[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11961

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: shiba new to raw with watery diarrhea and vomiting
From: Brandi Bryant
1b. Re: shiba new to raw with watery diarrhea and vomiting
From: Giselle
1c. Re: shiba new to raw with watery diarrhea and vomiting
From: Morledzep@aol.com
1d. Re: shiba new to raw with watery diarrhea and vomiting
From: Laurie Swanson
1e. Re: shiba new to raw with watery diarrhea and vomiting
From: ginny wilken

2a. Re: How long do I "tough love"
From: carnesbill

3a. Re: Raw Feeding with some unexpected results!
From: Giselle

4. My dogs eating a "Real" Chicken
From: Jamie Dolan

5a. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
From: Daisy Foxworth
5b. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
From: lkanaday
5c. Why not to feed raw with kibble
From: Ivette Casiano
5d. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
From: clmu81

6a. Puppies and variety of meats
From: ptmagi
6b. Re: Puppies and variety of meats
From: Sandee Lee
6c. Re: Puppies and variety of meats
From: marblekallie

7a. Re: Pork and diarrhea
From: dogladyme
7b. Re: Pork and diarrhea
From: Shannon Parker
7c. Re: Pork and diarrhea
From: Nathalie Poulin

8. blanket statement
From: Ivette Casiano

9. Cockroaches?
From: temy1102

10. apple cider vinegar & digestive enzymes
From: Ivette Casiano

11.1. newbie
From: Delinda

12. Photos of raw eating
From: Penelope Quillen

13a. Re: Hello from a newbie.
From: annemariekruit

14. Panting and lethargy
From: ptmagi

Messages
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1a. Re: shiba new to raw with watery diarrhea and vomiting
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:51 pm ((PDT))

>>>>>How's the dogs doing? Sounds like their on their way!<<<<
Yes, they're doing great, gaining weight for those that need it, and can't
really tell just yet if Duke is losing weight or not. But I'm watching what
he eats. I gave them all a CapStar yesterday (I know - all natural but I
couldn't wait - I was tired of all the scratching) and it seems to have
worked. Nobody is scratching like they were. Max asked to go with me to
the store, which is just down the street, he hasn't done that in awhile.
And brought me a toy the other day. RAW seems to improve everyones attitude
- also. I'm very pleased with what I'm seeing!!! I'm going to continue
with chicken for the most part - might venture into turkey. I want to make
sure that they're alright with chicken before I venture on into pork.

I will keep you updated on how everyone is doing.

Thanks again you guys are GREAT!

Brandi
Bartlesville, OK

RAW is the BEST! (how's that for a signature line)!!!!

On 8/26/07, tottime47 <tottime@aol.com> wrote:
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www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

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Messages in this topic (9)
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1b. Re: shiba new to raw with watery diarrhea and vomiting
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:51 pm ((PDT))

Thumbs up, Brandi! : )

One caveat: you want to start with 2-3% of your dog's IDEAL ADULT
weight. Tweak with more meat if your dog gets a bit skinny, a bit less
if your dog gets 'fluffy' over the space of a few weeks. You might
start out by weighing your dog, and weighing her meals; but most peeps
don't continue once they get more comfortable and casual about feeding
raw.

And my recommendations:

1) Ditch the kibble - plenty of discussion on this list over the past
few days about why kibble and raw don't mix; just let it suffice that
your dog can reap the benefits of raw faster and more completely if
you donate the kibble to your local shelter asap. A species
appropriate raw whole prey model diet doesn't include kibble.

2) Feed at least 2 meals a day to start with. Feeding once a day (or
even less often) can be a great feeding plan for a dog, but not at
first; too much new food at a meal can cause digestive upset.

3) Feed a little less at each meal at first than you think you should.
Too much new food over the course of a day or two can cause digestive
upset, too.

4) Stay with one new protein for at least a week, maybe two. You want
the dog to be showing you he is well adjusted to the new protein
before adding in new stuff. Take it slow; add only one new protein
every week or two.

5) You can switch to a new protein by just serving it at a meal, and
all the meals after that for a week or so, or you can add a bite or
two of the new protein in with the 'old' protein, gradually adding
more new and less 'old' over several days, until you are feeding all
new and no 'old'. Whatever works for your own dog.

6) Boneless meals tend to produce loose, even runny poops. A judicious
amount of bone in a newbie dog's meal will tend to firm things up.
There will be less poop overall; raw is much more digestible and less
goes to waste. Poops will be less frequent also, for the same reason.
Bone adds bulk, so sloppy poops can be firmed up by some (don't go
overboard!) bone at each meal at first.

7) Chicken is recommended as the first protein to be introduced for
several reasons: its cheap, easy to obtain, easy to cut into different
dog meal sized portions, you can trim visible fat and skin if you need
to tweak, most dogs will eat it and its pretty bland. Read the labels
on the chicken before you buy; don't get any that say its enhanced
with flavoring/seasonings or salt injected. Some dogs get itchy or
vomit or get true diarrhea from enhancements. Whole chickens are the
best to start with, ime. Cut into portion sizes with kitchen shears,
as needed.

8) Some newbie dogs vomit or poop bone bits. There is an adjustment
period, so you want some bone in most meals at first, but too much
bone may not be digested and the dog will just hork it up or poop it
out. NPs, its just the dog's way of saying "Too much right now, thanks."

9) Some dogs will get the Bile Vomits or Bone Bile Vomits (BV or BBV)
when new to raw simply because their schedules or routines of eating
have been changed. When a dog adjusts to raw, his gastric 'juices'
become much more acid, to better digest the raw meat and bone. If he's
expecting a meal at a certain time, the 'juices start flowing' in
anticipation of getting a meal. When the meal doesn't happen, the dog
often will hork up the yellowish, foamyish bile, with or without
bones. Sometimes they hork up BBV because raw digests faster than
kibble, the tummy is empty, so it must be time to eat. NP for the dog,
he''s gotten rid of the irritation. He may react as if he feels bad,
just because you are upset that he did it on your new comforter, or on
the white carpet.

10) A lot of dogs don't drink as much water or as frequently when
switched to all raw, all the time. Raw has a pretty high water content
and most dogs are forced by dry as dust kibble to over drink water to
compensate in order for their bodies to process it. If only fed raw,
you don't need to coax your dog to drink more water or even broth,
just offer plenty of fresh water, he'll drink when he needs it.

11) True diarrhea is not just loose, runny or sloppy poops. It is
frequent, liquid or watery explosions of poo that a dog cannot 'hold
back'. True diarrhea, imo, is caused by disease, parasites or
inappropriate food or non food items. The occasional loose poops, even
over a few days, from feeding a few too many boneless meals or
introing a new protein or feeding too much organ at one whack, is not
diarrhea.

12) The general rule of thumb for feeding raw is: 80% meat (muscle,
fat, skin, connective tissue) 10% EDIBLE bone (not all bone that is
served must be consumed) and 10% organs (5% of this is liver, the rest
is as much variety as you can find and afford) This is not an
immutable 'daily requirement'. Balance Over Time, over weeks and
months is one of the raw feeding mottos. ; ) If you feed true whole
prey, that is; entire animals at a time, then the meat to bone to
organ ratios are 'perfect' for that creature. Whatever parts your dog
can eat of is right for him. In the wild, wolves will eat off a large
animal carcass for days, and each wolf gets different parts. If times
are hard, they will consume the entire critter, including skin, fur,
less 'choice' parts and will even crack the hard long bones to get to
the marrow. If pickin's are plentiful, they will eat the easiest and
choice parts, and then move on. Because of variances in size, age,
personality, life experiences and dental ability, a particular dog
will be able to consume, or not: all or part or some or a little bone
from any particular animal. If you feed 'Frankenprey', that is; a
variety of protein, body parts and organs from different animals, to
simulate the whole prey experience for your dogs, you are challenged
to find enough variety in all these aspects for optimal health.

13) Organs - don't try to add a lot of organs or organ variety at
first. An easy way to satisfy the human need to "Do it all, right
now!", is to toss the gizzards and heart you get with your whole
chickens in with a bonier meal, a little piece at a meal. Heart and
gizzards are organs, but should be fed as meatymeat. The liver can be
cut up into teensy bits, and fed a tiny bit at a time with a meal.
This will allow you to feed organs, but shouldn't cause runny stools.
If it does, cut it out and freeze those parts for later down the line.
My list of organs, so I don't forget to look for variety; liver, heart
(fed as meat), cheek meat, head meat, salivary glands, feet, lips,
oxtail, spleen, tongue (usually fed as meat), weasand meat
(esophagus), tripe, stomach, sweetbread (thymus & pancreas), ears,
kidneys, brain, tripe, poultry giblets - heart, liver, gizzard and
snouts. Heads, with all the ‘stuff’, including eyes.
"offal" - viscera and trimmings of a butchered animal often considered
inedible by humans.

14) SEBP - Slippery Elm Bark Powder. This is a good innocuous herb
that soothes the stomach and digestive system. If you feel you need to
intervene when your dog has loose poops or constipation, this is the
way to go. SEBP is "used to treat diarrhea, constipation, enteritis,
colitis & irritations of the stomach. Used to soothe, protect &
lubricate mucous membranes. Also, used to relieve the discomforts of
kennel cough & other types of bronchitis."
http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm
I use 1 tsp of SEBP to one ounce of ground or chopped chicken. Mix
together and shape enough meatballs for several days doses, and freeze
them. They thaw quickly. For small dogs, divide in 1/2 ounce
meatballs, for large to giant dogs, 1 ounce meatballs. Feed 1 with
each meal. Or, fast for a day, (not for pups, fast for just a meal or
two) offer plenty of water. Feed SEBP meatballs 3-4 times throughout
the day. Feed smaller, more frequent meals for several days after,
gradually increasing the meals and decreasing the SEBP meatballs. You
will often see an increase in mucousy poops with SEBP, this is part of
the way it soothes the digestive system, and the dog's body will do
the same sometimes even without SEBP.

15) You can feed pretty much any animal or animal part that your dog
will eat and that won't break the bank. : ) Common grocery store
variety suffices for some; chicken, turkey, pork, beef, lamb, fish,
rabbit. Others can obtain at a reasonable price and feed; goat,
venison, emu, ostrich, bison, beefalo, elk, mutton, mice, rats, guinea
hen, quail, bear (bear? ;) ), the list goes on and on.

16) Lis' List; ways to creatively source cheaper variety in protein,
parts and organs. FreeCycle and craigslist are great ways to find a
free or cheap freezer to hold all the scores you'll be making!
> Where do you look for meat suppliers?

Permission to repost from Lis

1) Look up meat and poultry packers, processors, and distributors in
the yellow pages. You may be able to get great prices from them if
you order in bulk, and/or they may have a discount outlet that is
open to the public.
2) I get many of my best deals in Asian/Oriental markets. I've also
heard that Hispanic and Caribbean markets have great variety and
prices too.
3) You may be able to join a barter group.
4) Google breeders (i.e. rabbit, goat, lamb, etc.) who are in your
geographic area. They may have culls they want to get rid of, or
lower prices overall.
5) Look up bulk suppliers and frozen bulk foods in your yellow pages.
6) If you have a Chinatown nearby, definitely make a visit.
7) Let your friends, relatives, and neighbors know you want any
freezer burn or old meat when they clean out their freezers, and tell
them to pass the word along.
8)If you belong to a church or social group, tell those members to
mention it to their friends and relatives as well.
9) See if there are any co-ops or meat buying groups near you. Check
on Yahoo, or Google to see.
10) Try craigslist - it's amazing what you can get for free or cheap.
11) And I get meat and fish all the time (for free) through
FreeCycle. Join multiple lists if there are a few close by.
12) Some Wal-marts and some Costcos and some Sam’s Clubs have good
deals, but you may want to make sure it's not seasoned meat.
13) Definitely watch the flyers, and you can usually see the rest
of the flyers online (the ones that don't get delivered to your house,
but are only a short drive away).
14) *** Hands down, the bulk of my best deals have been marked down
meat at regular grocery stores. They reduce it the day before it is
going to expire, and I go as early as I can to get it before it is
gone.
15) Tell friends and relatives who hunt and fish that you want first
dibs on any body parts they don't. You can probably get at least the
organs and maybe the head. Also ask them to put you in touch with
their other friends who hunt and fish.
16) A great tip I learned here a while back â€" some restaurants
throw out things they don't use, like the organs that come inside
whole poultry, or raw meat that falls on the floor. See if they'll
save them for you. Find somebody who knows somebody who works there.
17) Farmer's markets are great, but pick and choose carefully for the
best bargains. And sometimes at the end of the day some vendors will
reduce their prices, ‘cause they don't want to take it back with them.
18) Some people contact taxidermists, who have no use for the meat.
19) Find people on this list from your vicinity, and ask them where
they get their meat deals. Join other raw feeding lists (there are
many), and ask if there are other raw feeders in your area.
20) Tell your butcher you want the meat that they would normally
throw out, that is almost out of date, that people ordered and didn't
pick up, stuff that was dropped on the floor, their freezer
cleanouts, and parts that don't sell (like trachea, lungs, spleen,
etc.). Some butchers will save their trim for you (once they get to
know you). Build a relationship with them first.
21) Yes, roadkill works too (where it is legal). In some places you
can get your name on the list and get called when they have large
roadkill. (like deer)
22) You can raise your own meat/poultry if you have the room.
23) Post a message in Carnivore Feed-Supplier or CFS-Canada if you are
in North America:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CFS-Canada/
24) Speak to local farmers.
25) Also, look for heart, tongue, and gizzards, which count as meat (as
opposed to organ) in the world of raw feeding, but are often cheaper
than other muscle meats.
26) Find somebody who knows somebody who works at the grocery store.
They can introduce you to the meat guy, who may become more willing
to save stuff for you or reduce items about to expire, once they know
you.
27) Check the internet. Some suppliers have affordable prices, even
after shipping costs are calculated.

Lis

It really isn't that hard to raw feed your dog. There's a learning
curve, definitely. But, that's what this list is here for.
Read as many daily posts as you can, read the files on the website,
and follow those links! Search in the archives for past posts with
keywords; new to raw, newbie, help, how do I start, etc.
TC, Aisha, let us know how you and Thelma progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

Aisha said: "She's vomited three
times and had diarrhea though sat night into Fri AM. I feel like a bad
mom.

Did I give too much too fast, or the wrong sort of meats? I am looking
for specific guidelines
re a suggested diet for Thelma based on her weight." >snip<<<<<
>
> Ok, I'm going to try this, I'm pretty new myself. And I think
they'll tell
> you a couple of things. <snip>
> Keep reading past posts, and keep asking questions.
>
> OK guys how'd I do, have I learned anything that you guys taught me???
>
> Hope I've helped some,
> Brandi
> Bartlesville, Ok

Messages in this topic (9)
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1c. Re: shiba new to raw with watery diarrhea and vomiting
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:52 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/26/2007 5:43:33 AM Pacific Standard Time,
soyviz@yahoo.com writes:

Did I give too much too fast, or the wrong sort of meats? I am looking for
specific guidelines
re a suggested diet for Thelma based on her weight. She's not picky about
food and is not
prone to gastric upset on kibble. Sorry this is rather long, but I am worried
about my little girl
and wanted to get all the info out.

Aisha,

you're suffering from the two most common newbie mistakes.

Too much food and too much variety too soon..

Start with ONE kind of meat, chicken is usually cheapest and easiest to do
this with but it is certainly not the only kind of meat you can start with.

in the current situation you probably need to fast your dog for 24 hours to
let her tummy settle.. then start again, one meal per day, 3% of your dog's
ideal adult weight. if she's 20 lbs and supposed to be 20 lbs she should get
slightly less than 1/2 lb per day.

so just guessing off the top of my head because i really haven't weighed a
piece of chicken in a very long time..

first day, bone in chicken breast, don't bother removing the wing..
second day, the thigh from said chicken
third day, the other breast with the wing
fourth day, chicken leg
fifth day, another thigh

work your way through the whole bird.. and if her poops haven't stabilized by
then take the skin off the chicken and do it again.

after that, start adding in different meats, no more than one new kind of
meat per week. and gradually add in organs a dab one week, a small chunk the
next week, a slightly bigger piece the following week.. till you get to
approximately 10% of her overall diet or to her bowel tollerance, whichever comes
first.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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1d. Re: shiba new to raw with watery diarrhea and vomiting
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:12 pm ((PDT))

Hi Aisha,

Could be the mixture of raw and kibble, could be any of those
fishies, but it's interesting that the vomiting was following the
mackarel because I had a similar experience with my dog and mackarel
and I remember at least 2 other people on the list having the same
thing (vomiting following mackarel). I know people do feed it,
though.

I would get rid of the kibble, just do chicken for a week or two and
then start gradually introducing new things so you can tell if any
particular item is causing an issue.

Read lots of posts and let us know if you have any other specific
questions.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "soyviz" <soyviz@...> wrote:
Yesterday
> AM (sat) I gave her a skinless chick thigh and a mackerel around
4pm. She's vomited three
> times and had diarrhea though sat night into Fri AM. I feel like a
bad mom.

Messages in this topic (9)
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1e. Re: shiba new to raw with watery diarrhea and vomiting
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:59 pm ((PDT))

On Aug 26, 2007, at 1:41 PM, Brandi Bryant wrote:

> I gave them all a CapStar yesterday (I know - all natural but I
> couldn't wait - I was tired of all the scratching) and it seems to
> have
> worked.

Yeah, all natural like nicotine, arsenic, and wormwood! What part of
"poison" do you fail to understand? Or do you really think Novartis
is in business to make your pet healthy? Pardon me, but someone is
surely pulling the wool over YOUR eyes. If the worst you can imagine
is our being upset with you, well, there ya go. A little flea poison
is like letting your kid play in traffic a little. Don't do this
anymore, OK? You need to pay attention to other suggestions for flea
control made here and on Rawchat, please.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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2a. Re: How long do I "tough love"
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:52 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "dazolevid" <dazolevid@...> wrote:
>
> She's never been a chewer (not toys, not shoes, not
> rawhide, not anything, really).

> 2) Her issue seems to mainly be the chewing aspect of eating.
> What can I do to help her
> 're-learn' how to chew?

I am leaning towards the pain angle. I think something is
physically wrong with this dogs teeth or mouth or jaw either in
bones or muscles. It's not normal for a dog not to chew anything.
Chewing is a physiological and psychological need in all canines.
It is necessary for physical and mental health.

I would have the vet give her a very good exam re teeth/mouth/head
before pushing her to chew when she doesn't want to. There is a
reason she won't chew and I would want to know what it is before
going any further. Of course continue feeding her the raw stuff she
will eat until you discover the cause.

I really don't think it is stubborness. Normal healthy dogs LOVE to
chew.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Re: Raw Feeding with some unexpected results!
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:13 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Stan!
KEWL!!!!
I'm glad Stallin and Fever are doing so much better!
Strengthening their immune systems by raw feeding has sure helped them
put the mange mites back in their place!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mange
http://www.canismajor.com/dog/mange1.html
Never be afraid to post - there are multiple posts daily about the
same subjects, and rarer problems. But, each person and dog are
unique, so we don't mind virtual hand holding or answering similar Qs.
Do you check in daily, and read as many posts as you can? Reading the
files on the website and following the links can help you get their
diet tweaked just right. Also, searching for keywords in the message
archives can bring up some interesting discussions.
TC, and keep us posted!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hi everyone!
> I am newer to the group(about 3 months) I haven't posted before now
> because I was unsure if I was doing the right thing. ( all the stories
> about dogs becoming mean when fed raw meat) Well maybe I should start
> from the beginning, <snip> So those of you sitting on the fence,
give it a try! and as
> for all those people who say the dogs will get mean, they do have more
> energy, but not mean. this is just past the 3 month mark, I will keep
> you all posted as to what happens in the coming months
> Cheers
> Stan
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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4. My dogs eating a "Real" Chicken
Posted by: "Jamie Dolan" jamiedolan@gmail.com jamiedolan
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:12 pm ((PDT))

Hello All;

I posted this over in raw chat, but I decided to make a post here as
well. These photos may be helpful to thoses that are really worried
about smaller dogs being able to eat real RMB.

My dogs eating a real RAW unprocessed chicken.

The dogs size: 12 pounds, 15 pounds, and 19 pounds.

Warning - Photos are graphic...

Here is the web page the photos are on:

http://www.pixagogo.com/1766374120

-Jamie Dolan

Messages in this topic (1)
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5a. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
Posted by: "Daisy Foxworth" daisyfoxworth@yahoo.com daisyfoxworth
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:12 pm ((PDT))

It relates more to cats, but the following article, chock full of
science paper references, is what knocked me fully off the fence about
ever giving my cat any more kibble or grains:

http://maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm

Daisy

Messages in this topic (20)
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5b. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
Posted by: "lkanaday" lkanaday@yahoo.com lkanaday
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:42 pm ((PDT))

Also, scientific reasons like this will also come in handy for ppl
who want to make their vet's head spin lol. This would also explain
why kibble fed dogs have more salmonella in their feces, wouldn't
it?? Since the kibble allows for a higher pH and, therefore, more
proliferation of salmonella....???
LaHoma

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com,
"chaparraltrail" <chaparraltrail@...> wrote:
>
> > Having such a blind following is why us raw
> > feeders are at times called 'cult-like'. Every part of this diet
> is
> > scientifically based on the dogs biology
> *****
>
> YES! YES! YES!
>
> Those of you with all the years of practical experienc, and all the
> wonderful practical advice, need to understand that the scinece
> behind the advice is critical for some of us, and also for
> discussing this intelligently with others. It is a major turn-off
> (and indeed cult-like) to be told that the facts don't matter.
>
>
> Lori
>

Messages in this topic (20)
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5c. Why not to feed raw with kibble
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:01 pm ((PDT))

<<...So, I guess I really dodged a bullet (or our poor Atticus did) several
times last week when I was sprinkling ground beef on top of his kibble
and/or feeding alternating meals of kibble and raw chicken quarters.
Knocking-on- wood… he hasn't shown any ill-effects yet anyway...>>

I too dodged that bullet. I was feeding Nugget one meal of raw and one of k***le too. I only fed him once a day. We always noticed the different poop according to the different meals. Now he's on all raw and the poop is so much less. Now we have the problem of dry spots on the lawn from his urine.
Does anyone have an answer to why the urine spots on the lawn used to be green and healthy when he was on k***le but now that he's on raw it's killing the grass?
Is it the urea in his urine from the raw? Was he urinating lots of stuff he wasn't using anyway while eating kibble that was feeding the lawn?
Ivette

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

---------------------------------
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (20)
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5d. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
Posted by: "clmu81" clmu@sbcglobal.net clmu81
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:10 pm ((PDT))

The body continues to add acid into the stomach to keep the pH low
enough to promote digestion. Thus, the pH would not rise more with
kibble than with raw meat. This experiment does not accurately
reflect the dynamic process in the stomach.

Curtis

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ptmagi" <ptmagi@...> wrote:
>
> sum it up VERY SIMPLISTICALLY...
>
> The pH level in a dog's stomach is key. Raw meat does often contain
> salmonella (and other icky stuff). But salmonella needs a minimum
pH
> 4 to grow. An informal study showed that when raw meat was added
to a
> solution of pH 1 (akin to a dog's stomach), the pH level gradually
> rose and leveled off at pH 3 after 6-1/2 hours. (Raw meat is fully
> digested within 4-6 hours.) When kibble was added to a pH 1
solution,
> the pH level rose to about 5.75 after 6-1/2 hours - a much more
> opportune environment for bacterial growth (bloom). Also, carbs
stay
> in a dog's digestive system for 8-12 hours, so even if the kibble
and
> raw are fed at different meals, if you're feeding three times a day
> (as I am) it's likely that the pH level will remain constantly high
> enough to encourage bacterial growth. This last inference is my
own,
> but it seems logical.

Messages in this topic (20)
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6a. Puppies and variety of meats
Posted by: "ptmagi" ptmagi@gmail.com ptmagi
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:12 pm ((PDT))

I think I read that it's okay to offer a variety of meats to puppies
from the git-go rather than starting off with one protein for a week
or two, then adding another for the next couple of weeks, etc., but
after searching for info on the topic I'm coming up empty-handed. Is
this true or did I dream it? And if it's true, up to what age is this
considered safe? Or does it apply only to pups who go straight to raw
after weaning?

Thanks,
Deb in CO

Messages in this topic (3)
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6b. Re: Puppies and variety of meats
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:41 pm ((PDT))

Hi Deb,

You might find some info in these past messages....
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/135757
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/135847
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/137170

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "ptmagi" <ptmagi@gmail.com>

I think I read that it's okay to offer a variety of meats to puppies
from the git-go rather than starting off with one protein for a week
or two, then adding another for the next couple of weeks, etc., but
after searching for info on the topic I'm coming up empty-handed. Is
this true or did I dream it? And if it's true, up to what age is this
considered safe? Or does it apply only to pups who go straight to raw
after weaning?

Messages in this topic (3)
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6c. Re: Puppies and variety of meats
Posted by: "marblekallie" marble@pipeline.com marblekallie
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:10 pm ((PDT))

Hi:

I don't know what age pups you are dealing with, but FWIW I brought
home a 3 month old (mini dachshund) and switched her cold turkey.
After one meal of chicken which disappeared fast, I thought I would try
goat. That disappeared fast too. She is now nearly 5 months and has
eaten just about everything I put on the older dogs' menu with not so
much as a slightly loose stool even including fish and various organs.
She was raised on kibble.

Philippa Jordan
New York City

> I think I read that it's okay to offer a variety of meats to puppies
> from the git-go rather than starting off with one protein for a week
> or two,

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Re: Pork and diarrhea
Posted by: "dogladyme" ooblab@hotmail.com dogladyme
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:14 pm ((PDT))

Anyone have any ideas as to why pork may suddenly be causing diarrhea
> and what to do about it besides not feeding it?
>
> Mary
>

Thanks for the suggestions! The pork I buy is definitely NOT enhanced
(I'm very careful about that), so I don't believe that is the problem.

I have used slippery elm in the past and it is helpful, but I don't
want to feed something that I'm going to have to supplement with
slippery elm in order to feed it- just doesn't seem like the right way
to go.

I hadn't thought about feeding a little pork with something else
(smacking my forehead- duh!), so I'll give that a try. It just seems
strange to me that everybody was doing fine and then suddenly a
problem. But- whatever it takes for the kids!

Mary

Messages in this topic (6)
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7b. Re: Pork and diarrhea
Posted by: "Shannon Parker" mrbatisse@yahoo.ca mrbatisse
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:09 pm ((PDT))

Hi Mary,

My dogs get loose stools as well from pork. I don't about it too much, but feed it less frequently than anything else.

dogladyme <ooblab@hotmail.com> wrote:
My 2 adult dogs have been on RMBs for a year now (Pitcairn-style before
that) and doing very well- my 5 m/o pup started on raw from the get-go,
also doing very well.

The last 6 weeks or so, they all get diarrhea or loose stools after a
meal of pork (usually from a pork picnic roast).

The pork has been frozen for several weeks before feeding and taken out
the day before to defrost in the fridge for the next meal. They each
get a serving appropriate to their needs, not the whole roast at one
sitting. I do vary their meals through-out the week- different cuts of
beef, fish and chicken is what's most readily available for me, as well
as the pork- they usually get one day chicken, one day fish, one day
beef, etc. versus several days of the same thing.

Anyone have any ideas as to why pork may suddenly be causing diarrhea
and what to do about it besides not feeding it?

Mary

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Messages in this topic (6)
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7c. Re: Pork and diarrhea
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:19 pm ((PDT))

It may be that it's enhanced. I fed some pork to mt
dog yesturday and she's been vomiting all day (see
post: Frothy Vomit). Maybe some dogs react
differently..some get diarrhea, some just puke..
Check your labels. The pork I gave my dog was from the
grocery store, but the last time I fed pork from the
butcher and she was fine.
I have yet to find pork at the grocery store that
isn't seasoned with salt.

Nathalie

>
> Anyone have any ideas as to why pork may suddenly be
> causing diarrhea
> and what to do about it besides not feeding it?
>
> Mary

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Messages in this topic (6)
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8. blanket statement
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:00 pm ((PDT))

<<...That answer is not good enough for folks like me who need to know WHY.
And it's not really even an answer to the question, it's exactly what
I said... simply a blanket statement that raw is superior. ..>>

Amen to that, Deb in CO. I too was feeding raw and kibble alternating feedings. I also need the "WHY" to understand and be convinced. So thank you for the information. I've been feeding all raw for 2 weeks now but was feeding kibble and raw for 2 months.
Sometimes, people who have been feeding raw a long time and know without a doubt that it's the best thing to feed your pet, forget that we newbies don't know any such thing because of the brain washing we've had from the dog food industry and vets (people who are supposed to know what's best for our pets). So we DO need the data, facts, research and explanations.
Ivette

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

---------------------------------
Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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9. Cockroaches?
Posted by: "temy1102" ahn.tammy@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:02 pm ((PDT))

Okay, I know cicadas make for delicious prey, but Grover's been
hunting roaches at the park at night. At first, I didn't know what
she was pouncing and munching on when we'd do our nightly play session
at the neighborhood park, but now I know. Cockroaches. Of various
sizes. Oh the joys of urban living.

It's disgusting, but is it dangerous? People say roaches are filthy
and disease-ridden, but are they really? Anyone else's dogs like to
snack on roaches?

Tammy & Grover

Messages in this topic (1)
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10. apple cider vinegar & digestive enzymes
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:12 pm ((PDT))

Does anyone have any info on adding apple cider vinegar to a dog's raw diet?
I know that keeps their ph down, but don't know how much nor how often it should be added.
Nugget is a 90lb Lab doing well on raw for 3 weeks now. He's eaten chicken, beef hearts, pork and lamb. Oh, and a little liver, not too often because that's what gave him the runs last time I tried. Anyway, does the vinegar help their digestion? I give him digestive enzymes already. Another question. Is there a time when I can stop giving him digestive enzymes?
Ivette

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

---------------------------------
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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11.1. newbie
Posted by: "Delinda" dharmon@homenetnw.net delinda_harmon
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:09 pm ((PDT))

I have just started rawfeeding my male english mastiff and my female
boxer. While the weather has been nice, I have been able to feed
them outside, but now the bees are very active and they are swarming
the meat. I'd like some input from all of you, if you don't mind, on
how you feed them in the house. I don't have a garage to utilize for
this. My boxer wants to drag hers onto the carpeting and we are at
odds over it. Also, my back yard looks like a bone yard by the weeks
end. My meat is coming from a packing plant, it is human grade
meat,beef and lamb, so good quality, but there are a lot of bones
included. I also buy whole chicken for them and use giblets and
chicken feet for treats. How long can these be left in the yard
without becoming harmful? I have been putting them in trash if not
eaten within a couple of hours. As to how much, I am feeding my
mastiff between 5-6 lbs a day, he should weigh around 200 lbs when
he is filled out and is at 155 at this time, and my female boxer
about 2 lbs of meat and bone daily. She weighs about 65 right now. I
walk them both about 2 to
2 1/2 miles each morning, so I think they are pretty active.

Thank you so much for any advice you may be able to give me.

Delinda

Messages in this topic (45)
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12. Photos of raw eating
Posted by: "Penelope Quillen" copperquillpen@hotmail.com copperquillpen1958
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:09 pm ((PDT))

Jamie, I looked at your photos. Your dogs looked like they were really
enjoying themselves. My question for you is: are the feathers good for the
digestion? It seems to me that they would get caught somewhere. By the way
you have some cute dogs. Thank-you for the warning about the photos. That
was a good idea. Even though they didn't bother me, they might bother some
one else. Penelope

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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13a. Re: Hello from a newbie.
Posted by: "annemariekruit" annemariekruit@yahoo.ca annemariekruit
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:09 pm ((PDT))

> "rebecca_rogge" <rebecca_rogge@> wrote:
> >> FYI: Maybe you don't have any control over this, but there are
> > advertisements for Purina and other "kibble" brands at the top of
> > this page.
>
> I think it's funny, myself. I see the ProPlan banner and I say oh,
> right, sure, you bet.
> Chris O
> Mod Team
>
Win a one-year supply of their food (Woo Hoo) = it probably all arrives
at the same time and you can store it in your garage... hope the rats
don't get to it. I noticed that too, but I just ignore it. Anne-Marie

Messages in this topic (3)
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14. Panting and lethargy
Posted by: "ptmagi" ptmagi@gmail.com ptmagi
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:12 pm ((PDT))

I'm a little concerned about our pup, Atticus. Today is the first day
of 100% raw for him. He had a chicken leg quarter at 9:30 am and a
chicken breast quarter at 2:00 pm. The first time I gave him a
chicken leg quarter several days ago he was energetic and happy as a
lark after eating. Today, he's barely moving and he's panting a lot
(it's not at all hot here today, and even when it is I've never really
seen him pant unless he's been running around a lot). He's also
acting completely out of character, such as he usually follows me
everywhere and if I sit down at the computer he's frantically trying
to find a way into the room to be with me. Right now he's just lying
down outside of the room and accepting it. In other words, he's
really acting like he doesn't feel well.

Any ideas what might be going on? I was planning on giving him a hunk
of pork from a shoulder for dinner, but now I'm not sure what the heck
to do!

Deb in CO

Messages in this topic (1)
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