[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11966

There are 19 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: apple cider vinegar & digestive enzymes
From: costrowski75
1b. Re: apple cider vinegar & digestive enzymes
From: Sandee Lee

2a. Re: Lily Update
From: Giselle
2b. Re: Lily Update
From: Laurie Swanson
2c. Re: Lily Update
From: Sandee Lee

3a. slippery elm questions
From: Katie
3b. Re: slippery elm questions
From: Giselle

4a. possible allergies?
From: som622
4b. Re: possible allergies?
From: Laurie Swanson
4c. Re: possible allergies?
From: Morledzep@aol.com
4d. Re: possible allergies?
From: Giselle

5a. Re: organ meats
From: Morledzep@aol.com

6a. Leather poop
From: Joe Rodriguez
6b. Re: Leather poop
From: john payne

7a. Raw feeding
From: kreepelladeville
7b. Re: Raw feeding
From: Giselle
7c. Re: bacteria/e.coli (was: Raw feeding)
From: Laurie Swanson
7d. my beagle is vomiting and not eating - lethargic
From: Christina Veit
7e. Re: Raw feeding
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

Messages
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1a. Re: apple cider vinegar & digestive enzymes
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:22 pm ((PDT))

Ivette Casiano <ivettecasiano@...> wrote:
> Nugget no longer has loose poop, He's been stable and doing well
for the last 3 weeks. He's eaten mostly chicken, and within the past
week, I included beef hearts, did well with that, then a little
liver, did well with that too.
*****
Good show.

I never said anything about monitoring his water, hmmm? where did
that come from?
*****
Most people who choose to supplement with vinegar seem to so via the
water dish. My apologies if you had other intentions.

> Since I started raw I've been giving him digestive enzymes
(about 3 months). Now that he's doing so well, I was just wondering
if I can decrease or stop the digestive enzymes.
> Giselle recommended weaning him gradually from the enzymes.
What do you think?
*****
Based on his current status, they certainly don't see necessary now.
If you think a gradual reduction is the best way to do it, do it. No
question you're in good hands with Giselle.

Please excuse my lack of knowledge, but why did you have him on DE
for three months?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
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1b. Re: apple cider vinegar & digestive enzymes
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:57 pm ((PDT))

Stool variations are normal in a raw diet and do not necessitate the
addition of digestive enzymes every time you think they may have loose poop!
He is a carnivore and has all of the enzymes necessary for proper digestion
of the food his body was designed for.

Save the supplements for when they are absolutely necessary. Changing
protein sources doesn't qualify.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Ivette Casiano" <ivettecasiano@yahoo.com>
>
> Thanks Giselle, I like simple. I'd like to wean him from the digestive
enzymes since he seems to be doing so well. I've already introduced lamb,
beef hearts, chicken gizzards and a little beef liver and all goes well. He
so loves his chicken, it's his favorite. I have some pork in the fridge,
that's next. I've read here that some dogs get loose poop from pork so I'll
use the digestive enzymes when I feed that.

Messages in this topic (10)
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2a. Re: Lily Update
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:29 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Carrie!
I'm so glad you posted to let us know how well Lily is doing!

Have you tried small fish, like frozen whole sardines? I think OP have
posted about buying them when they're sold as bait. You can get mice,
chicks, rabbit and quail in different sizes to suit tiny dogs from;
http://www.rodentpro.com/products.asp Organs, soft bones and meat
wrapped up in a tidy, species appropriate package. ;)

Tiny dogs need equivalent prey animals, at least part of the time. You
could also try buying Game Hens at the grocery market, which are just
chickens slaughtered at a younger age. They have smaller parts and
smaller, softer bones.

Bone only needs to be about 10% of the diet, edible bone that is. So,
feeding plenty of boneless meals is OK.

Wild sources of prey are great, the price is right and someone gets
the activity of hunting it. But, you do want to freeze the parts solid
for a week or two before feeding, to kill off possible parasites.

Don't overindulge her on the organs when you get them. 5% liver, and
5% other organs in the total diet, is what's recommended. Try for a
wide variety of organs, 'trim', 'offal' and body parts.

When feeding, its often good to feed with the bone in, even if you
know that the bone won't be eaten. This can reduce the instances of
Lily trying swallow whole hunks of boneless meat. She may surprise
you, and be able to nibble the cartilage off the ends of the bones,
and even be happy to gnaw on the bone quietly for quite a while,
satisfying the puppy need to chew and involve her more physically,
mentally and dentally with her food. The more she gnaws, the more her
jaw strength and body strength will build. If she hasn't started yet
to get her adult teeth in, she will! At that age, a gnawing pup is a
happy pup!

I can't help you with the human part of the equation. Maybe the hubby
will 'buy in' to the program once you start feeding the meats he has
hunted! Just tell him Lily is really a 'pocket wolf' masquerading as a
dog!

I don't think that Lily really 'craves' the cat food. The lure here is
that it is the cat's food, the cat wants it and you don't want her to
have it, so Lily just naturally wants it. Also, dog's are supremely
opportunistic, most will scavenge pretty much anything, edible or not,
especially as teething pups. Keep it up high, where the cat can jump
up to it, and she can't. Or, keep it behind a baby gate that the cat
can jump over and she can't. Or, if your cat is elderly, make a small
hole in a plastic baby gate so the cat can squeeze through and Lily
can't. Same with the litter box. ; ) Dogs love cat 'tootsie rolls',
especially with 'sprinkles'.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hi,
> I wanted to give a Lily update. Lily is a Papillon puppy. She
will be 16 weeks old on Wednesday. She has been raw fed since I
brought her home from the breeder at 7 weeks.
<snip>
> I feed her 3 times a day. One problem that I have is that if she
gets a chance, she will make a beeline for the cat's ki##le, (I'm
working on the cat, but as you all know, cats have their own agenda).
Why does she crave the cat's food? What am I missing in her diet?
> Carrie K
>
>
> WinenCandy

Messages in this topic (4)
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2b. Re: Lily Update
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:43 pm ((PDT))

Hi Carrie,

Great to hear your new pup is doing well! I don't know that the fact
she'll eat the cat's kibble is indicative that she is missing anything
in her diet. I think dogs are sort of programmed to eat whatever's
easily available (they never know when food will be available again),
and the kibble probably has a strong odor/flavor and has addictive
grains or other things in it. Can you put it out of reach of the dog
(assuming there's somewhere up higher that the cat can get to?)?

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Carrie Kelly <winencandy@...> wrote:

One problem that I have is that if she gets a chance, she will make a
beeline for the cat's ki##le, (I'm working on the cat, but as you all
know, cats have their own adjenda). Why does she crave the cat's
food? What am I missing in her diet?

Messages in this topic (4)
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2c. Re: Lily Update
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:52 pm ((PDT))

Nothing missing. It smells good, tastes good and is addictive. Kinda like
offering me a plateful of donuts next to a bowlful of broccoli! :))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Carrie Kelly" <winencandy@yahoo.ca>
> I feed her 3 times a day. One problem that I have is that if she gets a
chance, she will make a beeline for the cat's ki##le, (I'm working on the
cat, but as you all know, cats have their own adjenda). Why does she crave
the cat's food? What am I missing in her diet?

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. slippery elm questions
Posted by: "Katie" kcrockett@mac.com kcrockettla7
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:39 pm ((PDT))

OK - Clancy (one of my goldens) has had dark black watery (almost greasy looking) poop -
although I guess it's really NOT poop, as it's liquid.

Other than that, he acts fine. A few minutes before he has this expulsion of liquid, he
refuses food (i'm a dog trainer, and i use him as a demo dog, so he gets little treats
throughout the day) and acts frantic. Then he has a liquid explosion and is fine.

As he is acting normal, I'm guessing *I* am the problem - either fed him too much the night
before or too much of new stuff (he doesn't ahve this constantly - it's on and off)

I was going to try slippery elm bark . . . but could only find it in capsules, not powder, which
is what I keep seeing referred to in the archives. Can I use the capsules? It says they are 370
mg - the recommended dose (which is for people) is 4 capsules. ANyone know how much a
75 pound dog can have?

...katie

Sorry if this is redundant - i tried to search the archives, but haven't yet found what i'm
looking for.

Messages in this topic (2)
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3b. Re: slippery elm questions
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:33 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Katie!
This is the link I usually post, if that's what you're
looking for; http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm
"Common Uses: Traditionally used to treat diarrhea, constipation,
enteritis, colitis & irritations of the stomach. Used to soothe,
protect & lubricate mucous membranes. Also, used to relieve the
discomforts of kennel cough & other types of bronchitis."
I've never used the caps, don't know how the measurement of a cap
would compare to my recommendation to feed 1/2 tsp to a small dog or 1
tsp to a large dog. You could dump the caps out into a measuring spoon
and see. I generally recommend that 1 tsp be mixed with 1 ounce of
ground or chopped chicken and made into a meatball for a large dog, or
made into 2 meatballs for a small dog. You can make a bunch up at a
time, and freeze some. Feed one meatball before each meal, and between
meals or 3-4 times a day, if fasting. You can also feed it sprinkled
over his regular meal, or in water or broth if he will drink it. This
isn't something that will 'stop him up' or make the watery poops
firm, it will soothe his digestive system, and maybe the poops will be
more mucousy than watery.

I'd look at a couple things to solve the problem;
1) Stress, or excitement. What is different about NOW, what has
changed in his lifestyle; new environments, new routines, new people,
new places, new dogs, new expectations, new activity levels? If so,
try to reduce his stress or anxiety as much as possible.

2) Food, water or treats. Again, what has changed since the problem
started; new food, different food, fattier food, food from a different
source, new treats, more treats, treats from new places, OP caring for
him. What foods or treats do OP give him when they are caring for him?
Is he drinking out of puddles or lakes on walks? Some dogs are more
sensitive to food changes than others. I often use chopped up raw
gizzards, and hearts as treats when I'm at home, but will use anything
my dog loves that is soft and can be made into tiny bits. But Bea
isn't much affected by dietary changes, even 'junk food'.

3) Then there is the scavenger possibility. Some dogs will eat
anything dead and rotten without any ill effects. Other dogs can be
seriously affected. Is your dog killing critters and eating them, or
eating critters that OD kill? Are your dogs caching 'leftover' food at
mealtimes, and digging it up another day to eat?

I want to ask, too, how long has he had this problem, how frequently,
does it occur in any particular situations or time of the day/night?
Does he always have this watery poop now, or only sometimes? What does
it look like the rest of the time?

If you can't get this resolved on your own within a few days, you
might want to get the vet to check for parasites, giardia or some
health condition.
TC, let us know what you find out and post updates on how Clancy does.
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> OK - Clancy (one of my Goldens) has had dark black watery (almost
greasy looking) poop -
> although I guess it's really NOT poop, as it's liquid.
>
> Other than that, he acts fine. A few minutes before he has this
expulsion of liquid, he
> refuses food (I'm a dog trainer, and I use him as a demo dog, so he
gets little treats
> throughout the day) and acts frantic. Then he has a liquid
explosion and is fine.
>
> As he is acting normal, I'm guessing *I* am the problem - either fed
him too much the night
> before or too much of new stuff (he doesn't have this constantly -
it's on and off)
>
> I was going to try slippery elm bark . . . but could only find it in
capsules, not powder, which
> is what I keep seeing referred to in the archives. Can I use the
capsules? It says they are 370
> mg - the recommended dose (which is for people) is 4 capsules.
Anyone know how much a
> 75 pound dog can have?
>
> ...katie
>
> Sorry if this is redundant - I tried to search the archives, but
haven't yet found what I'm
> looking for.
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. possible allergies?
Posted by: "som622" som622@yahoo.com som622
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:39 pm ((PDT))

Hi everyone,

My dog has been having some nasal issues that I think might be
allergies. My roommate told me it might be the raw food and I should
switch back to kibble. She has never been on board with the raw
feeding. I have been feeding raw for about 3 months, but his sinus
issues have just started maybe 1-2 months ago. There has been a
really bad fire close to where I live for the past two months that I
think might be the cause. His symptoms are more than usual sneezing,
he just had an eye infection that, when treated with terramycin, seems
all better, and he has been snoring a lot more and coughing a bit. I
know its not kennel cough. He's been vaccinated and, after working at
a kennel for two years, the symptoms are not quite the same.
I really don't want to take him to the vet because I know they will
attribute it to his food and just suggest putting him on Hill ZD.
Any suggestions?

Lindsey

Messages in this topic (4)
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4b. Re: possible allergies?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:03 pm ((PDT))

Hi Lindsey,

I would suspect the fire, myself. My dog will sneeze right away if
someone is barbecueing nearby or if there's cigarette smoke. There's
a wildfire that's been going on for 2 months? I'm not sure what you
can do about that! Move?! :-) If your dog is really suffering, I
guess you could try getting him out of there part of the time (take
him with you when you can, take him to doggy daycare?). I wonder if
an air cleaner would help?

Good luck!

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "som622" <som622@...> wrote:
There has been a
> really bad fire close to where I live for the past two months that I
> think might be the cause. His symptoms are more than usual
sneezing,
> he just had an eye infection that, when treated with terramycin,
seems
> all better, and he has been snoring a lot more and coughing a bit.

Messages in this topic (4)
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4c. Re: possible allergies?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:16 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/27/2007 7:40:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,
som622@yahoo.com writes:

He's been vaccinated and, after working at
a kennel for two years, the symptoms are not quite the same.
I really don't want to take him to the vet because I know they will
attribute it to his food and just suggest putting him on Hill ZD.
Any suggestions?

Lindsey,

go ahead and go to the vet.. there is no reason to equate a raw diet with
nasal or sinus symptoms, especially if you're living with bad air quality because
of a fire.

I'm lucky because my vet doesn't use the food as an issue. But unless the
vet asks, there is no reason to tell them about the diet. There is someone on
this list that just tells their vet that they feed "dog food". and leaves it
at that (don't remember who it was).

it's your responsibility to do your best to feed and care for your animals,
it's your vet's responsibility to diagnose and treat illnesses, this is what
YOU pay him to do, you do NOT pay him to judge your choice of diet, or
lifestyle.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

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Messages in this topic (4)
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4d. Re: possible allergies?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:32 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Lindsey!
Since your dog probably wouldn't be amenable to wearing a
hepa mask when outside;
http://www.allergybegone.com/confacmas.html
http://www.icanbreathe.com/
probably one of the best things you can do is keep the windows shut
and the ac on, if you have it. Change the filters in the air intake
ducts of the house, ac and furnace to hepa ones, and as frequently as
recommended; http://www.nextag.com/3m-furnace-filter/search-html

Minimize his outdoor exposure as much as possible during this time.

Call a different vet, or a local health service and ask what you can
do to protect yourself and your dog from the effects of airborne
particulates from fires.

What kind of fire?

http://ndep.nv.gov/BAQP/neapfactsheet.pdf
http://deploymenthealthlibrary.fhp.osd.mil/products/Oil%20Well%20Fires%20(53).pdf
http://www.usc.edu/hsc/healthnow/2007/05/14/breathing-fire/
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hi everyone,
>
> My dog has been having some nasal issues that I think might be
> allergies.
<snip>
There has been a
> really bad fire close to where I live for the past two months that I
> think might be the cause. His symptoms are more than usual sneezing,
> he just had an eye infection that, when treated with terramycin, seems
> all better, and he has been snoring a lot more and coughing a bit. I
> know its not kennel cough.
<snip>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Lindsey
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. Re: organ meats
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:09 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/27/2007 6:03:22 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pudeltime@bellsouth.net writes:

Where do mountain oysters, pig fries etc fall in the organ category? Meaty
meat, or more in the liver categorie? I may be able to get some when my BIL
castrates calves this fall, just wondered if it were worth the effort to get them,
or were they super delicacies? I know the farm dogs used to steal away with
them post haste when we'd be doing herd work.

Linda,

My dogs are very fond of fries of almost any kind.. beef not as much as
buffalo or lamb, but just the same there is very little complaining when we get
them.

But, because we get them so seldom how they fit into the diet is not much of
an issue. But they are considered organ meat, part of the half that isn't
liver.

We're lucky to get one or two cases once a year.. so where they fall in the
organ percentage just isn't an issue.. the dogs eat them about once a week or
every other week for a month or if we're lucky, two.. and then they are gone..

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

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Messages in this topic (17)
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6a. Leather poop
Posted by: "Joe Rodriguez" jrod.65@gmail.com PEPITO65
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:58 pm ((PDT))

Hello all! I recently started my mastiff on raw and he loves it. I have been giving chicken only until he get used to raw. He is doing great. I have been monitoring his poop and today I noticed that it was very leathery and I can see the fiber structures. As I was examining, it actually unfolded in to a flat shape. Is this normal? I know for a fact he did not eat anything but chicken. He is with me almost 24 hrs a day.

Joe

Messages in this topic (2)
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6b. Re: Leather poop
Posted by: "john payne" brendajohn2823@yahoo.com brendajohn2823
Date: Tue Aug 28, 2007 5:34 am ((PDT))

I've been raw feeding our rott/am bulldog for 2 years, and i've noticed that a few times with him also. But never with our female, a smaller greyhound mix?
I would like to know the answer on this one also.
Brenda

Joe Rodriguez <jrod.65@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello all! I recently started my mastiff on raw and he loves it. I have been giving chicken only until he get used to raw. He is doing great. I have been monitoring his poop and today I noticed that it was very leathery and I can see the fiber structures. As I was examining, it actually unfolded in to a flat shape. Is this normal? I know for a fact he did not eat anything but chicken. He is with me almost 24 hrs a day.

Joe

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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7a. Raw feeding
Posted by: "kreepelladeville" kreepelladeville@yahoo.com kreepelladeville
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:36 pm ((PDT))

++Mod note: pls sign all emails (otherwise busy mods just tend to delete them without further warning) ++++

I just started to feed raw. How concerned should I be about E-Coli and
such?

Messages in this topic (23)
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7b. Re: Raw feeding
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:49 pm ((PDT))

Hi, uh, "kreepelladeville"!
Um, how do you define raw feeding?

What exactly are you feeding?

Whom are you feeding it to?

Please explain what you mean by 'and such'.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> ++Mod note: pls sign all emails (otherwise busy mods just tend to
delete them without further warning) ++++
>
>
> I just started to feed raw. How concerned should I be about E-Coli and
> such?
>

Messages in this topic (23)
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7c. Re: bacteria/e.coli (was: Raw feeding)
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Aug 28, 2007 4:25 am ((PDT))

Hi there,

Congrats on feeding raw!

I've not had a problem with anything like that in almost 6 yrs. of
feeding raw.

Here's a link to the section on the Raw Feeding Myths site about
bacteria:
http://rawfed.com/myths/bacteria.html

The rest of the site is great, too. Let us know if you have any more
specific questions.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kreepelladeville"
<kreepelladeville@...> wrote:
>
> I just started to feed raw. How concerned should I be about E-Coli
and
> such?
>

Messages in this topic (23)
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7d. my beagle is vomiting and not eating - lethargic
Posted by: "Christina Veit" friztin@earthlink.net FRIZTIN
Date: Tue Aug 28, 2007 4:26 am ((PDT))

Hello all

I have a 3 y/o beagle named Joe, who has been on different types/brands of
food since I rescued him from his previous owner. He has a very sensible
stomach (he vomits bile), so we figured out that feeding him 3 times a day
would do for him. We were giving him "high quality" kibble, but I was very
disappointed every time he got the same issues again and again... no matter
the brand or ingredients. He really LOVES eating, so trying new stuff isn't
a problem for him. So I started researching about raw foods.

Just about a week ago I started feeding him raw. I gave him chicken necks
and hearts the first days. He seemed very happy at feeding times, but didn't
want to play much. We have been remodeling our house (the dog haven't been
into anything, I'm 300% sure of that, since he's confined to other parts of
the house), so there have been some changes going on... that made me think
he was maybe depressed or stressed because of that.

When I was researching I got into a lot of different sites and
information... that lead me to give him some (wasn't much) veggies (carrots,
spinach, very little pieces of broccoli and less cauliflower and pumpkin)
and a tiny quantity of cooked rice with his food. I have to admit I did a
mistake there!!! But I didn't know... I found this group just today. Well...
I would say he was eating about 70% meat & bones and 30% veggies with each
serving. That was about 4 days ago... until yesterday night, when he vomited
his dinner, like 2 hours after eating it. I didn't get to see it, but my
husband told me it was totally unprocessed. I told him not to worry, because
it was normal if they vomited or got diarrhea the first days, so we go to
sleep hoping that next day would be another day. We woke up this morning,
and Joe was still sleeping. First, he didn't want to wake up and go to the
kitchen for his breakfast, so I brought him one piece of cat food to
persuade him (he's VERY food driven). He took that little piece and went to
the kitchen; he ate about 5 chicken hearts. About 2 hours later he throw
them up, again non-digested.

He has been sleeping all day (went potty twice, all normal) and he doesn't
want to eat, play or anything... just sleep. My husband went to the
supermarket and he didn't find any necks, so he bought chicken stomachs and
yogurt. I tried with those with no luck, tried to make some broth from the
stomachs... neither. Obviously, his sensitive and now empty stomach made him
vomit bile (around 6pm) and some kind of frothy saliva around 10pm. He still
sleeping. I'm not sure if it's me, but he looks like confused or weak when
walking around. He looks just fine while sleeping. I don't know if this is
part of the detox phase I read about, or if the veggies or the rice did that
to him? I'm very worried!!! I will not be able to take him to the vet's
office until afternoon (or maybe more) and... the vet is going to kill me if
I tell him I gave him raw food :(

Any idea of what may be happening to him? What should I do... just let him
fasten until he's ready to eat again? Should I be worried? My husband is
looking at me like I was experimenting with the poor dog :/

Oh.. forgot to mention he hasn't drinking any water neither...

Any help, hints and/or tips would be really appreciated!
Thanks!

Christina

Messages in this topic (23)
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7e. Re: Raw feeding
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Tue Aug 28, 2007 4:26 am ((PDT))

Not concerned, just keep a clean house, like you usually do and all is well.:)
Jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (23)
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