy:
> http://timberwolforganics.com/pet-omega-oils

> http://www.icelandpure.com/salmon_oil.htm

> http://www.grizzlypetproducts.com/salmon_oil/salmon_oil.html

> In the case of true disease, you may need certain supps, but this is
> the exception to the rule, most dogs don’t.
> 18. Lis’ List; ways to creatively source cheaper variety in protein,
> parts and organs. FreeCycle and craigslist are great ways to find a
> free or cheap freezer to hold all the scores you’ll be making!
>
> “ Where do you look for meat suppliers?
> Permission to repost from Lis
> A) Look up meat and poultry packers, processors, and distributors in
> the yellow pages. You may be able to get great prices from them if you
> order in bulk, and/or they may have a discount outlet that is open to
> the public.
> B) I get many of my best deals in Asian/Oriental markets. I’ve also
> heard that Hispanic and Caribbean markets have great variety and
> prices too.
> C) You may be able to join a barter group.
> D) Google breeders (i.e. rabbit, goat, lamb, etc.) who are in your
> geographic area. They may have culls they want to get rid of, or lower
> prices overall.
> E) Look up bulk suppliers and frozen bulk foods in your yellow pages.
> F) If you have a Chinatown nearby, definitely make a visit.
> G) Let your friends, relatives, and neighbors know you want any
> freezer burn or old meat when they clean out their freezers, and tell
> them to pass the word along.
> H)If you belong to a church or social group, tell those members to
> mention it to their friends and relatives as well.
> I) See if there are any co-ops or meat buying groups near you. Check
> on Yahoo, or Google to see.
> J) Try craigslist - it’s amazing what you can get for free or cheap.
> K) And I get meat and fish all the time (for free) through
> FreeCycle. Join multiple lists if there are a few close by.
> L) Some Wal-marts and some Costcos and some Sam’s Clubs have good
> deals, but you may want to make sure it’s not seasoned meat.
> M) Definitely watch the flyers, and you can usually see the rest of
> the flyers online (the ones that don’t get delivered to your house,
> but are only a short drive away).
> N) *** Hands down, the bulk of my best deals have been marked down
> meat at regular grocery stores. They reduce it the day before it is
> going to expire, and I go as early as I can to get it before it is gone.
> O) Tell friends and relatives who hunt and fish that you want first
> dibs on any body parts they don’t. You can probably get at least the
> organs and maybe the head. Also ask them to put you in touch with
> their other friends who hunt and fish.
> P) A great tip I learned here a while back â€" some restaurants throw
> out things they don’t use, like the organs that come inside whole
> poultry, or raw meat that falls on the floor. See if they’ll save them
> for you. Find somebody who knows somebody who works there.
> Q) Farmer’s markets are great, but pick and choose carefully for the
> best bargains. And sometimes at the end of the day some vendors will
> reduce their prices, ‘cause they don’t want to take it back with them.
> R) Some people contact taxidermists, who have no use for the meat.
> S) Find people on this list from your vicinity, and ask them where
> they get their meat deals. Join other raw feeding lists (there are
> many), and ask if there are other raw feeders in your area.
> T) Tell your butcher you want the meat that they would normally throw
> out, that is almost out of date, that people ordered and didn’t pick
> up, stuff that was dropped on the floor, their freezer cleanouts, and
> parts that don’t sell (like trachea, lungs, spleen, etc.). Some
> butchers will save their trim for you (once they get to know you).
> Build a relationship with them first.
> U) Yes, roadkill works too (where it is legal). In some places you can
> get your name on the list and get called when they have large
> roadkill. (like deer)
> V) You can raise your own meat/poultry if you have the room.
> W) Post a message in Carnivore Feed-Supplier or CFS-Canada if you are
> in North America:
> http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/
> http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CFS-Canada/
> X) Speak to local farmers.
> Y) Also, look for heart, tongue, and gizzards, which count as meat (as
> opposed to organ) in the world of raw feeding, but are often cheaper
> than other muscle meats.
> Z) Find somebody who knows somebody who works at the grocery store.
> They can introduce you to the meat guy, who may become more willing to
> save stuff for you or reduce items about to expire, once they know you.
> AA) Check the internet. Some suppliers have affordable prices, even
> after shipping costs are calculated.
>
> Lis�
>
> 19. Don’t hover! It takes some dogs a couple of days to realize that
> what you’re giving them is real food, and they’re allowed to eat it.
> This process will take less time if you’re not standing over them in
> an excess of anxiety. Some dogs react to that kind of anxiety by
> acting as if they don’t want the food, when in reality, they are just
> confused by your mixed signals. Remember, “people foodâ€? has always
> been off limits to him prior to this! Take the food to his feeding
> place, put it on an old towel or rug and have a seat. Don’t stare, but
> do hang out, reading a magazine until he’s done and you can let him
> outside and fold up his towel.
>
> It really isn’t that hard to raw feed your dog. There’s a learning
> curve, definitely. But, that’s what this list is here for.
> Read as many daily posts as you can, read the files on the website,
> and follow those links! Search in the archives for past posts with
> keywords; new to raw, newbie, help, how do I start or other words that
> reflect your specific search.
> http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/?yguid=200913350
> TC, and let us know how you and your dog progress!
> Giselle
> with Bea in New Jersey
>
>
>
> > I'm new to the forum. I have some history with feeding raw. <snip>
> It was
> > pretty expensive feeding a giant and a large dog chicken backs and
> necks, how much
> > more will it be costly to feed whole chickens?
> >
> > AACK! I love my dogs, but they are not my whole life! Does anyone
> do this who has
> > figured out how to bring it into their life?
> <snip>
> > How do you do this and not have it cost so much? And finlly, where
> do you get a variety if
> > meat?
> >
> > Thanks. I'd love to feed my dogs the best diet, because one suffers
> terribly from allergies,
> > and the other (younger) seems to be developing them.
> >
> > Libby
>

Messages in this topic (112)
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5a. Re: Grinder
Posted by: "geraldinebutterfield" gbutterflied@comcast.net geraldinebutterfield
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:24 am ((PDT))

> *****
> This may well be but the answer is not grinding. The answer is as
> simple as changing your feeding style. You don't have to feed raw
> meaty bones every meal and you don't have to feed bone every meal
and
> for that matter your dog can most likely do quite well on less bone
> Chris O

hmmm... I give bone with her meals an average of 5 times a week. If
she gets less her poo is very, very soft. Sounds like I need to work
on this. Will she get used to less bone and have a firmer poo? She
does LOVE, and I mean LOVE, her whole bones.

thanks,
geraldine

Messages in this topic (5)
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5b. Re: Grinder
Posted by: "geraldinebutterfield" gbutterflied@comcast.net geraldinebutterfield
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:24 am ((PDT))

>
>
> Hi Geraldine,
>
> When I first ventured in to rawfeeding, I am ashamed to say I did
> grind some chicken for my dog. That only lasted about 2 weeks. The
> grinder I bought was off the Northerntool website. It works great.
> We now use it for our own ground meats. Now we know what is in the
> hamburger us humans eat.
>
> Liz

Thanks. I have the butcher grind roast for our ground meat. I will
check out this manf. for grinder. It may very well end up for myself.
geraldine
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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6a. Re: Is supervision required?
Posted by: "kaylsraven" kaylsraven@yahoo.com kaylsraven
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:24 am ((PDT))

It's up to you, like they've said. I watched my guys when I first
switched over--it was fascinating, and I loved it. Then things got
busy, I was pretty certain they wouldn't choke, and I stopped watching-
-just kept an eye or ear out. Now I've gone back to watching because
I'm dealing with food stealing by my terrier and one heeler, and
aggression between the two heelers. *shrug* Things change, doggie
attitudes are fluid. If you think they're good, then give it a shot if
you like, just watch from the window. You can always change your mind
again *G*

Cheers,
Sabrina

Messages in this topic (8)
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7a. fish???eggs???
Posted by: "mandajenwalker" walker1031@chartermi.net mandajenwalker
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:24 am ((PDT))

Hi all.
(3rd week in) OK I have gone through the initial stage of starting on
chicken bone. I have now added in small chunks of beef and occasional
neck, with great success. I tried small amounts of liver.....but I
think it is too soon for that....or I'm giving too much. I'm not real
sure, still playing around with it.
My question is when do we start on the fish, eggs etc. I feel like
they are getting a lot of the same thing all the time. What type of
fish do I use and how often to I give eggs and fish to them??? Any
other cheap meat products that are good for them would be helpful too....
Thanks a lot!
Mandy, Hank, Louie and Evie

Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: fish???eggs???
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:15 am ((PDT))

If the stools are good you can add an egg with a less meaty meal and
see how your pup does. Eggs can produce loose stools and
some "interesting" smells from the hind end the first few times out so
be aware of that. I'd wait until you have determined that beef is
being digested well before you move on to fish. When you do add fish,
don't feed too much at once. Some dogs get upset tummies after eating
too much fish the first time and it comes back up. Nothing smells
worse than fish dinner on your bed in the middle of the night, trust me.

You should also think about adding pork when you get the chance. Pork
is pretty cheap and it is easy to get shoulder roasts and ribs and
such. Beef tongue and heart is great if you can find it at a
reasonable price.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mandajenwalker" <walker1031@...>
wrote:

> My question is when do we start on the fish, eggs etc. I feel like
> they are getting a lot of the same thing all the time. What type of
> fish do I use and how often to I give eggs and fish to them??? Any
> other cheap meat products that are good for them would be helpful
> too....

Messages in this topic (3)
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7c. Re: fish???eggs???
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:17 am ((PDT))

>My question is when do we start on the fish, eggs etc.

Hi. I started my dog on chicken organ like liver on secondweek of feeding with chicken.
For fish,I remember 4th or 5th (Sorry,I do not have Journal with me here now),and Egg was probably after Fish I think.

There is no rule when you should feed.It is own judgement I think. If you start from small bit of chicken liver,for example,like around pinky nail sized,then,your dog be fine.If not, try it later or much smaller bits and gradually get it bigger to yourdog's needs.

For fish.. I fed Tilapia first fish meal and it was very bad idea. After eating themeal about 2 hours,she started whiny at door and after potty place,she did greenish puddy andshe was miserable.I probably wash her butt 2 times orso in a day that time.

I then had error about Herring too.I thought it was water packed herring at store and bought it and fed it.It actually was slted watered herring.Must have been way too salty.She drank water likecrazy andtook me to potty every 45 min to one hours.

Now i know those were bad choice. I do not feed cat fisheither because all she wants to do is to roll on it,not eating it. I hearthat if you cut barb of fish,it is ok to feed but not my dog.It depends on dog I think.

I fed shark steak yesterday. It was just cheap 1 steak 1 dollarorsomething monthsago. I do not see it anymore and wish i had more because my dog loves this thing.

I fed shark,Halibutt,Flounder,Perch,Rock fish, Whiting,Mahi mahi,Squid,shrimp,scallop etc.

I usually get fresh looking fish on thatday and usually buy small for just in case like cat fish time. I try to choose wild caught fish not farm raised.

I avoid Tuna,and Pacific north west caught Trout&Salmon.

I feed fish 2 times a week and give 1 Egg per week.

But it is just me.You can feed more Egg if dog can torelate it.

yassy

PS;pork maybe good addition if you not finding pork in menu. I have bought pork butt 1 dollar 20cents or around per pound at Ukrop grocery store before.

---------------------------------
Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. traveling with rawfed dog
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:16 am ((PDT))

>>I know feeding whole, bone and all is the best way to feed. However,
because we travel so much I can't always give my Brandy the whole
piece to take her time with.<<

Well, as someone who traveled "a lot" campaigning a show dog several years ago, I can tell you that I worked out a system and you can, too. I have one of those Coleman coolers that keeps ice for five days. I froze meals, then transferred them to the Coleman. I had a separate cooler for the first day's meal. The other meals I took, one at a time, from the Coleman and put into the "other" cooler. This was six days' worth of food. If I was going to be gone longer than a week, I froze enough meals to last, and made sure the Coleman cooler was always full of ice. I never had a problem, but I "made" it work because I was unwilling to compromise my dog's nutrition for my convenience.
And as far as "taking her time" -- feed her in her crate in your vehicle or in the hotel room/tent/whatever. Feed bone-in meals less frequently. Take cans of salmon for one meal. There are all sorts of ways to work through this situation. It takes some advance planning, but it can work.

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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8b. Re: traveling with rawfed dog
Posted by: "rosey031801" rosey031801@sbcglobal.net rosey031801
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:41 am ((PDT))

I did something special for my dog when I left him at the sitters and
he couldn't go with me. I made hamburger patties with a litle seasoning
and froze them. She fed them frozen so he got to eat something hard but
it was much easier and quicker than bone in meats. The only drawback
for him is that if he goes without bone for too many days he starts to
hurt from the arthritis. Thats what made me realize how important the
cartlidge is (Glucosamine).
Just my ideas.
Cheryl

Messages in this topic (2)
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9a. puppy coughing like chocking- help!!!
Posted by: "vickies_28" vickies_28@yahoo.com vickies_28
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:40 am ((PDT))

Hi
my puppy is coughing, almost like chocking since yesterday. He's been
on raw for 5 weeks now, never saw him actually choke on a bone when
eating, he usually chews well. I have been giving him whole chicken
cut up in pieces, with bones, ribs, etc. So he's been doing this
coughing since yesterday night, goes like khe-khe-khe, and then makes
sort of an effort to throw up, but nothing comes out.
I am so scared that he's chocking on a bone or somehting. what can I
do to help him?

Vickie

Messages in this topic (4)
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9b. Re: puppy coughing like chocking- help!!!
Posted by: "mgitaville" mgitaville@hotmail.com mgitaville
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:51 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "vickies_28" <vickies_28@...> wrote:
>
> Hi
> my puppy is coughing, almost like chocking since yesterday. He's been
> on raw for 5 weeks now, never saw him actually choke on a bone when
> eating, he usually chews well. I have been giving him whole chicken
> cut up in pieces, with bones, ribs, etc. So he's been doing this
> coughing since yesterday night, goes like khe-khe-khe, and then makes
> sort of an effort to throw up, but nothing comes out.
> I am so scared that he's chocking on a bone or somehting. what can I
> do to help him?
>
> Vickie
>

***** This sounds like kennel cough. Usually kennel cough has sort of
a gagging sound to it at the end of the cough - occassionally some
slobber or bile might come up to, but generally not. Not saying he
couldn't have something stuck, but when you described the sound this
instantly came to mind especially given he is still a pup.

If it is kennel cough not a lot you can do but wait it out in my
opinion. Hopefully someone else will have a better suggestion for
checking on chocking than my flashlight down the throat idea!

Marguerita

Messages in this topic (4)
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9c. Re: puppy coughing like chocking- help!!!
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:54 am ((PDT))

Sounds like a trip to the vet is in order. It may be as simple as kennel
cough, but there's no harm in having someone have a look-see down his
throat.

Casey

Messages in this topic (4)
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9d. Re: puppy coughing like chocking- help!!!
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:27 pm ((PDT))

"goes like khe-khe-khe, and then makes sort of an effort to throw up, but
nothing comes out.
I am so scared that he's chocking on a bone or somehting. what can I do to
help him?

Has he had a bowel movement yet? Also, could he have gotten kennel cough
from another dog/kennel?

--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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10. DC Area - Beef Heart, Liver, and Ribs Deal is Back
Posted by: "mgitaville" mgitaville@hotmail.com mgitaville
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:52 am ((PDT))

Hi - just wanted to let DC area feeders know that Eastern Market is
back up and running which means Union Meat Co. is back. I had just
worked out my first order with them before the fire and am happy to
have been able to pick up my second order with them last week.

They are good for 3 items: beef heart, beef liver, and beef rib
slabs. Remember, part of the price is no packagining required....the
only thing they do is cut the hearts in half and livers in thirds.
(Hearts are around 8lbs whole and livers are 10-12)

I get all 3 items for $1.19/lb - was $1.09 first time around but this
time the hearts were fresh (not frozen) from different supplier so
this is the best they could do.

I know some of you pick up ribs from C&C - I like them for some
items, but definitely not ribs. Ribs are a favorite meal for us and
they have a lot more meat on them from Union Meat Co.

Roy or Bill is who to ask for. Just an FYI for those interested.

Marguerita

Messages in this topic (1)
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11a. is this ok
Posted by: "mvd12720" mvd12720@yahoo.com mvd12720
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:26 pm ((PDT))

well i had someone give me about 40 pounds of meat chicken fish and
beef out of her freezer it has been in there a while and is freezer
burned is that ok to give my dog???? also my dog will not eat fish
what should i do??

melissa

Messages in this topic (3)
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11b. Re: is this ok
Posted by: "mvd12720" mvd12720@yahoo.com mvd12720
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:36 pm ((PDT))

i'm sorry you do not have to answer about he fish i forgot i posted
it a couple of days ago i lost power so i was not able to checck my
messages

sorry melissa

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mvd12720" <mvd12720@...> wrote:
>
> well i had someone give me about 40 pounds of meat chicken fish and
> beef out of her freezer it has been in there a while and is freezer
> burned is that ok to give my dog???? also my dog will not eat fish
> what should i do??
>
> melissa
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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11c. Re: is this ok
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:37 pm ((PDT))

Freezer burned meat is fine. If she doesn't want fish, don't feed fish.
It's not necessary!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "mvd12720" <mvd12720@yahoo.com>

well i had someone give me about 40 pounds of meat chicken fish and
beef out of her freezer it has been in there a while and is freezer
burned is that ok to give my dog???? also my dog will not eat fish
what should i do??

Messages in this topic (3)
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12. Whole Mackeral
Posted by: "pierrenali" sandihunt@hotmail.com pierrenali
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:16 pm ((PDT))

Does anyone feed whole Mackeral as opposed to canned? How about Salmon
heads? My local Asian market has these and I like the fact they aren't
full of water. My pup ate them up, but the 4 yr old Bichon, just
carried it around, so the pup eventually ate it all. She crushed the
bones and ate it just like her chicken, throughly chewing. Do fish
bones (raw) carry any more risk than other bones?

What other fish with or without bones (please specify) is reasonable?

Thanks,

Sandi - owned by Pierre (Bichon) & Ali (Presa Canario)

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13. eating 4 day old buried meaty bone?
Posted by: "quiltingtuppy" mamacass@iprimus.com.au quiltingtuppy
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:34 pm ((PDT))

Hi Everyone,

This has a high ewwwww factor for me!, what do folk think about allowing my puppy to eat
stuff he's saved for (much) later buried in the ground? He seems to think it's great!

My neighbour has a twist to to this - he's seen his dogs bury a long bone like a femur, and he
thinks when the (marrow?) has sufficiently aged, they dig it up and devour it, but slowly - as
if savouring it, lick by lick instead of madly chomping on it.

I'm happy to let Charlie eat his buried treasure so long as the long-time raw feeders consider
this ok? (we're only 6 weeks into raw feeding here and loving it - why isn't this standard
practice given a dog's dentition?!) I was thinking seeing as this has to be instinctive for him, I
should trust his doggie wisdom?

Regards
Stephanie

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