Feed Pets Raw Food: [rawfeeding] Digest Number 12030

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. density of lamb ribs vs. pork ribs
From: Laurie Swanson
1b. Re: density of lamb ribs vs. pork ribs
From: costrowski75
1c. Re: density of lamb ribs vs. pork ribs
From: Kelly

2a. Re: giving up!!
From: Giselle

3a. Re: Great article
From: Giselle

4.1. Re: Newbie
From: Morledzep@aol.com
4.2. Re: Newbie
From: Giselle

5a. Introducing myself and Zachary
From: Mia-Shay Emery

6a. My senior dog has been on raw a week
From: delcaste
6b. Re: My senior dog has been on raw a week
From: Giselle

7. Re: Don't know if I had a chance to introduce myself and I will
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

8a. chicken pieces...too small??
From: Cdandp2@aol.com
8b. Re: chicken pieces...too small??
From: Sandee Lee
8c. Re: chicken pieces...too small??
From: Laurie Swanson
8d. Re: chicken pieces...too small??
From: ginny wilken

9a. Re: Don't know if I had a chance to introduce myself and I will shor
From: Giselle

10. Introduction and some questions.
From: rareimer1979

11a. Re: Is supervision required?
From: jmwise80
11b. Re: Is supervision required?
From: costrowski75

12a. Re: Grass Eating
From: jmwise80
12b. Re: Grass Eating
From: Giselle
12c. Re: Grass Eating
From: costrowski75
12d. Re: Grass Eating
From: costrowski75

13a. Re: Grinder
From: costrowski75

14a. Re: raw feeding for 2 years* update on Molly - pancreatitis-prone di
From: Trish

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. density of lamb ribs vs. pork ribs
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:58 pm ((PDT))

Hi All,

Are lamb ribs harder than pork ribs?

Today I fed my dog a not-very-large meal of a few lamb ribs in a slab
(with some liver and a bit of boneless meat) and he left the rib
bones. I picked one up and tried to hand feed it to him because I
wanted to avoid the hershey squirts tonight but he mouthed it but still
wouldn't take it. I have fed him the riblets before and he's eaten
them, but these were definitely harder than those, and seemed harder
than pork ribs maybe. He crunches pork ribs fine.

I'm pretty sure it's not his teeth, but I'll keep an eye on it.

Thanks,

Laurie

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: density of lamb ribs vs. pork ribs
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:56 pm ((PDT))

"Laurie Swanson" <laurie@...> wrote:
>
> Are lamb ribs harder than pork ribs?
*****
Difficult to say. FWIW, my 10lb cat will completely--and promptly--
devour a lamb rib but cannot do the same to a pork rib. For my adult
retrievers, I think lamb ribs finish more quickly than pork ribs do.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: density of lamb ribs vs. pork ribs
Posted by: "Kelly" kelism@gmail.com vt_stuff
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:16 am ((PDT))

On 9/11/07, Laurie Swanson <laurie@mckinneyphoto.com> wrote:
>
> Are lamb ribs harder than pork ribs?

My personal experience? No. My chihuahuas have consumed smaller lamb ribs
before. They've never consumed much of a pork rib.

--
Kelly

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: giving up!!
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:59 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Anthony!
Don't ever give up! ^_^
What kind of dog do you have? What's his name? How often are you
trying to feed him? How long have you been feeding raw?
Inquiring minds want to know! ; )
1. Youâ™ll want to start with 2-3% of your dog's ESTIMATED IDEAL ADULT
weight. Tweak with more meat if your dog gets a bit skinny, a bit less
if your dog gets 'fluffy' over the space of a few weeks. You might
start out by weighing your dog, and weighing her meals; but most peeps
don't continue once they get more comfortable and casual about feeding
raw. Tiny, toy, pregnant, puppies or very active dogs might need as
much as 4-5% or more - very large, giant, overweight or couch potato
dogs might need less than 2% to maintain.

2. Ditch the kibble or canned â" thereâ™s been plenty of discussion on
this list about why processed foods and raw don't mix; just let it
suffice that your dog can reap the benefits of raw faster and more
completely if you donate the kibble to your local shelter asap. A
species appropriate raw whole prey model diet doesn't include kibble.
Or veggies, grains or tons of supps. Or, for the most part, ground
meats. No need for w/rec/k bones either. And, your dog may be less
motivated to make the change if he can smell that kibble!

3. Offer at least 2 meals a day to start with. (three meals for a pup
under 6 months old or for tiny dogs) Feeding once a day (or even less
often) can be a great feeding plan for a dog, but not at first; too
much new food at a meal can cause digestive upset. Feed as large a
portion as you can for the size of the meal. No little pieces or cut
up, â˜bite sizedâ™ chucks. Dogs need to tear into their food and shear
hunks off to swallow and crunch bone for physical, mental and dental
health. They donâ™t chew or eat the way we do, their digestion begins
in their stomachs, not in their mouths. So swallowing big hunks of
meat and bone is fine. If it fits, its OK. If it isnâ™t happy in the
stomach, the dog will hork it up, and re eat it, so it will go down
and stay down the 2nd or 3rd time. Its all good, thatâ™s the way dogs are.

4. Feed a little less at each meal at first than you think you should.
Too much new food over the course of a day or two can cause digestive
upset, too. Some dogs are, or learn to be, self-regulators. That
means, no matter how much food you offer them, or how often, they will
only eat as much as they need. You might just want to offer them
fattier portions of meatymeat pork, tongue, beef or veal heart with
the cap fat left on, some trim) more often, after they get used to
eating raw. Just be sure your new-to-raw dog knows that what you are
serving is real food, then, leave him to decide. OTOH, some dogs never
get full! âœKnow thy Dog.â is the motto that applies here.

5. Stay with one new protein for at least a week, maybe two. You want
the dog to be showing you that he is well adjusted to the new protein
before adding in new stuff. Take it slow; add only one new protein
every week or two.

6. You can switch to a new protein by just serving it at the next
meal, and all the meals after that for a week or so, or you can add a
bite or two of the new protein in with the 'old' protein, gradually
adding more new and less 'old' over several days, until you are
feeding all new and no 'old'. Whatever works for your own dog.

7. Boneless meals tend to produce loose, even runny poops. A judicious
amount of bone in a newbie dog's meal will tend to firm things up.
There will be less poop overall; raw is much more digestible and less
goes to waste. Poops will be less frequent also, for the same reason.
Bone adds bulk, so sloppy poops can be firmed up by some (don't go
overboard!) bone at each meal at first. Too much bone and your dog
can get âœ fossilâ poops that are dry, whitish and crumbly.

8. Chicken is recommended as the first protein to be introduced for
several reasons: its cheap, easy to obtain, easy to cut into different
dog meal sized portions, you can trim visible fat and skin if you need
to tweak, most dogs will eat it and its pretty bland. Read the labels
on the chicken before you buy; don't get any that say its enhanced
with flavoring/seasonings or salt injected. Some dogs get itchy or
vomit or get true diarrhea from enhancements. Whole chickens are the
best to start with, ime. Cut into portion sizes with kitchen shears,
as needed.

9. Some newbie dogs vomit or poop bone bits. There is an adjustment
period, so you want some bone in most meals at first, but too much
bone may not be digested and the dog will just hork it up or poop it
out. NPs, its just the dog's way of saying "Too much right now, no
thanks."

10. Some dogs will get the Bile Vomits or Bone Bile Vomits (BV or BBV)
when new to raw simply because their schedules or routines of eating
have been changed. When a dog adjusts to raw, his gastric 'juices'
become much more acid, to better digest the raw meat and bone. If he's
expecting a meal at a certain time, the 'juices start flowing' in
anticipation of getting a meal. When the meal doesn't happen, the dog
often will hork up the yellowish, foamyish bile, with or without
bones. Sometimes they hork up BBV because raw digests faster than
kibble, the tummy is empty, so it must be time to eat. NP for the dog,
he's gotten rid of the irritation. He may react as if he feels bad,
just because you are upset that he did it on your new comforter, or on
the white carpet.

11. A lot of dogs don't drink as much water or as frequently when
switched to all raw, all the time. Raw has a pretty high water content
and most dogs are forced by dry as dust kibble to over drink water to
compensate in order for their bodies to process it. If only fed raw,
you don't need to coax your dog to drink more water or even broth,
just offer plenty of fresh water, he'll drink when he needs it.

12. True diarrhea is not just loose, runny or sloppy poops. It is
frequent, liquid or watery explosions of poo that a dog cannot 'hold
back'. True diarrhea, imo, is caused by disease, parasites or
inappropriate food or non food items. The occasional loose poops, even
over a few days, from feeding a few too many boneless meals or
introing a new protein or feeding too much organ at one whack, is not
diarrhea.

13. The general rule of thumb for feeding raw is: 80% meat (muscle,
fat, skin, connective tissue) 10% EDIBLE bone (not all bone that is
served must be consumed) and 10% organs (5% of this is liver, the rest
is as much variety as you can find and afford) This is not an
immutable 'daily requirement'. Balance Over Time, over weeks and
months is one of the raw feeding mottos. ; ) If you feed true whole
prey, that is; entire animals at a time, then the meat to bone to
organ ratios are 'perfect' for that creature. Whatever parts your dog
can eat of is right for him. In the wild, wolves will eat off a large
animal carcass for days, and each wolf gets different parts. If times
are hard, they will consume the entire critter, including skin, fur,
less 'choice' parts and will even crack the hard long bones to get to
the marrow. If pickin's are plentiful, they will eat the easiest and
choice parts, and then move on. Because of variances in size, age,
personality, life experiences and dental ability, a particular dog
will be able to consume, or not: all or part or some or a little bone
from any particular animal. If you feed 'Frankenprey', that is; a
variety of protein, body parts and organs from different animals, to
simulate the whole prey experience for your dogs, you are challenged
to find enough variety in all these aspects for optimal health.

14. Organs - don't try to add a lot of organs or organ variety at
first. An easy way to satisfy the human need to "Do it all, right
now!", is to toss the gizzards and heart you get with your whole
chickens in with a bonier meal, a little piece at a meal. Heart and
gizzards are organs, but should be fed as meatymeat. The liver can be
cut up into teensy bits, and fed a tiny bit at a time with a meal.
This will allow you to feed organs, but shouldn't cause runny stools.
If it does, cut it out and freeze those parts for later down the line.
My list of organs, so I don't forget to look for variety; liver, heart
(fed as meat), cheek meat, head meat, salivary glands, feet, lips,
oxtail, spleen, tongue (usually fed as meat), weasand meat
(esophagus), tripe, stomach, sweetbread (thymus & pancreas), ears,
kidneys, brain, tripe, poultry giblets - heart, liver, gizzard and
snouts. Heads, with all the â˜stuffâ™, including eyes.
"offal" - viscera and trimmings of a butchered animal often considered
inedible by
humans.

15. SEBP - Slippery Elm Bark Powder. This is a good innocuous herb
that soothes the stomach and digestive system. If you feel you need to
intervene when your dog has loose poops or constipation, this is the
way to go. SEBP is "used to treat diarrhea, constipation, enteritis,
colitis & irritations of the stomach. Used to soothe, protect &
lubricate mucous membranes. Also, used to relieve the discomforts of
kennel cough & other types of bronchitis."
http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm
I use 1 tsp of SEBP to one ounce of ground or chopped chicken. Mix
together and shape enough meatballs for several days doses, and freeze
them. They thaw quickly. For small dogs, divide in 1/2 ounce
meatballs, for large to giant dogs, 1 ounce meatballs. Feed 1 with
each meal. Or, fast for a day, (not for pups, fast for just a meal or
two) offer plenty of water. Feed SEBP meatballs 3-4 times throughout
the day. Feed smaller, more frequent meals for several days after,
gradually increasing the meals and decreasing the SEBP meatballs. You
will often see an increase in mucousy poops with SEBP, this is part of
the way it soothes the digestive system, and the dog's body will do
the same sometimes even without SEBP.

16. You can feed pretty much any animal or animal part that your dog
will eat and that won't break the bank. : ) Common grocery store
variety suffices for some; chicken, turkey, pork, beef, lamb, fish,
rabbit. Others can obtain at a reasonable price and feed; goat,
venison, emu, ostrich, bison, beefalo, elk, mutton, mice, rats, guinea
hen, quail, bear (bear? ;) ), the list goes on and on.

17. If you must supplement, you can add Salmon or Fish Body oil,
either in caps or liquid. Make sure it doesn't have any plant based
oils, like soy, in there. You probably don't need much. Follow the
recommendations that come with the product you buy:
http://timberwolforganics.com/pet-omega-oils

http://www.icelandpure.com/salmon_oil.htm

http://www.grizzlypetproducts.com/salmon_oil/salmon_oil.html

In the case of true disease, you may need certain supps, but this is
the exception to the rule, most dogs donâ™t.

18. Lis' List; ways to creatively source cheaper variety in protein,
parts and organs. FreeCycle and craigslist are great ways to find a
free or cheap freezer to hold all the scores you'll be making!

âœ Where do you look for meat suppliers?

Permission to repost from Lis

A) Look up meat and poultry packers, processors, and distributors in
the yellow pages. You may be able to get great prices from them if
you order in bulk, and/or they may have a discount outlet that is
open to the public.
B) I get many of my best deals in Asian/Oriental markets. I've also
heard that Hispanic and Caribbean markets have great variety and
prices too.
C) You may be able to join a barter group.
D) Google breeders (i.e. rabbit, goat, lamb, etc.) who are in your
geographic area. They may have culls they want to get rid of, or
lower prices overall.
E) Look up bulk suppliers and frozen bulk foods in your yellow pages.
F) If you have a Chinatown nearby, definitely make a visit.
G) Let your friends, relatives, and neighbors know you want any
freezer burn or old meat when they clean out their freezers, and tell
them to pass the word along.
H)If you belong to a church or social group, tell those members to
mention it to their friends and relatives as well.
I) See if there are any co-ops or meat buying groups near you. Check
on Yahoo, or Google to see.
J) Try craigslist - it's amazing what you can get for free or cheap.
K) And I get meat and fish all the time (for free) through
FreeCycle. Join multiple lists if there are a few close by.
L) Some Wal-marts and some Costcos and some Samâ™s Clubs have good
deals, but you may want to make sure it's not seasoned meat.
M) Definitely watch the flyers, and you can usually see the rest
of the flyers online (the ones that don't get delivered to your house,
but are only a short drive away).
N) *** Hands down, the bulk of my best deals have been marked down
meat at regular grocery stores. They reduce it the day before it is
going to expire, and I go as early as I can to get it before it is
gone.
O) Tell friends and relatives who hunt and fish that you want first
dibs on any body parts they don't. You can probably get at least the
organs and maybe the head. Also ask them to put you in touch with
their other friends who hunt and fish.
P) A great tip I learned here a while back â" some restaurants
throw out things they don't use, like the organs that come inside
whole poultry, or raw meat that falls on the floor. See if they'll
save them for you. Find somebody who knows somebody who works there.
Q) Farmer's markets are great, but pick and choose carefully for the
best bargains. And sometimes at the end of the day some vendors will
reduce their prices, â˜cause they don't want to take it back with them.
R) Some people contact taxidermists, who have no use for the meat.
S) Find people on this list from your vicinity, and ask them where
they get their meat deals. Join other raw feeding lists (there are
many), and ask if there are other raw feeders in your area.
T) Tell your butcher you want the meat that they would normally
throw out, that is almost out of date, that people ordered and didn't
pick up, stuff that was dropped on the floor, their freezer
cleanouts, and parts that don't sell (like trachea, lungs, spleen,
etc.). Some butchers will save their trim for you (once they get to
know you). Build a relationship with them first.
U) Yes, roadkill works too (where it is legal). In some places you
can get your name on the list and get called when they have large
roadkill. (like deer)
V) You can raise your own meat/poultry if you have the room.
W) Post a message in Carnivore Feed-Supplier or CFS-Canada if you are
in North America:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CFS-Canada/
X) Speak to local farmers.
Y) Also, look for heart, tongue, and gizzards, which count as meat (as
opposed to organ) in the world of raw feeding, but are often cheaper
than other muscle meats.
Z) Find somebody who knows somebody who works at the grocery store.
They can introduce you to the meat guy, who may become more willing
to save stuff for you or reduce items about to expire, once they know
you.
AA) Check the internet. Some suppliers have affordable prices, even
after shipping costs are calculated.

Lisâ

19. Donâ™t hover! It takes some dogs a couple of days to realize that
what youâ™re giving them is real food, and theyâ™re allowed to eat it.
This process will take less time if youâ™re not standing over them in
an excess of anxiety. Some dogs react to that kind of anxiety by
acting as if they donâ™t want the food, when in reality, they are just
confused by your mixed signals. Remember, âœpeople foodâ has always
been off limits to him prior to this! Take the food to his feeding
place, put it on an old towel or rug and have a seat. Donâ™t stare, but
do hang out, reading a magazine until heâ™s done and you can let him
outside and fold up his towel.

It really isn't that hard to raw feed your dog. There's a learning
curve, definitely. But, that's what this list is here for.
Read as many daily posts as you can, read the files on the website,
and follow those links! Search in the archives for past posts with
keywords; new to raw, newbie, help, how do I start or other words that
reflect your specific search.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/?yguid=200913350
TC, and let us know how you and your dog progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Yeah he still has a lot of energy and loves to play
> still. So that's a good sign. I do agree though that
> it's more of an issue that he has to eat when I put
> the food down. Well, basically he eats pork shoulder,
> chicken thighs, and chicken breast with rib in it...
> he eats about 2 lbs a day when he does eat...how do you
> suggest I feed him as far as types of meats, and how
> much?? a rotating program would help a lot.. thank you

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Great article
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:15 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Jo!
Thats one for the 'KEEP' file. Thanks!
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I found this article yesterday while looking for information on dogs
> being carnivores to answer a yahoo question. I found it to be full of
> useful information so I thought others might like to read it.
>
> "Dogs are Carnivores" by Jeannie Thomason Copyright ï¿½ 2006
>
> http://www.dogtorj.net/id51.html
>
> Let me know what you think.
>
> Jo
>

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4.1. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:28 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/11/2007 4:29:55 PM Pacific Standard Time,
libpowers@mac.com writes:

Thanks. Yes, we do already go out in the rain to some degree, but I was just
wondering
about the dogs eating out in the yard. I have a covered front porch, I
suppose I could just
put them out there with their food and see how it goes.

Libby,

the two of my 9 dogs that eat outside do so in the rain too.. the golden will
still go out by his bush to eat, and Otis always eats in his kennel.. part of
it is covered, but most is not. Neither of them has melted from eating in
the rain yet.. lol.

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (111)
________________________________________________________________________

4.2. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:37 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Libby!
Welcome!
Here are my recommendations:
1. Youâ™ll want to start with 2-3% of your dogâ™s ESTIMATED IDEAL ADULT
weight. Tweak with more meat if your dog gets a bit skinny, a bit less
if your dog gets â˜fluffyâ™ over the space of a few weeks. You might
start out by weighing your dog, and weighing her meals; but most peeps
donâ™t continue once they get more comfortable and casual about feeding
raw. Tiny, toy, pregnant, puppies or very active dogs might need as
much as 4-5% or more - very large, giant, overweight or couch potato
dogs might need less than 2% to maintain.
2. Ditch the kibble or canned â" thereâ™s been plenty of discussion on
this list about why processed foods and raw donâ™t mix; just let it
suffice that your dog can reap the benefits of raw faster and more
completely if you donate the kibble to your local shelter asap. A
species appropriate raw whole prey model diet doesnâ™t include kibble.
Or veggies, grains or tons of supps. Or, for the most part, ground
meats. No need for w/rec/k bones either. And, your dog may be less
motivated to make the change if he can smell that kibble!
3. Offer at least 2 meals a day to start with. (three meals for a pup
under 6 months old or for tiny dogs) Feeding once a day (or even less
often) can be a great feeding plan for a dog, but not at first; too
much new food at a meal can cause digestive upset. Feed as large a
portion as you can for the size of the meal. No little pieces or cut
up, â˜bite sizedâ™ chucks. Dogs need to tear into their food and shear
hunks off to swallow and crunch bone for physical, mental and dental
health. They donâ™t chew or eat the way we do, their digestion begins
in their stomachs, not in their mouths. So swallowing big hunks of
meat and bone is fine. If it fits, its OK. If it isnâ™t happy in the
stomach, the dog will hork it up, and re eat it, so it will go down
and stay down the 2nd or 3rd time. Its all good, thatâ™s the way dogs are.
4. Feed a little less at each meal at first than you think you should.
Too much new food over the course of a day or two can cause digestive
upset, too. Some dogs are, or learn to be, self-regulators. That
means, no matter how much food you offer them, or how often, they will
only eat as much as they need. You might just want to offer them
fattier portions of meatymeat pork, tongue, beef or veal heart with
the cap fat left on, some trim) more often, after they get used to
eating raw. Just be sure your new-to-raw dog knows that what you are
serving is real food, then, leave him to decide. OTOH, some dogs never
get full! âœKnow thy Dog.â is the motto that applies here.
5. Stay with one new protein for at least a week, maybe two. You want
the dog to be showing you that he is well adjusted to the new protein
before adding in new stuff. Take it slow; add only one new protein
every week or two.
6. You can switch to a new protein by just serving it at the next
meal, and all the meals after that for a week or so, or you can add a
bite or two of the new protein in with the â˜oldâ™ protein, gradually
adding more new and less â˜oldâ™ over several days, until you are
feeding all new and no â˜oldâ™. Whatever works for your own dog.
7. Boneless meals tend to produce loose, even runny poops. A judicious
amount of bone in a newbie dogâ™s meal will tend to firm things up.
There will be less poop overall; raw is much more digestible and less
goes to waste. Poops will be less frequent also, for the same reason.
Bone adds bulk, so sloppy poops can be firmed up by some (donâ™t go
overboard!) bone at each meal at first. Too much bone and your dog
can get âœ fossilâ poops that are dry, whitish and crumbly.
8. Chicken is recommended as the first protein to be introduced for
several reasons: its cheap, easy to obtain, easy to cut into different
dog meal sized portions, you can trim visible fat and skin if you need
to tweak, most dogs will eat it and its pretty bland. Read the labels
on the chicken before you buy; donâ™t get any that say its enhanced
with flavoring/seasonings or salt injected. Some dogs get itchy or
vomit or get true diarrhea from enhancements. Whole chickens are the
best to start with, ime. Cut into portion sizes with kitchen shears,
as needed.
9. Some newbie dogs vomit or poop bone bits. There is an adjustment
period, so you want some bone in most meals at first, but too much
bone may not be digested and the dog will just hork it up or poop it
out. NPs, its just the dogâ™s way of saying âœToo much right now, no
thanks.â
10. Some dogs will get the Bile Vomits or Bone Bile Vomits (BV or BBV)
when new to raw simply because their schedules or routines of eating
have been changed. When a dog adjusts to raw, his gastric â˜juicesâ™
become much more acid, to better digest the raw meat and bone. If heâ™s
expecting a meal at a certain time, the â˜juices start flowingâ™ in
anticipation of getting a meal. When the meal doesnâ™t happen, the dog
often will hork up the yellowish, foamyish bile, with or without
bones. Sometimes they hork up BBV because raw digests faster than
kibble, the tummy is empty, so it must be time to eat. NP for the dog,
heâ™s gotten rid of the irritation. He may react as if he feels bad,
just because you are upset that he did it on your new comforter, or on
the white carpet.
11. A lot of dogs donâ™t drink as much water or as frequently when
switched to all raw, all the time. Raw has a pretty high water content
and most dogs are forced by dry as dust kibble to over drink water to
compensate in order for their bodies to process it. If only fed raw,
you donâ™t need to coax your dog to drink more water or even broth,
just offer plenty of fresh water, heâ™ll drink when he needs it.
12. True diarrhea is not just loose, runny or sloppy poops. It is
frequent, liquid or watery explosions of poo that a dog cannot â˜hold
backâ™. True diarrhea, imo, is caused by disease, parasites or
inappropriate food or non food items. The occasional loose poops, even
over a few days, from feeding a few too many boneless meals or
introing a new protein or feeding too much organ at one whack, is not
diarrhea.
13. The general rule of thumb for feeding raw is: 80% meat (muscle,
fat, skin, connective tissue) 10% EDIBLE bone (not all bone that is
served must be consumed) and 10% organs (5% of this is liver, the rest
is as much variety as you can find and afford) This is not an
immutable â˜daily requirementâ™. Balance Over Time, over weeks and
months is one of the raw feeding mottos. ; ) If you feed true whole
prey, that is; entire animals at a time, then the meat to bone to
organ ratios are â˜perfectâ™ for that creature. Whatever parts your dog
can eat of is right for him. In the wild, wolves will eat off a large
animal carcass for days, and each wolf gets different parts. If times
are hard, they will consume the entire critter, including skin, fur,
less â˜choiceâ™ parts and will even crack the hard long bones to get to
the marrow. If pickinâ™s are plentiful, they will eat the easiest and
choice parts, and then move on. Because of variances in size, age,
personality, life experiences and dental ability, a particular dog
will be able to consume, or not: all or part or some or a little bone
from any particular animal. If you feed â˜Frankenpreyâ™, that is; a
variety of protein, body parts and organs from different animals, to
simulate the whole prey experience for your dogs, you are challenged
to find enough variety in all these aspects for optimal health.
14. Organs - donâ™t try to add a lot of organs or organ variety at
first. An easy way to satisfy the human need to âœDo it all, right
now!â, is to toss the gizzards and heart you get with your whole
chickens in with a bonier meal, a little piece at a meal. Heart and
gizzards are organs, but should be fed as meatymeat. The liver can be
cut up into teensy bits, and fed a tiny bit at a time with a meal.
This will allow you to feed organs, but shouldnâ™t cause runny stools.
If it does, cut it out and freeze those parts for later down the line.
My list of organs, so I donâ™t forget to look for variety; liver, heart
(fed as meat), cheek meat, head meat, salivary glands, feet, lips,
oxtail, spleen, tongue (usually fed as meat), weasand meat
(esophagus), tripe, stomach, sweetbread (thymus & pancreas), ears,
kidneys, brain, tripe, poultry giblets - heart, liver, gizzard and
snouts. Heads, with all the â˜stuffâ™, including eyes.
âœoffalâ - viscera and trimmings of a butchered animal often considered
inedible by
humans.
15. SEBP - Slippery Elm Bark Powder. This is a good innocuous herb
that soothes the stomach and digestive system. If you feel you need to
intervene when your dog has loose poops or constipation, this is the
way to go. SEBP is âœused to treat diarrhea, constipation, enteritis,
colitis & irritations of the stomach. Used to soothe, protect &
lubricate mucous membranes. Also, used to relieve the discomforts of
kennel cough & other types of bronchitis.â
http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm
I use 1 tsp of SEBP to one ounce of ground or chopped chicken. Mix
together and shape enough meatballs for several days doses, and freeze
them. They thaw quickly. For small dogs, divide in Â½ ounce meatballs,
for large to giant dogs, 1 ounce meatballs. Feed 1 with each meal. Or,
fast for a day, (not for pups, fast for just a meal or two) offer
plenty of water. Feed SEBP meatballs 3-4 times throughout the day.
Feed smaller, more frequent meals for several days after, gradually
increasing the meals and decreasing the SEBP meatballs. You will often
see an increase in mucousy poops with SEBP, this is part of the way it
soothes the digestive system, and the dogâ™s body will do the same
sometimes even without SEBP.
16. You can feed pretty much any animal or animal part that your dog
will eat and that wonâ™t break the bank. : ) Common grocery store
variety suffices for some; chicken, turkey, pork, beef, lamb, fish,
rabbit. Others can obtain at a reasonable price and feed; goat,
venison, emu, ostrich, bison, beefalo, elk, mutton, mice, rats, guinea
hen, quail, bear (bear? ;) ), the list goes on and on.
17. If you must supplement, you can add Salmon or Fish Body oil,
either in caps or liquid. Make sure it doesnâ™t have any plant based
oils, like soy, in there. You probably donâ™t need much. Follow the
recommendations that come with the product you buy:
http://timberwolforganics.com/pet-omega-oils

http://www.icelandpure.com/salmon_oil.htm

http://www.grizzlypetproducts.com/salmon_oil/salmon_oil.html

In the case of true disease, you may need certain supps, but this is
the exception to the rule, most dogs donâ™t.
18. Lisâ™ List; ways to creatively source cheaper variety in protein,
parts and organs. FreeCycle and craigslist are great ways to find a
free or cheap freezer to hold all the scores youâ™ll be making!

âœ Where do you look for meat suppliers?
Permission to repost from Lis
A) Look up meat and poultry packers, processors, and distributors in
the yellow pages. You may be able to get great prices from them if you
order in bulk, and/or they may have a discount outlet that is open to
the public.
B) I get many of my best deals in Asian/Oriental markets. Iâ™ve also
heard that Hispanic and Caribbean markets have great variety and
prices too.
C) You may be able to join a barter group.
D) Google breeders (i.e. rabbit, goat, lamb, etc.) who are in your
geographic area. They may have culls they want to get rid of, or lower
prices overall.
E) Look up bulk suppliers and frozen bulk foods in your yellow pages.
F) If you have a Chinatown nearby, definitely make a visit.
G) Let your friends, relatives, and neighbors know you want any
freezer burn or old meat when they clean out their freezers, and tell
them to pass the word along.
H)If you belong to a church or social group, tell those members to
mention it to their friends and relatives as well.
I) See if there are any co-ops or meat buying groups near you. Check
on Yahoo, or Google to see.
J) Try craigslist - itâ™s amazing what you can get for free or cheap.
K) And I get meat and fish all the time (for free) through
FreeCycle. Join multiple lists if there are a few close by.
L) Some Wal-marts and some Costcos and some Samâ™s Clubs have good
deals, but you may want to make sure itâ™s not seasoned meat.
M) Definitely watch the flyers, and you can usually see the rest of
the flyers online (the ones that donâ™t get delivered to your house,
but are only a short drive away).
N) *** Hands down, the bulk of my best deals have been marked down
meat at regular grocery stores. They reduce it the day before it is
going to expire, and I go as early as I can to get it before it is gone.
O) Tell friends and relatives who hunt and fish that you want first
dibs on any body parts they donâ™t. You can probably get at least the
organs and maybe the head. Also ask them to put you in touch with
their other friends who hunt and fish.
P) A great tip I learned here a while back â" some restaurants throw
out things they donâ™t use, like the organs that come inside whole
poultry, or raw meat that falls on the floor. See if theyâ™ll save them
for you. Find somebody who knows somebody who works there.
Q) Farmerâ™s markets are great, but pick and choose carefully for the
best bargains. And sometimes at the end of the day some vendors will
reduce their prices, â˜cause they donâ™t want to take it back with them.
R) Some people contact taxidermists, who have no use for the meat.
S) Find people on this list from your vicinity, and ask them where
they get their meat deals. Join other raw feeding lists (there are
many), and ask if there are other raw feeders in your area.
T) Tell your butcher you want the meat that they would normally throw
out, that is almost out of date, that people ordered and didnâ™t pick
up, stuff that was dropped on the floor, their freezer cleanouts, and
parts that donâ™t sell (like trachea, lungs, spleen, etc.). Some
butchers will save their trim for you (once they get to know you).
Build a relationship with them first.
U) Yes, roadkill works too (where it is legal). In some places you can
get your name on the list and get called when they have large
roadkill. (like deer)
V) You can raise your own meat/poultry if you have the room.
W) Post a message in Carnivore Feed-Supplier or CFS-Canada if you are
in North America:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CFS-Canada/
X) Speak to local farmers.
Y) Also, look for heart, tongue, and gizzards, which count as meat (as
opposed to organ) in the world of raw feeding, but are often cheaper
than other muscle meats.
Z) Find somebody who knows somebody who works at the grocery store.
They can introduce you to the meat guy, who may become more willing to
save stuff for you or reduce items about to expire, once they know you.
AA) Check the internet. Some suppliers have affordable prices, even
after shipping costs are calculated.

Lisâ

It really isnâ™t that hard to raw feed your dog. Thereâ™s a learning
curve, definitely. But, thatâ™s what this list is here for.
Read as many daily posts as you can, read the files on the website,
and follow those links! Search in the archives for past posts with
keywords; new to raw, newbie, help, how do I start or other words that
reflect your specific search.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/?yguid=200913350
TC, and let us know how you and your dog progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I'm new to the forum. I have some history with feeding raw. <snip>
It was
> pretty expensive feeding a giant and a large dog chicken backs and
necks, how much
> more will it be costly to feed whole chickens?
>
> AACK! I love my dogs, but they are not my whole life! Does anyone
do this who has
> figured out how to bring it into their life?
<snip>
> How do you do this and not have it cost so much? And finlly, where
do you get a variety if
> meat?
>
> Thanks. I'd love to feed my dogs the best diet, because one suffers
terribly from allergies,
> and the other (younger) seems to be developing them.
>
> Libby

Messages in this topic (111)
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5a. Introducing myself and Zachary
Posted by: "Mia-Shay Emery" briarbaby_04@yahoo.com briarbaby_04
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:40 pm ((PDT))

< Mia, welcome to our group! >

Thank you! happy to be here!

< How did you find out what was in the k**ble? >

Actually I had a link come up in my g-mail from a man who was trying to sell a book of dog food recipes. Out of curiosity I checked it out, needless to say I was shocked when I read what he said was in commercial food. I also didn't believe it because, hey, he was trying to sell something, and people will say anything to sell their product. Sooo.... I did some investigating and discovered that things were WORSE than what he had posted on his site.

< How did you find out about rawfeeding? >

I actually come from a long line of professional dog breeders, so I had heard many discussions on all types of feeding growing up. After finding out what was in Zacharys k**ble I did some research and decided that raw was not just the safest but the only sensible way to feed him so raw it is!

Mia

---------------------------------
Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV.

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Messages in this topic (7)
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6a. My senior dog has been on raw a week
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:40 pm ((PDT))

I finally changed my last dog to raw. It's been a week and he's doing
so well. He's not limping anymore (which is so surprising) and his eyes
are much clearer. He's about 13 years old. I want to thank everyone on
this list for having answered so many of my questions and helping me to
understand this better method of feeding. I am so happy with my
little "carnivores."

BTW, I also bought a chest freezer for all four dogs' meat, ta da!
Today I went on a meat buying spree :)! I can now order Tripe, yipee!!!

Messages in this topic (2)
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6b. Re: My senior dog has been on raw a week
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:56 pm ((PDT))

Hi!
KEWL! ^_^

Dogs *need* their own freezers!

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I finally changed my last dog to raw. It's been a week and he's doing
> so well. He's not limping anymore (which is so surprising) and his eyes
> are much clearer. He's about 13 years old. I want to thank everyone on
> this list for having answered so many of my questions and helping me to
> understand this better method of feeding. I am so happy with my
> little "carnivores."
>
> BTW, I also bought a chest freezer for all four dogs' meat, ta da!
> Today I went on a meat buying spree :)! I can now order Tripe, yippee!!!
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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7. Re: Don't know if I had a chance to introduce myself and I will
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:41 pm ((PDT))

Oops, well--in that case, go to rawfed.com, click on How Do I Feed Raw?,
then click on Rawfed Dogs, then click on Recipes. :)

Lynda

In a message dated 9/11/2007 8:58:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
_"Bumble1994@aol.com"_ (http://www.serve.com/BatonRouge/taurine_chmr.htm) writes:

In a message dated 9/11/2007 5:17:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
"dupontracefan" writes:

you just don't know what to do. I have read websites that say they are raw
but yet they have recipes in the files in their groups that they cook
portions (rice, veggie's, etc.)

****
Hi, Diane,

This list has a website with recipes, too--you're gonna love them. :)

(Click on pix to enlarge)

Lynda

__http://rawfed.http://rawhttp:_ (http://rawfed.com/links.html_)
(_http://rawfed.http://rawhttp_ (http://rawfed.com/links.html) )

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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8a. chicken pieces...too small??
Posted by: "Cdandp2@aol.com" Cdandp2@aol.com cdandp
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:41 pm ((PDT))

I just purchased two whole organic free range chickens from Whole Foods on
sale for $1.99 lb. but I asked them to cut it into a few large pieces and
when I got home it's in little chunks (all 8 lbs!!!!).

Now I'm worried if the pieces are too small for my dog (he's 25 lb cocker
spaniel on raw for about 3 maybe going on 4 months now). He's doing great.
Mostly chews. I tried a little chicken wind end carefully supervised and he
chewed and crunched it before swallowing...BUT he did swallow it whole. He
doesn't tear and once almost choked on a big chunk of liver (now I cut up the
organ meats without bones).

Any advice? I don't eat meat myself and would hate to toss this out.

Carol for Spencer (the heartworm guy...doing better than can be expected and
enjoying his meats)

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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Messages in this topic (4)
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8b. Re: chicken pieces...too small??
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:26 pm ((PDT))

Anything cut up into little chunks is too small...but if he chewed, crunched
and swallowed that's totally normal for a carnivore who doesn't need to chew
at all.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: <Cdandp2@aol.com>

> I just purchased two whole organic free range chickens from Whole Foods on
> sale for $1.99 lb. but I asked them to cut it into a few large pieces and
> when I got home it's in little chunks (all 8 lbs!!!!).
>
> Now I'm worried if the pieces are too small for my dog (he's 25 lb cocker
> spaniel on raw for about 3 maybe going on 4 months now). He's doing
great.
> Mostly chews. I tried a little chicken wind end carefully supervised and
he
> chewed and crunched it before swallowing...BUT he did swallow it whole.
He
> doesn't tear and once almost choked on a big chunk of liver (now I cut up
the
> organ meats without bones).

Messages in this topic (4)
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8c. Re: chicken pieces...too small??
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:26 pm ((PDT))

I would probably call the store and explain the situation and see if
you can return it. IME, they have very good customer service and I
doubt they would say no. Or just take it back--in person might even be
better. Tell them you're sorry you weren't more specific, but you
really can't use it and would like to exchange it.

Or, sell it to someone with cats?

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Cdandp2@... wrote:
>
> I just purchased two whole organic free range chickens from Whole
Foods on
> sale for $1.99 lb. but I asked them to cut it into a few large
pieces and
> when I got home it's in little chunks (all 8 lbs!!!!).
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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8d. Re: chicken pieces...too small??
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2007 11:06 pm ((PDT))

On Sep 11, 2007, at 7:50 PM, Cdandp2@aol.com wrote:

> I just purchased two whole organic free range chickens from Whole
> Foods on
> sale for $1.99 lb. but I asked them to cut it into a few large
> pieces and
> when I got home it's in little chunks (all 8 lbs!!!!).
>
> Now I'm worried if the pieces are too small for my dog (he's 25 lb
> cocker
> spaniel on raw for about 3 maybe going on 4 months now). He's
> doing great.
> Mostly chews. I tried a little chicken wind end carefully
> supervised and he
> chewed and crunched it before swallowing...BUT he did swallow it
> whole. He
> doesn't tear and once almost choked on a big chunk of liver (now I
> cut up the
> organ meats without bones).
>
> Any advice? I don't eat meat myself and would hate to toss this out.

Do as you're doing, Carol. Watch him and make sure each piece gets
swallowed. Go ahead and hand him each one if you think it helps. You
can untrain this later if need be; my dog eats every which way. If he
should gag and not be able to move it, reach in and either grab it or
push it down. But this won't happen:)

You are doing so well with Spencer it is absolutely inspiring!

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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9a. Re: Don't know if I had a chance to introduce myself and I will shor
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:08 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Diane!
Save the money you're spending on supps, yogurt and what
your planning to spend on a grinder and use it to buy good ole raw
meat 'n bones!
Thats pretty much all your dog needs to be healthy.
My recommendations to start raw feeding:
1. Youâ™ll want to start with 2-3% of your dogâ™s ESTIMATED IDEAL ADULT
weight. Tweak with more meat if your dog gets a bit skinny, a bit less
if your dog gets â˜fluffyâ™ over the space of a few weeks. You might
start out by weighing your dog, and weighing her meals; but most peeps
donâ™t continue once they get more comfortable and casual about feeding
raw. Tiny, toy, pregnant, puppies or very active dogs might need as
much as 4-5% or more - very large, giant, overweight or couch potato
dogs might need less than 2% to maintain.
2. Ditch the kibble or canned â" thereâ™s been plenty of discussion on
this list about why processed foods and raw donâ™t mix; just let it
suffice that your dog can reap the benefits of raw faster and more
completely if you donate the kibble to your local shelter asap. A
species appropriate raw whole prey model diet doesnâ™t include kibble.
Or veggies, grains or tons of supps. Or, for the most part, ground
meats. No need for w/rec/k bones either. And, your dog may be less
motivated to make the change if he can smell that kibble!
3. Offer at least 2 meals a day to start with. (three meals for a pup
under 6 months old or for tiny dogs) Feeding once a day (or even less
often) can be a great feeding plan for a dog, but not at first; too
much new food at a meal can cause digestive upset. Feed as large a
portion as you can for the size of the meal. No little pieces or cut
up, â˜bite sizedâ™ chucks. Dogs need to tear into their food and shear
hunks off to swallow and crunch bone for physical, mental and dental
health. They donâ™t chew or eat the way we do, their digestion begins
in their stomachs, not in their mouths. So swallowing big hunks of
meat and bone is fine. If it fits, its OK. If it isnâ™t happy in the
stomach, the dog will hork it up, and re eat it, so it will go down
and stay down the 2nd or 3rd time. Its all good, thatâ™s the way dogs are.
4. Feed a little less at each meal at first than you think you should.
Too much new food over the course of a day or two can cause digestive
upset, too. Some dogs are, or learn to be, self-regulators. That
means, no matter how much food you offer them, or how often, they will
only eat as much as they need. You might just want to offer them
fattier portions of meatymeat pork, tongue, beef or veal heart with
the cap fat left on, some trim) more often, after they get used to
eating raw. Just be sure your new-to-raw dog knows that what you are
serving is real food, then, leave him to decide. OTOH, some dogs never
get full! âœKnow thy Dog.â is the motto that applies here.
5. Stay with one new protein for at least a week, maybe two. You want
the dog to be showing you that he is well adjusted to the new protein
before adding in new stuff. Take it slow; add only one new protein
every week or two.
6. You can switch to a new protein by just serving it at the next
meal, and all the meals after that for a week or so, or you can add a
bite or two of the new protein in with the â˜oldâ™ protein, gradually
adding more new and less â˜oldâ™ over several days, until you are
feeding all new and no â˜oldâ™. Whatever works for your own dog.
7. Boneless meals tend to produce loose, even runny poops. A judicious
amount of bone in a newbie dogâ™s meal will tend to firm things up.
There will be less poop overall; raw is much more digestible and less
goes to waste. Poops will be less frequent also, for the same reason.
Bone adds bulk, so sloppy poops can be firmed up by some (donâ™t go
overboard!) bone at each meal at first. Too much bone and your dog
can get âœ fossilâ poops that are dry, whitish and crumbly.
8. Chicken is recommended as the first protein to be introduced for
several reasons: its cheap, easy to obtain, easy to cut into different
dog meal sized portions, you can trim visible fat and skin if you need
to tweak, most dogs will eat it and its pretty bland. Read the labels
on the chicken before you buy; donâ™t get any that say its enhanced
with flavoring/seasonings or salt injected. Some dogs get itchy or
vomit or get true diarrhea from enhancements. Whole chickens are the
best to start with, ime. Cut into portion sizes with kitchen shears,
as needed.
9. Some newbie dogs vomit or poop bone bits. There is an adjustment
period, so you want some bone in most meals at first, but too much
bone may not be digested and the dog will just hork it up or poop it
out. NPs, its just the dogâ™s way of saying âœToo much right now, no
thanks.â
10. Some dogs will get the Bile Vomits or Bone Bile Vomits (BV or BBV)
when new to raw simply because their schedules or routines of eating
have been changed. When a dog adjusts to raw, his gastric â˜juicesâ™
become much more acid, to better digest the raw meat and bone. If heâ™s
expecting a meal at a certain time, the â˜juices start flowingâ™ in
anticipation of getting a meal. When the meal doesnâ™t happen, the dog
often will hork up the yellowish, foamyish bile, with or without
bones. Sometimes they hork up BBV because raw digests faster than
kibble, the tummy is empty, so it must be time to eat. NP for the dog,
heâ™s gotten rid of the irritation. He may react as if he feels bad,
just because you are upset that he did it on your new comforter, or on
the white carpet.
11. A lot of dogs donâ™t drink as much water or as frequently when
switched to all raw, all the time. Raw has a pretty high water content
and most dogs are forced by dry as dust kibble to over drink water to
compensate in order for their bodies to process it. If only fed raw,
you donâ™t need to coax your dog to drink more water or even broth,
just offer plenty of fresh water, heâ™ll drink when he needs it.
12. True diarrhea is not just loose, runny or sloppy poops. It is
frequent, liquid or watery explosions of poo that a dog cannot â˜hold
backâ™. True diarrhea, imo, is caused by disease, parasites or
inappropriate food or non food items. The occasional loose poops, even
over a few days, from feeding a few too many boneless meals or
introing a new protein or feeding too much organ at one whack, is not
diarrhea.
13. The general rule of thumb for feeding raw is: 80% meat (muscle,
fat, skin, connective tissue) 10% EDIBLE bone (not all bone that is
served must be consumed) and 10% organs (5% of this is liver, the rest
is as much variety as you can find and afford) This is not an
immutable â˜daily requirementâ™. Balance Over Time, over weeks and
months is one of the raw feeding mottos. ; ) If you feed true whole
prey, that is; entire animals at a time, then the meat to bone to
organ ratios are â˜perfectâ™ for that creature. Whatever parts your dog
can eat of is right for him. In the wild, wolves will eat off a large
animal carcass for days, and each wolf gets different parts. If times
are hard, they will consume the entire critter, including skin, fur,
less â˜choiceâ™ parts and will even crack the hard long bones to get to
the marrow. If pickinâ™s are plentiful, they will eat the easiest and
choice parts, and then move on. Because of variances in size, age,
personality, life experiences and dental ability, a particular dog
will be able to consume, or not: all or part or some or a little bone
from any particular animal. If you feed â˜Frankenpreyâ™, that is; a
variety of protein, body parts and organs from different animals, to
simulate the whole prey experience for your dogs, you are challenged
to find enough variety in all these aspects for optimal health.
14. Organs - donâ™t try to add a lot of organs or organ variety at
first. An easy way to satisfy the human need to âœDo it all, right
now!â, is to toss the gizzards and heart you get with your whole
chickens in with a bonier meal, a little piece at a meal. Heart and
gizzards are organs, but should be fed as meatymeat. The liver can be
cut up into teensy bits, and fed a tiny bit at a time with a meal.
This will allow you to feed organs, but shouldnâ™t cause runny stools.
If it does, cut it out and freeze those parts for later down the line.
My list of organs, so I donâ™t forget to look for variety; liver, heart
(fed as meat), cheek meat, head meat, salivary glands, feet, lips,
oxtail, spleen, tongue (usually fed as meat), weasand meat
(esophagus), tripe, stomach, sweetbread (thymus & pancreas), ears,
kidneys, brain, tripe, poultry giblets - heart, liver, gizzard and
snouts. Heads, with all the â˜stuffâ™, including eyes.
âœoffalâ - viscera and trimmings of a butchered animal often considered
inedible by
humans.
15. SEBP - Slippery Elm Bark Powder. This is a good innocuous herb
that soothes the stomach and digestive system. If you feel you need to
intervene when your dog has loose poops or constipation, this is the
way to go. SEBP is âœused to treat diarrhea, constipation, enteritis,
colitis & irritations of the stomach. Used to soothe, protect &
lubricate mucous membranes. Also, used to relieve the discomforts of
kennel cough & other types of bronchitis.â
http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm
I use 1 tsp of SEBP to one ounce of ground or chopped chicken. Mix
together and shape enough meatballs for several days doses, and freeze
them. They thaw quickly. For small dogs, divide in Â½ ounce meatballs,
for large to giant dogs, 1 ounce meatballs. Feed 1 with each meal. Or,
fast for a day, (not for pups, fast for just a meal or two) offer
plenty of water. Feed SEBP meatballs 3-4 times throughout the day.
Feed smaller, more frequent meals for several days after, gradually
increasing the meals and decreasing the SEBP meatballs. You will often
see an increase in mucousy poops with SEBP, this is part of the way it
soothes the digestive system, and the dogâ™s body will do the same
sometimes even without SEBP.
16. You can feed pretty much any animal or animal part that your dog
will eat and that wonâ™t break the bank. : ) Common grocery store
variety suffices for some; chicken, turkey, pork, beef, lamb, fish,
rabbit. Others can obtain at a reasonable price and feed; goat,
venison, emu, ostrich, bison, beefalo, elk, mutton, mice, rats, guinea
hen, quail, bear (bear? ;) ), the list goes on and on.
17. If you must supplement, you can add Salmon or Fish Body oil,
either in caps or liquid. Make sure it doesnâ™t have any plant based
oils, like soy, in there. You probably donâ™t need much. Follow the
recommendations that come with the product you buy:
http://timberwolforganics.com/pet-omega-oils

http://www.icelandpure.com/salmon_oil.htm

http://www.grizzlypetproducts.com/salmon_oil/salmon_oil.html

Lisâ

> Thanks to all that responded. I did cut up a few of them and took out
> the bone, added his yogurt, vitamins and supplements and he loved them
> so I will just keep an eye on him today for some stool changes.
<snip>
If allowed about how much
> for his age should I give, haven't weighed him in a few weeks but he
> was 38 lbs about 2 weeks ago. Thanks,
> Diane

Messages in this topic (9)
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10. Introduction and some questions.
Posted by: "rareimer1979" rareimer@gmail.com rareimer1979
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:21 pm ((PDT))

Hi, my name is Robyn, and this list is great! I've been reading for a
couple weeks now, trying to get a feel for things. I have an 8-week
old pug puppy (Ozzy) coming at the end of September, and I've already
pretty much decided to feed him raw, but I still have some questions.
(I've been trying to switch over my cats in the meantime for some
practice. One of them has made the switch without ever looking back,
the other is proving to be very stubborn indeed.)

How much can I expect a pug puppy to eat? I know 2-3% of expected
adult body weight, so if a pug is approx. 14-18 lbs, that means this
little guy should be given about 1/2 lb. a day at the most...does this
sound about right? I'm trying to visualize how much food that
translates to...would it be one chicken thigh? Two? Maybe a
drumstick? Half a chicken breast with bone? So if I am spreading this
over 2-3 meals a day, what would a typical meal look like? I know
lots of people say to just toss a whole big chunk and let him eat as
much as he likes, but from what I hear of pugs, they will never stop
eating on their own! I just want to make sure I'm feeding enough,
because I'm not sure this little guy will be able to control his appetite.

Any experience from anyone who has raw-fed pugs...what kind of foods
did they like, how much, etc...what kinds of things should I have on
hand for him when he gets here?

I guess I'm a little nervous, since with my cats, one seems to eat
alot but still seems hungry all the time, and the other one doesn't
seem to eat nearly enough...so I'm nervous about making sure they get
enough food. It seems like alot of people here have really big dogs,
so I'm trying to get a feel for what a smaller dog like a pug would be
like feeding-wise.

Messages in this topic (1)
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11a. Re: Is supervision required?
Posted by: "jmwise80" jmwise80@yahoo.com jmwise80
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:22 pm ((PDT))

> I consider meal monitoring part of basic dog ownership responsibility.
> Chris O
>

*******That, and I just think its cool to watch them eat like this.
Meal time is just as exciting as training time, IMO.

Michael Wise

Messages in this topic (7)
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11b. Re: Is supervision required?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:17 pm ((PDT))

"jmwise80" <jmwise80@...> wrote:
That, and I just think its cool to watch them eat like this.
> Meal time is just as exciting as training time, IMO.
*****
It IS cool! It is endlessly entertaining.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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12a. Re: Grass Eating
Posted by: "jmwise80" jmwise80@yahoo.com jmwise80
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:25 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Roxane" <roxanegraham@...> wrote:
>
> I am interested in what this group thinks about dogs that eat grass,
> why do you think they eat it?
>
> Roxane
>

When my dogs stomach hurts he will eat any grass that he can find as
fast as he can.

When he just feels like eating grass he gets picky and starts looking
for long green blades. Preferably bermuda. Moooooo!

Michael Wise

Messages in this topic (9)
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12b. Re: Grass Eating
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:26 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Roxanne!
Because they can.....
Some past responses from the archives;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/msearch?query=why+do+dogs+eat+grass&submit=Search&charset=ISO-8859-1
http://tinyurl.com/yvj4cr

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/msearch?query=why+do+dogs+eat+grass&submit=Search&charset=ISO-8859-1
http://tinyurl.com/2es6cw
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I am interested in what this group thinks about dogs that eat grass,
> why do you think they eat it?
>
> Roxane
>

Messages in this topic (9)
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12c. Re: Grass Eating
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:47 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Roxane" <roxanegraham@...> wrote:
>
> I am interested in what this group thinks about dogs that eat grass,
> why do you think they eat it?
*****
Tastes good.
Feels good going down.
Feels good coming back up.
Something on the grass tastes good.
Iffy tummy.
Anxiety.
Boredom.
All of the above.
None of the above.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
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12d. Re: Grass Eating
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:24 pm ((PDT))

"jmwise80" <jmwise80@...> wrote:
> When he just feels like eating grass he gets picky and starts looking
> for long green blades. Preferably bermuda. Moooooo!
*****
Bermuda grass is pretty much the only green left in my yard now and my
dogs do enjoy that stuff. They potty in the baryard then hustle their
furry butts into the backyard for bermuda grass. They don't hork it
up, mostly it gets pooped out, sometimes it just somehow goes away.

Moooooo indeed!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
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13a. Re: Grinder
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:33 pm ((PDT))

"geraldinebutterfield" <gbutterflied@...> wrote:
>
> I know feeding whole, bone and all is the best way to feed. However,
> because we travel so much I can't always give my Brandy the whole
> piece to take her time with.
*****
This may well be but the answer is not grinding. The answer is as
simple as changing your feeding style. You don't have to feed raw
meaty bones every meal and you don't have to feed bone every meal and
for that matter your dog can most likely do quite well on less bone
than you are currently feeding her.

Some meals, when she has time, she gets meaty bones. And some meals
are meat, sans bone. And some meals could be a sort of compromise of
easy-peasy meaty bones (like chicken), or a pile of meat plus a chicken
back. That's an easy solution if there ever was one.

Don't make easy things hard.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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14a. Re: raw feeding for 2 years* update on Molly - pancreatitis-prone di
Posted by: "Trish" trishwelham@hotmail.com trishwelham
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:49 am ((PDT))

-
> I am so sorry to read of Molly's illness.
>
> I have brought too many of my guys home to spend a last few nights
> with the family, before having to let them go.

> My husband came home on hospice care for his last few months, he died
> of prostate cancer at home, Dec. 2004.
>
> Just know that caring for them, and knowing when it is time to let
> them go, is the last, best thing you can do for your loved ones.

Thank you so much for sharing your experiences, Giselle. And I am so
sorry for your losses.

We all visited with her today for a couple of hours and she had really
improved from yesterday. She was bloated and is still on IV. She was
very interested in the Vet's cat which I think is a good sign! :-)

We will get blood results tomorrow and that will really tell us where
she's at. If by some miracle she gets well and comes home, I just
don't know what we'll do about her diet. I will definitely do some
more research, but if anyone has any experience with an extreme case
of pancreatitis and recovery it would be helpful.

Thank you all for the kind thoughts, Trish

Messages in this topic (12)
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Feed Pets Raw Food

Wednesday, September 12, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12030

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