[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11960

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. shiba new to raw with watery diarrhea and vomiting
From: soyviz
1b. Re: shiba new to raw with watery diarrhea and vomiting
From: Brandi Bryant
1c. Re: shiba new to raw with watery diarrhea and vomiting
From: tottime47
1d. Re: shiba new to raw with watery diarrhea and vomiting
From: carnesbill

2a. Pork and diarrhea
From: dogladyme
2b. Re: Pork and diarrhea
From: Yasuko herron
2c. Re: Pork and diarrhea
From: Morledzep@aol.com

3a. Re: Garlic tips
From: Kris

4a. Re: The Constipation has started...
From: mandajenwalker

5. Raw Feeding with some unexpected results!
From: stan

6a. How long do I "tough love"
From: dazolevid
6b. Re: How long do I "tough love"
From: cmhausrath

7a. Re: The slippery elm bark seems to have worked! Yippee!
From: Yasuko herron

8a. Re: Slippery Elm powder/storage
From: Yasuko herron

9a. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
From: costrowski75
9b. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
From: Joe Rodriguez
9c. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
From: Joseph
9d. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
From: costrowski75
9e. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
From: chaparraltrail

10a. Re: Hi Cori Owen
From: ittybittybullies

11a. Re: Thank you Bill Carnes
From: ittybittybullies

12. HELP! They are still not pooping and one threw up!
From: blue eyed

13a. File - Admin-Trim it, Sign it, and Sig lines-PLEASE READ!!!
From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com

14.1. File - Other related lists
From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com

15. Frothy vomit
From: Nathalie Poulin

Messages
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1a. shiba new to raw with watery diarrhea and vomiting
Posted by: "soyviz" soyviz@yahoo.com soyviz
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:43 am ((PDT))

Hi everyone--

My 6-yr-old shiba (20 lbs) Thelma started eating raw this past week. First she ate her dry
Wellness kibble plus cut-up tilapia fillet. Then on day 2 I cut up some chicken breast. Day 3
she ate half a bronzino (fish) w/no problem (on the smaller side). Day 4 she ate a skinless
chicken thigh with a bit of bone, no problem (but no pooping either since Thurs). Yesterday
AM (sat) I gave her a skinless chick thigh and a mackerel around 4pm. She's vomited three
times and had diarrhea though sat night into Fri AM. I feel like a bad mom.

Did I give too much too fast, or the wrong sort of meats? I am looking for specific guidelines
re a suggested diet for Thelma based on her weight. She's not picky about food and is not
prone to gastric upset on kibble. Sorry this is rather long, but I am worried about my little girl
and wanted to get all the info out.

Thanks,
Aisha in Phila

Messages in this topic (4)
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1b. Re: shiba new to raw with watery diarrhea and vomiting
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:19 am ((PDT))

>>>>My 6-yr-old shiba (20 lbs) Thelma started eating raw this past week.
First she ate her dry Wellness kibble plus cut-up tilapia fillet. Then on
day 2 I cut up some chicken breast. Day 3 she ate half a bronzino (fish)
w/no problem (on the smaller side). Day 4 she ate a skinless >snip<<<<<

Ok, I'm going to try this, I'm pretty new myself. And I think they'll tell
you a couple of things. First cut out the kibble and the fish. Start out
with just chicken. Start slow let her system get use to the chicken before
adding another protein such as pork. The mucus in her poo is her body
getting use to digesting the new. You want to feed her more bone, bone is
what harden and firms up the poo. You can get a whole chicken and cut down
to portion that suit your dog. They say you need to be feeding 2-3% of your
dogs body weight or adjust to how your dog looks. If he's looking to skinny
add more, if he's looking to chunky feed less. That's what I'm doing, I
just watch their weight and then adjust what their suppose to eat. The
ratio for feeding raw is 80% meat, 10% bones, and 10% organ. Don't feed
organs because you'll have more of a problem, like diaherra. Let her get
use to the chicken first. They'll also tell you to relax, don't think too
much about it, it will become more natural the more you do it...and their
right it does.

Keep reading past posts, and keep asking questions.

OK guys how'd I do, have I learned anything that you guys taught me???

Hope I've helped some,
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok

>
>
>

--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok
www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

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Messages in this topic (4)
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1c. Re: shiba new to raw with watery diarrhea and vomiting
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:03 am ((PDT))

Hi Brandi,

YOU did great! What a quick learner.........How's the dogs doing?
Sounds like their on their way!

Carol, Charkee & Moli (we love it too!)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Brandi Bryant" <bbryant573@...>
wrote:

> Keep reading past posts, and keep asking questions.
>
> OK guys how'd I do, have I learned anything that you guys taught me???
>
> Hope I've helped some,
> Brandi
> Bartlesville, Ok

Messages in this topic (4)
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1d. Re: shiba new to raw with watery diarrhea and vomiting
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:50 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "soyviz" <soyviz@...> wrote:
>
> Did I give too much too fast, or the wrong sort of meats?

I think you pretty much gave her the wrong sort of meats to begin
the diet with. Once she is used to eating and digesting a raw diet,
what you gave her was fine except fot the kibble.

> I am looking for specific guidelines
> or a suggested diet for Thelma based on her weight.

Get the book "Work Wonders" by Tom Lonsdale either at

http://www.dogwise.com or at http://www.amazon.com(cheaper). It
will give you a good deal of insight as to how to feed your dog a
raw meaty bones diet.

A few informative web sites are:
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm (My web page)
http://rawfeddogs.net/

--- be sure and check the recipes page.
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Pork and diarrhea
Posted by: "dogladyme" ooblab@hotmail.com dogladyme
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:23 am ((PDT))

My 2 adult dogs have been on RMBs for a year now (Pitcairn-style before
that) and doing very well- my 5 m/o pup started on raw from the get-go,
also doing very well.

The last 6 weeks or so, they all get diarrhea or loose stools after a
meal of pork (usually from a pork picnic roast).

The pork has been frozen for several weeks before feeding and taken out
the day before to defrost in the fridge for the next meal. They each
get a serving appropriate to their needs, not the whole roast at one
sitting. I do vary their meals through-out the week- different cuts of
beef, fish and chicken is what's most readily available for me, as well
as the pork- they usually get one day chicken, one day fish, one day
beef, etc. versus several days of the same thing.

Anyone have any ideas as to why pork may suddenly be causing diarrhea
and what to do about it besides not feeding it?

Mary

Messages in this topic (3)
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2b. Re: Pork and diarrhea
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:37 am ((PDT))

>Anyone have any ideas as to why pork may suddenly be causing diarrhea
>and what to do about it besides not feeding it?

Hi,Mary. When you feed Pork,did you start out with small amount of pork plus something your dogs are already doing great on like chicken?

My guess isthat,pork is fattier meats than any of the protin varieties you mentioned;Chicken Fish,Beef. So,your dog could not torelate very well on fattier meats(Too much fat).

My suggestion is,why don't you start feeding Chicken or any other meats you know your dog do pretty good on plus small amount of pork,and then gradually increase the pork amount to your dogs' torelance.

You can try small amount of Pork boneless meat+chicken and increase the sizeof pork boneless meat,or if you want try pork bone in meal,you can do pork rib +Boneless chicken and then to increase thepork meat amount,you can do pork rib +boneless pork+little reduced amount of Boneless chicken etc..

My dog cannot handle very well with too much fat I think andshe cannot eat more than 1 oz of Lamb Tongue. So,I upped the amount of Lamb tongue to her torelance;1oz paired up with chicken and I moved on to the other meat and I will come back on Lamb again later and try increase the lamb tongue amount from 1 oz with combo meal.

When you can try get rid of fat skin or fat blob on meat,and if your dog has watery diarrhea, try fast dog first and then try fat part off from meat and if it did not work,make combo meal with new protin small size+big amount of well-torelated meat.

And give slippery Elm powder like others.I haven't used it before so,I cannot comment on thisyet but I hear it works great.

If you are just having loose poo,it is not diarrhea,so,just up the bone amount and it should help.

Good Luck

yassy

---------------------------------
Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

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Messages in this topic (3)
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2c. Re: Pork and diarrhea
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:50 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/26/2007 6:24:42 AM Pacific Standard Time,
ooblab@hotmail.com writes:

Anyone have any ideas as to why pork may suddenly be causing diarrhea
and what to do about it besides not feeding it?

Mary,

check the label on your pork roasts, maybe your sources have changed and the
pork you're getting is now "enhanced"?

maybe you just need to reduce the size of the pork meal?

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

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Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Re: Garlic tips
Posted by: "Kris" kdnhs@verizon.net luvthegsd
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:29 am ((PDT))

Ok Sandy, I will be joining rawchat because I really need some more discussion on this topic since Frontline is not working for my dogs at all this year.:(

Kris

Hey Theresa --

Frontline will do your guys no favors! How about bringing this topic
over to RawChat, where our discussions can range a little more freely?
Meanwhile, don't panic! Fleas can be dispatched by non-toxic means,
and while it may take a bit longer, it'll do no lasting harm to your
dog (as pesticides will).

Oh, and for those who don't belong to RC yet, come join us:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawchat

-- sandy & griffin

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Messages in this topic (5)
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4a. Re: The Constipation has started...
Posted by: "mandajenwalker" walker1031@chartermi.net mandajenwalker
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:03 am ((PDT))

Hi Laurie,
I gave Louie a cut of rump roast.....I gave it to him without bone
though. I also got him to eat the chicken leg he has been working on
for a couple days (in the basement). I thought I would try giving him
a thigh instead of a leg. I think he has a hard time with the leg
bone (being so thick). The thigh atleast has some smaller bones in
it. I think it also helped to sear it a little and put a little
garlic on it so we are doing that again. I am still trying to get
them to eat chicken as the base at this point and introducing the pork
(no bone) so they are atleast getting some nutrition.
thanks for you input,
Mandy

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Swanson" <laurie@...> wrote:
>
> Mandy,
>
> That's great if the basement works--you could also gate off the kitchen
> or teach them to eat on their own blankets/towels in the living room.
> Many of us have done that very easily. Just put the food down on the
> blanket and if they try to take it off, put it back on. After a few
> times, they'll probably learn they can eat in peace if they keep it on
> the blanket. Some others use crates, etc.
>
> What cut of pork did you give Louie? He might just take a bit longer
> to figure out how to do this! :-) And sometimes they have to build up
> jaw strength for the harder bones (pork shouldn't be too hard, it's
> just harder than chicken).
>
> Laurie
>

Messages in this topic (11)
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5. Raw Feeding with some unexpected results!
Posted by: "stan" kursplatt@yahoo.ca kursplatt
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:05 am ((PDT))

Hi everyone!
I am newer to the group(about 3 months) I haven't posted before now
because I was unsure if I was doing the right thing. ( all the stories
about dogs becomming mean when fed raw meat) Well maybe I should start
from the beginning, I have two rescue dogs, a 2.5 year old male
siberian husky called stallin, and an 18 month old female pug called
Fever. Both were diagnosed with hereditary mange. for more than a year
i have been trying every remedy I could get my hands on, but all the
chemical dips and injections seemed to be doing more harm than good,
and the vet kept pushing this ridicculously expensive dog food from
australia but nothing seemed to work. I had heard of raw feeding for
years but the vet said it would cause them to get aggressive and
possibly hurt each other or my wife so I passed. then one day while
checking out yahoo answers, someone had posted a question regarding
mange and one of the less popular answers was to try raw feeding. at
this point, both dogs had an outbreak where both were so uncomfortable
that they were bleeding in several places and had almost lost their
appatites. so i figured why not, anything is better than death. I
started that day with some raw eggs and some pieces of chicken leg and
a couple of chicken hearts, they loved it! It has taken a 3 months to
figure out the correct amounts to feed (they got a little fat after
the first month)but I now have 2 healthy happy dogs WITH HEALTHY SKIN
AND HAIR!!!! I am feed raw meaty bones with some eggs, fish and I know
people say you shouldn't, but they love carrots and beets! whatever,
it worked. So those of you sitting on the fence, give it a try! and as
for all those people who say the dogs will get mean, they do have more
energy, but not mean. this is just past the 3 month mark, I will keep
you all posted as to what happens in the coming months
Cheers
Stan

Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. How long do I "tough love"
Posted by: "dazolevid" dazolevid@yahoo.com dazolevid
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:50 am ((PDT))

Hi all!

I've been scouring this list for the past week or so gleaning all kinds of good info, but now
I have a question that I havent found an answer to (at least, not one that satisfies me
enough).

I have a 3 yr old boxer (about 50 lbs) whom I'm trying to get going on raw. Over the
course of a month or so, I've been trying various things with various levels of success:

- wings (sorta ate. I don't feed them now for all the right reasons)
- bone-in thighs (Only ate if I cut them up. She still chewed the bones, though. On a
hiatus feeding these until she learns to chew bigger pieces)
- whole chicken-backs (25/75 on these. The 25 being the success. Not feeding atm.)
- ground beef (she loves that!)
- pre-ground chicken backs (she loves this also! On hiatus with this until she learns to
eat the breasts)
- Bone in chicken breasts (no go...see below)

For the past 3 weeks, I've been feeding her pre-ground chicken backs. For the first time
since we've had her, there hasn't been an issue with feeding. However, I need to get her
eating RMB's instead. For the past 2 1/2 days, its been the bone in chicken breasts. The
chicken breasts are about the size of her head (she's a small boxer and these are big
breasts :) ) and I thaw the meat (sealed in a zip-top baggie) in water (she won't touch
cold food). She looks at it, licks it, and if I'm lucky, chews it for a few minutes (gets a little
meat off it), then walks away. Yes, I'm doing the tough love thing.

Over the past year, I've always fed her the scraps of raw chicken breast that are left over
when we have a dinner with chicken in it and she has always eaten it with no problem, so I
know she likes the raw chicken.

Some more background on the dog: She's never been a chewer (not toys, not shoes, not
rawhide, not anything, really). We got her as a rescue, and we believe she was used in a
breeding mill.

I have 2 questions:

1) How long do I go with the "tough love" bit before I try to entice her with something
else, or allow myself to get worried about her health? We're currently on the 3rd day of
not eating (Fri/Sat breakfast and dinner, Sun breakfast).

2) Her issue seems to mainly be the chewing aspect of eating. What can I do to help her
're-learn' how to chew?

Thanks for any help/info anyone can provide!

David

Messages in this topic (2)
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6b. Re: How long do I "tough love"
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:50 am ((PDT))

"dazolevid" <dazolevid@...> wrote:

> 1) How long do I go with the "tough love" bit before I try to
entice her with something
> else, or allow myself to get worried about her health? We're
currently on the 3rd day of
> not eating (Fri/Sat breakfast and dinner, Sun breakfast).

Until she eats. And if this is an adult dog being picky, there's no
reason to offer her food twice a day. She refused this morning's
breakfast? I'd offer NO food -- nothing, not a treat, not a nibble
off my plate, absolutely zipola -- until tomorrow morning. There's
no need to "entice" her to eat -- if she's being a hardhead, you have
to show her that YOUR head can be just as hard. A healthy adult dog
simply will not starve itself to death. Remember that dogs are FAR
better at training us than we are at training them -- and she's just
itching to train you how to feed her. Don't let her; you stay in
charge.

Now, after that lecture: it IS possible that there's a valid reason
she's not eating, and only you will be able to discern such a
reason. It could be that her teeth or her jaw or her ears are
causing her pain, such that chewing is no fun. Frankly, I doubt this
is the problem -- if she's eating ground food just fine, and all
you're offering now is bone-in chicken breast (hardly a challenging
meal), I expect she's just waiting for you to process her food & make
it easy for her again. Still, it's a possibility, and you might do
well to inspect her teeth and her ears. (Heck, I consider this
regular maintenance anyway, and often check over all parts of my dog
while scritching on him -- it's a good habit to be in.)

> 2) Her issue seems to mainly be the chewing aspect of eating.
What can I do to help her
> 're-learn' how to chew?

If she's not having any pain issues as I discussed above, she'll
eventually figure it out. There's nothing you need to do except give
her time.

-- sandy & griffin

Messages in this topic (2)
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7a. Re: The slippery elm bark seems to have worked! Yippee!
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:35 am ((PDT))

> The Dachshunds seem much better tonight and I am not hearing the gurgling in the >tummies.

Hi,Cori. Glad to hear they are improving. When my dog gets loose stool prob, it takes 1 day to firm up the poo by feeding more bones but,with watery one,especially this time, took her to recover 2-3 days. I think your older one will recover in a bit,just give them resting time and they be fine.

> I can understand now how only feeding them once a day would make for a tummy not >feeling so well and the need to hurl up bile.

I have read on this list months ago how to change feeding 2 times to 1,but it looked like everything we do for feeding;amount to feed new protin source or numbers of feeding times,all seems to be done slowly and gradually except switching from kibble to raw was cold Turky way and no gradual way.

My guess is if you were feeding 2 times and suddenly went to 1 time of feeding ,dogs may had been expecting to get another meal and didn't get it on time so,ended up bile,and they have got too much new food in one sitting so ended up the result you got
.
If you like to feed once a day,I think you can search the past posts and you should find info on that.

Oh,and maybe,it will help others to following up your story if you keep the same subject name to post relating the same prob you have. I noticed you are posting with different subject names on same prob related post.

Just a thoughts.

yassy

---------------------------------
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Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.

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Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. Re: Slippery Elm powder/storage
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:36 am ((PDT))

>If I were you, I'd order the smaller size. It lasts quite a long time. Herbs do age and lose >their potency, here's a >link;http://gardening.about.com/od/vegetablepatch/a/DryingHerbs.htm

Hi,Gisell. Thanks for your link.

Yes,I was wondering that Slippery Elm powder is NOT sugar or flour,and I thought about potency thing you talking about so,I was asking how to storage and then was going to decide amount I buy. I will use only when my dog get upset tummy so,...

You help me a lot.

>I think I'll double bag my supply and put it in the freezer.

I guess I do the same just like my nuts in freezer:-P

Thanks!

yassy

---------------------------------
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Check out fun summer activities for kids.

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Messages in this topic (15)
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9a. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:54 am ((PDT))

"ptmagi" <ptmagi@...> wrote:
>> That's why I posted the information I did. Because NOW I understand
> WHY it is actually DANGEROUS to feed a dog a combination of kibble and
> raw. And there will likely be other people reading this list who will
> be helped by this information as well.
*****
Okay by me! As long as the end result is a species appropriate diet
for your dog, I am cool with however you get there.

But feeding raw meat with kibble appears to be not nearly as dangerous
as your reference material would have us believe. Certainly there are
hordes of dog owners who add meat to kibble and that--insofar as it's
possible for kibble to produce and sustain a healthy dog--the dogs are
just fine.

[An aside here. I do not support feeding kibble, not by itself, not
with raw meat adornments, so you all please do not get your knickers in
a twist, okay?]

The practice is not healthy because kibble is not healthy. As soon as
you go beyond that very simple reason not to feed kibble with raw, you
get into a morass of misinformation, misinterpretation and
superstitious behaviors. Any time we (me included) come up with
physical reasons why the species cannot eat so and so--especially
reasons for which the inferred results are dire--it's gonna come back
to bite us because people do it and it works.

You get rid of the kibble, you get rid of the stuff that is species
inappropriate. You get rid of what's species inappropriate and you're
feeding a healthy diet.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (16)
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9b. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
Posted by: "Joe Rodriguez" jrod.65@gmail.com PEPITO65
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:09 am ((PDT))

Deb in Col
Thank you for thoroughly explaining why we shouldn't mix kibble with a raw diet. It makes complete scientific sense.
Which brings me to my next point. I find it extremely disturbing that anyone would think that an answer as simple as 'raw is a superior diet' is sufficient. Having such a blind following is why us raw feeders are at times called 'cult-like'. Every part of this diet is scientifically based on the dogs biology and I personally think that there is a scientific basis for every great recommendation we receive on this forum, even if we non-scientist cannot fully articulate the reasons. All scientific data that supports our diet should be posted. That data is the only way to solidify our views.

To that point I thank you for such great information and encourage you to continue.

Joe from CA
-----Original Message-----
From: "ptmagi" <ptmagi@gmail.com>

Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 05:02:09
To:rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogro <mailto:rawfeeding%40yahoogroups.com> ups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "ptmagi" <ptmagi@> wrote:

> My answer was to the question of why one should not feed raw with
> kibble.
>

Your answer was:

"The reason one should not feed raw with kibble is that kibble is a
inferior foodlike substance. There should have to be no more
explanation that that."

That answer is not good enough for folks like me who need to know WHY.
And it's not really even an answer to the question, it's exactly what
I said... simply a blanket statement that raw is superior.

Well, ya know what? I understand that! When I initially posted that
I was feeding both raw and kibble several people here told me not to
do so, but the only reason (other than "all-raw is superior") that was
offered was by one poster who said it caused her animals intestinal
upset. Since it did NOT cause my animal any distress whatsoever after
a week and a half, I figured it wasn't a problem to go ahead and keep
feeding alternating meals of kibble and raw until we had used up the
kibble. Again, I'm well aware that this is not the BEST diet for him,
but heck - I eat McDonald's and all kinds of crap on a relatively
regular basis along with decent, well-rounded meals and, much as I
love this dog, I didn't see any reason that he couldn't also eat
less-than-ideal meals along with ideal ones, too - particluarly since
it would only be for a short time (until the kibble is gone).

That's why I posted the information I did. Because NOW I understand
WHY it is actually DANGEROUS to feed a dog a combination of kibble and
raw. And there will likely be other people reading this list who will
be helped by this information as well.

Okey dokey?

Deb in CO


Messages in this topic (16)
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9c. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
Posted by: "Joseph" scarfinger68@yahoo.com scarfinger68
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:41 am ((PDT))

Well I think both sides have good points. It may sway me to go 100%
RAW.

Joe Stokes, ohio
>

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9d. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:02 am ((PDT))

"Joe Rodriguez" <jrod.65@...> wrote:
>> Which brings me to my next point. I find it extremely disturbing
that anyone would think that an answer as simple as 'raw is a superior
diet' is sufficient. Having such a blind following is why us raw
feeders are at times called 'cult-like'. Every part of this diet is
scientifically based on the dogs biology
*****
Joe, there is indeed a breathtaking amount of scientific evidence
supporting a raw species appropriate diet for our dogs, and I recommend
reading as one can of it. I don't think there's a person on this list
who feels "because" is a functional defense of feeding such a diet.
And I believe that people should have at least a working knowledge of
why "species appropriate" is the best EVERY critter can eat. I would
never suggest challenging the opposition with empty words.

If you find my statement disturbing, perhaps you might take a closer
look at what I wrote. I wrote that it is not necessary to go
beyond "not healthy" when explaining what's wrong with feeding meat and
kible. Feeding meat and kibble is not healthy because kibble is not a
species appropriate diet and what's not a species appropriate diet is
not healthy.

Yes, it's important to know what constitutes "species appropriate" in
order to understand why the very presence of kibble is more "dangerous"
than is the combination of kibble and meat. But once you "get"
(through one's learning curve) what species appropriate is and why it's
the right diet, then you've got enough information to evaluate other
options, including kibble w/meat.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (16)
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9e. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
Posted by: "chaparraltrail" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:50 pm ((PDT))

> Having such a blind following is why us raw
> feeders are at times called 'cult-like'. Every part of this diet
is
> scientifically based on the dogs biology
*****

YES! YES! YES!

Those of you with all the years of practical experienc, and all the
wonderful practical advice, need to understand that the scinece
behind the advice is critical for some of us, and also for
discussing this intelligently with others. It is a major turn-off
(and indeed cult-like) to be told that the facts don't matter.

> I would never suggest challenging the opposition with empty words.
>
> it is not necessary to go
> beyond "not healthy" when explaining what's wrong with feeding
meat and
> kible.
*****

To some of us, that sounds like "...challenging the opposition with
empty words."

Please, those of you for whom "...kibble is not healthy for dogs..."
is enough, do not beat people up who ask specific, on-topic
questions, because they want to know more.

It is legitimate to ask why it wouldn't be better to feed parttially
raw, rather than no raw. And as I found out from my own research
(after being blasted for even asking, right after I joined this
list), there are different opinions, based on incomplete scientific
data...which is none-the-less helpful to know.

> But once you "get"
> (through one's learning curve) what species appropriate is and why
it's
> the right diet, then you've got enough information to evaluate
other
> options, including kibble w/meat.
*****

Not everyone on this list has reached that point, at the time they
join. Certainly not all spouses, parents, or significant others
agree. Fortunately, I found the information I wanted elsewhere, and
did not abandon the idea of raw feeding, just because some folks on
this list were harsh.

Lori

Messages in this topic (16)
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10a. Re: Hi Cori Owen
Posted by: "ittybittybullies" ittybittybullies@yahoo.com ittybittybullies
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:43 am ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Thank you for the info. i will not worry anymore and my little girl's name is Sunny Sunsun
Cervantes, she is a sweetheart of a French Bulldog. I also have her Mommy Gabby and the
very first French Bulldog Rescue in Canada. Niko. It was devestating to hear that Sunny
has Cancer but we are dealing with it and since western medicine has basically said there
is no hope, I have decided to take things into my own hands and try other methods of
help. Starting her on Raw was my first thing now I will go see a holistic Vet next week. ill
keep you all posted.
Erick C

Messages in this topic (5)
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11a. Re: Thank you Bill Carnes
Posted by: "ittybittybullies" ittybittybullies@yahoo.com ittybittybullies
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:45 am ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

awsome thank you Bill. This is what I need to hear. It helps to know so I can convince my
wife not to worry.
Erick C

Messages in this topic (5)
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12. HELP! They are still not pooping and one threw up!
Posted by: "blue eyed" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:35 am ((PDT))

Maybe I picked this up wrong (tell me if I have) but I think you said they were constipated but you have given them Immodium?

That will be the problem then.

Presuming if you stop this and give it time this will sort itself out, otherwise perhaps giving a little butter or sunflower oil will help things along, feed offal and veg meals for a day or two if not.

Excess stomach acid that caused one to vomit will settle on its own, otherwise there are a few things you can do. Cimetidine (from vet) 30 mins before food (works well but I prefer to try the more natural ways first), Charcoal tablet given before or after food (you will know better when to give it to your dog) natural live bio yoghurt with honey 30 mins before meals is another thing to try but remember to give it time to work.

The pepto may also be hindering them when it comes to toilet time as (Im not sure if its the same, please tell me if im wrong) if its like Tums, Settlers etc, a lot of them are made with Calcium Carbonate which, in dogs will help to firm stools, some people who home cook give this as a supplement because their dogs dont get the natural bones, hence need calcium...

Only if the dog hasnt/cant pass anything and will bring up all its meals (because they cant go anywhere) then I would worry about a blockage, is it possible they have eaten any toys, stones or cooked bones? If none of this has worked or if it you are still concerned, take them to the vet,

I hope this is of some help,

Natalie

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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13a. File - Admin-Trim it, Sign it, and Sig lines-PLEASE READ!!!
Posted by: "rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com" rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:01 pm ((PDT))

Hello all! (Don't delete without reading. Yes, there is a test later.)

Firstly, the raw feeding list was established in 1999. It has evolved under a couple of different names, but remains with primarily the same list moderation team.

This primary objective of the list is to provide a place where people who
feed raw food or who want to feed raw can discuss this and closely associated issues.

This is not a list to discuss which kibble or home cooking method is best.
There are other email lists that can provide you with that sort of forum.
The forum here is specifically to discuss appropriate raw diets.

*******A learning environment

We aim at all times to maintain a learning environment.
Every so often someone joins the list with a different agenda.
We work hard in the background to do everything we can to keep discussion on topic at all times, and those who don't find the environment comfortable (about 0.5%), we encourage to join other more suitable email lists.

The most important thing is you join a group you are comfortable with.
We acknowledge the vast differences that exist between people and their learning styles, and as you'll appreciate we can't make everyone happy.

Now for a few of the easy rules:

*******PLEASE TRIM YOUR POSTS

This means when you are replying to an email DO NOT include the ENTIRE EMAIL in your reply.

You can include a SMALL portion of the email you are replying to. Try to stick to a couple of relevant lines.

Delete all headers and footers.

List members who do not trim their posts will be placed on moderation.

**********PLEASE SIGN YOUR MAILS

This means when you are to sign your name at the bottom of every single mail you send to the list.

List members who continue to send unsigned posts after being warned risk having their mail deleted!!

**********CHANGE THE SUBJECT LINE WHEN THE SUBJECT CHANGES
This is a high volume list. Changing subject lines allows people to delete those messages that are topics they have no interest in. IF you change subject lines properly then when responding to a post of the same subject you should not have to include ANY of the email you are responding too since those reading the thread will be able to follow it anyway.

********NO MONSTER SIGNATURES PLEASE!
Several lines are ok but nothing over 4 lines please.
(and please don't advertise in your signatures either)

*********NEW MEMBERS ARE MODERATED.
You will not get OFF of moderate until you prove you can trim your posts and change your subject lines. ALSO the moderators do not have time to trim your posts for you so if a post comes through moderate that is not trimmed it will be sent back to you to trim before it is sent to the list.

If you are currently off of moderate but stop changing subject lines or trimming posts for some reason you will be put back on moderate.

Following these simple rules will make life easier for folks on digest
and save money for those folks who must PAY for their Internet by the amount of time they are on line.

Thanks so much.

List Moderators

Messages in this topic (6)
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14.1. File - Other related lists
Posted by: "rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com" rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:01 pm ((PDT))

This list is part of a group of lists run by the same moderation team. Since several of the lists are quite large we often encourage that threads be taken to some of the smaller subject specific lists so you may want to join the lists that cover issues you are interested in now.

The lists are:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/oldrawguys/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/catandkittenhealth/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/learntoshow/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawcat/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DogHealth/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dogmentor/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawbreeder/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawPup/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RMBLobby/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canineaggression/

And if you are stuck on a particular issue that you just can't seem to work out, try this list:

http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/rawissues

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BasicRaw/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalFerrets/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawVet/
For vets, vet techs and vet students only

There is also a list of lists where other raw feeding lists can be found. Many are breed specific, location specific or subject specific.

http://www.rawlearning.com

Thanks from the moderation team!

Messages in this topic (116)
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15. Frothy vomit
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:51 pm ((PDT))

I gave Poe (50lbs german shepherd/husky X) some pork
yesturday and I'm pretty sure it was enhanced (I
checked the package but it didn't say anything on it).

Last night she spent the night vomiting up what looks
like frothy saliva. All day today she's been vomiting
up the same stuff, every half hour or so. (much more
frequently when she gets excited)...
She's not drinking any water, though she has access to
it and she hasn't even contemplated eating her
dinner...

Has anyone experienced this? How long does it last?
Should I take her to the vet? My mom says her dog did
the same thing when given enhanced pork but it wasn't
quite as bad as this. I'm hoping the frothy saliva is
just her body trying to get rid of the enhanced stuff
and that by tomorrow she'll be feeling better.

Other than that (that I know of) she hasn't eaten
anything other than her raw meat.

Any suggestions?

Nathalie

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