[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11959

There are 20 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
From: ptmagi
1b. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
From: tottime47
1c. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
From: costrowski75
1d. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
From: costrowski75
1e. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
From: ginny wilken
1f. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
From: ptmagi

2.1. Re: new to raw
From: linoleum5017

3a. Stress and diarrehea, Yep!
From: coriowen

4a. Re: stumped my vet
From: jennifer mcfaden

5a. Hi everyone.
From: ittybittybullies
5b. Re: Hi everyone.
From: coriowen
5c. Re: Hi everyone.
From: carnesbill

6a. Re: The Constipation has started...
From: Laurie Swanson

7a. Re: Diabetes and Raw Feeding
From: emmiemileslouie

8a. Garlic tips
From: sazer01
8b. Re: Garlic tips
From: Theresa
8c. Re: Garlic tips
From: cmhausrath
8d. Re: Garlic tips
From: cmhausrath

9a. Re: Slippery Elm powder-Cats?
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

10. The slippery elm bark seems to have worked! Yippee!
From: coriowen

Messages
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1a. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
Posted by: "ptmagi" ptmagi@gmail.com ptmagi
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:02 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> This is FAR too complicated a rationale.

It may be too complicated for some, Chris, but it is the explanation
that worked for ME and I shared it for those like me who need reasons
that have some chemistry/science/logic behind them rather than a
simplistic "Raw is superior. Period. The end."

Deb in CO

Messages in this topic (11)
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1b. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:03 pm ((PDT))

Lol Sandy,

You do have quite a boy there......I love the look in his eyes.......

Carol,Charkee & Moli

>

Now if only I'd waited a moment, I could've just let Chris O say it
> once, instead of sounding like a parrot.
>
> -- sandy (squaaaawk!) & griffin (oooo, parrot, I've never had that!)
>

Messages in this topic (11)
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1c. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:33 pm ((PDT))

"cmhausrath" <cmhausrath@...> wrote:
> Now if only I'd waited a moment, I could've just let Chris O say it
> once, instead of sounding like a parrot.
*****
Poppycock!
You were writing reiteratively.
And if ten seconds ago there was no such word, there is now.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (11)
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1d. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:38 pm ((PDT))

"ptmagi" <ptmagi@...> wrote:
>I shared it for those like me who need reasons
> that have some chemistry/science/logic behind them rather than a
> simplistic "Raw is superior. Period. The end."
*****
No no no.
That's the answer to a different question. That's that answer to why
should dogs be fed a species appropriate diet.

My answer was to the question of why one should not feed raw with
kibble.

It's important to keep this stuff straight, lest there's a quiz later.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (11)
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1e. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:39 pm ((PDT))

On Aug 25, 2007, at 6:16 PM, cmhausrath wrote:

>
> Now if only I'd waited a moment, I could've just let Chris O say it
> once, instead of sounding like a parrot.
>
> -- sandy (squaaaawk!) & griffin (oooo, parrot, I've never had that!)

Geez, this is going around tonight! We have all become knee-jerk raw
feeding reactionaries and supporters of the simillimum...

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
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1f. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
Posted by: "ptmagi" ptmagi@gmail.com ptmagi
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:41 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "ptmagi" <ptmagi@> wrote:

> My answer was to the question of why one should not feed raw with
> kibble.
>

Your answer was:

"The reason one should not feed raw with kibble is that kibble is a
inferior foodlike substance. There should have to be no more
explanation that that."

That answer is not good enough for folks like me who need to know WHY.
And it's not really even an answer to the question, it's exactly what
I said... simply a blanket statement that raw is superior.

Well, ya know what? I understand that! When I initially posted that
I was feeding both raw and kibble several people here told me not to
do so, but the only reason (other than "all-raw is superior") that was
offered was by one poster who said it caused her animals intestinal
upset. Since it did NOT cause my animal any distress whatsoever after
a week and a half, I figured it wasn't a problem to go ahead and keep
feeding alternating meals of kibble and raw until we had used up the
kibble. Again, I'm well aware that this is not the BEST diet for him,
but heck - I eat McDonald's and all kinds of crap on a relatively
regular basis along with decent, well-rounded meals and, much as I
love this dog, I didn't see any reason that he couldn't also eat
less-than-ideal meals along with ideal ones, too - particluarly since
it would only be for a short time (until the kibble is gone).

That's why I posted the information I did. Because NOW I understand
WHY it is actually DANGEROUS to feed a dog a combination of kibble and
raw. And there will likely be other people reading this list who will
be helped by this information as well.

Okey dokey?

Deb in CO

Messages in this topic (11)
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2.1. Re: new to raw
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:02 pm ((PDT))

Mary LC,

I'm not an expert, but I've been rawfeeding for a few months.... from
what I've read of the posts here, mucus in the poop is a dog body's
way of compensating for a change in the diet. Since you've only been
at it a week, I suspect that's the cause. If it goes on for weeks
w/out end, then perhaps there's a problem. Give it some time.

The food you mentioned sounds fine - don't change meats until the poop
stabilizes (I imagine that sounds strange.) Usually one week is
recommended for adjusting to a new meat. This list suggests 80%
rawmeat, 10%bone, 10%organs.

Before trying a new meat, try a bit of organ, which is richer than
meat, and may cause a bit of loose stool. In any case, do not let
that discourage you, just try it. Then, at about the rate of one
protein per week, make changes. If your dog seems to have trouble
with one, you can always retrace your steps and go back to one you
know is 'good.' Variety is important, but equally so is time for your
dog to adjust to each new food.

Your husband will like the healthy body, great coat, and white teeth,
if you hang in there.

Lynne

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Lee" <machemlc@...> wrote:
>
> I have a 10 lb Tzu. Only been "raw" for 1 week. Her bm's have a lot
of mucus in them or nothing but mucus which is worrying my husband. I
give her a bone-in-thigh one day and part of a breast(no bone)the next
(no skin & little fat). Can I tell him this will change just give it
time...is this normal? Thanks,

Mary Lee Cook

Messages in this topic (37)
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3a. Stress and diarrehea, Yep!
Posted by: "coriowen" COwen98@aol.com coriowen
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:03 pm ((PDT))

Sandy,
I am part of another group that is a Dachshund group and when my old
Doxie was dying we all put two and two together and I really think I
caused Kaycee, my two year old, to lower her immune system by my high
stress levels and BAM the staph hit her! I would not doubt at all if
you hit the nail on the head and believe me, I am thinking about it.
I know they are much more in tune with us than we will ever be with
them. Animals, sans humans, communicate on such amazing levels.
Thanks for the input and I am sure it is me over stressing. I'm
trying to chill out and let everything be. lol Deep breaths....
Cori

> Cori, this might not be your problem at all, but I wanted to at
least
> raise it as a possibility: you seem to have had a very stressed-out
> summer (and I'm very sorry for your loss), and it seems to have
> already affected your 2-yr-old Dachshund (the staph infection). I
> also go through high-stress periods, and I have FINALLY, after
> putting myself through a lot of misery (and expense at the vet's),
> learned that MY stress really affects my dog. As in, I get a bit
> stressed, he senses it and gets tense himself. His stools get
loose
> for no reason I can see (since I'm always initially blind to the
> stress level) ... I get more stressed because I'm worried about
> what's wrong with him ... he starts waking me up in the middle of
the
> night for potty runs ... I get really stressed about his digestive
> stress ... and so on. It is NOT a pretty picture. Add to that
sleep
> deprivation (both of ours) from running outside all night, and it's
> really ugly.
>
> It might be worth at least investigating -- it may be that relaxing
a
> bit could really help BOTH of you.
>
> -- sandy & griffin (a big doofus, but a sensitive doofus
nonetheless)
>

Messages in this topic (14)
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4a. Re: stumped my vet
Posted by: "jennifer mcfaden" cadet972@yahoo.com cadet972
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:03 pm ((PDT))

I need to try and do this with my vet he hates the fact I feed raw two our huskies though how fast we brought back two neglect girls shook him,lol. and on the wolf species (lupus -- is latin for wolf). He what I pulled off the us fish and wildlife service --
Wolf, Red (Canis rufus) ; Wolf, Gray (Canis lupus) ; this chart from defenders of wild life. maybe this help show the difference.

Gray Wolf
(Canis lupus) Red Wolf
(Canis rufus) Coyote
(Canis latrans) Fox
(Vulpes or Urocyon) Size 5-6 feet long from nose to tail 3-4 feet long from nose to tail 3-4 feet long from nose to tail 3-3.5 feet long from nose to tail Weight 80-120 pounds 40-80 pounds 30-40 pounds 12 pounds Color gray, tan, brown, black, or white reddish brown, black, or gray reddish brown, tan, or gray red-brown (red fox) grizzled- gray (gray fox) Eye color Yellow, green, or brownish Yellow, green, or brownish Yellow to green Yellow to brown
darkstardog <darkstardog@charter.net> wrote:
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Morledzep@... wrote:
>
>>In a message dated 8/25/2007 1:55:22 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>> darkstardog@... writes:
>>>I don't think that's correct. The dog is a different subspecies
>>>from the gray wolf.
>
>
> nope.. grey wolves and domesticated dogs are the exact same
>species.. all domesticated dogs are just selectively inbred grey
>wolves.
>

I didn't say they weren't the same species - I said they weren't the
same subspecies.

But I said it wrong. I shouldn't have said dogs are a different
subspecies from the *grey wolf* because I guess that name goes for the
whole species. But I think it's the case that dogs are different
subspecies from wolves categorized by subspecies, such as Canis lupus
lupus (the European grey wolf) or Canis lupus lycaon or Canis
lupus nubilis etc, in whatever way the species Canis lupus is
currently classified. Maybe it's more complicated than I think though.

Marty

Jennifer McFaden
Free Spirit Kennel of Virginia

www.freewebs.com/temberwolf2781

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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5a. Hi everyone.
Posted by: "ittybittybullies" ittybittybullies@yahoo.com ittybittybullies
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:03 pm ((PDT))

I am happy to say that I have started feeding my sick little girl raw. Sunny was diagnosed with
Cancer in her nasal passage and there was nothing that western medecine could do for her
so I am looking into other things buit I was told to switch her from Kibble to raw first things
first. I have done that now and I will continue her treatments and other good sudgestions you
may have. I am starting her on ground up chicken with bone first. She had no problem eating
it and she did not throw up, whcih I was worried about. Now the only thing that concerns me
is the Salmonelia problem,
Do I need to worry about this or have any of you ever heard of any case of transferring the
desease from dog to human. My wife is worried about this cause our doggies kiss us all the
time and I am just curious to know?

Erick C

Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: Hi everyone.
Posted by: "coriowen" COwen98@aol.com coriowen
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:41 pm ((PDT))

Erick,
I'm very sorry to hear Sunny has cancer and I hope she beats it-
CANCER SUCKS! How old is she and what breed?
I just started my 4 dogs on chicken on Wed. and I am having some
diarrehea problems with my two Dachshunds but no problems whatsoever
with my two big dogs, Mastiff and Doberman. I have used the search
button and lots and lots of help from the great folks on here and it
has worked wonders. They told me to get "slippery elm bark" for the
upset tummies and I did that today and both girls seem MUCH better.
As far as the cross contamination, it can happen but just try to
clean up after handling and don't get too concerned about it. My
husband and I are 40 and we remember growing up never knowing nor
worrying when our moms were handling chicken and I don't remember us
getting sick very often at all. Maybe we will all build up an
immunity to it again. I grew up on a ranch and we ate BEEF and it
was around us RAW A LOT and we would even eat raw beef before it got
cook, why we did that I have no clue but didn't get sick, so I don't
get real concerned about it all. I eat lots of batters that have raw
eggs all the time and I don't get sick so who knows???
Anyway, good luck getting Sunny healthy. You never know, I have a
friend that feeds raw to her Great Danes and one was diagnosed with
cancer a year and a half ago and was only supposed to live about 6
months at the most, he will be 10 in Oct. That is a good age for a
Dane that is cancer-free!
Cori

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ittybittybullies"
<ittybittybullies@...> wrote:
>
> I am happy to say that I have started feeding my sick little girl
raw. Sunny was diagnosed with
> Cancer in her nasal passage and there was nothing that western
medecine could do for her
> so I am looking into other things buit I was told to switch her
from Kibble to raw first things
> first. I have done that now and I will continue her treatments and
other good sudgestions you
> may have. I am starting her on ground up chicken with bone first.
She had no problem eating
> it and she did not throw up, whcih I was worried about. Now the
only thing that concerns me
> is the Salmonelia problem,
> Do I need to worry about this or have any of you ever heard of any
case of transferring the
> desease from dog to human. My wife is worried about this cause our
doggies kiss us all the
> time and I am just curious to know?
>
> Erick C
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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5c. Re: Hi everyone.
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:06 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ittybittybullies"
<ittybittybullies@...> wrote:
>
> I am starting her on ground up chicken with bone first.

No need to feed ground unless your dog's cancer prevents her from
chewing. Virtually all dogs can and often do eat RAW chicken bones
that are of course covered in meat. She won't get the full benefit
of a raw diet if she doesn't eat whole animal parts.

> Now the only thing that concerns me
> is the Salmonelia problem,
> Do I need to worry about this or have any of you ever heard of
> any case of transferring the
> desease from dog to human.

This is not a problem. Of the 9,000+ members of this list, I can't
recall a single post from anyone catching salmonella, e-coli, or any
other bacterial disease from thier raw fed dog or handling meat for
them. Most people handle raw meat most every day while feeding
their family.

> My wife is worried about this cause our doggies kiss us all the
> time and I am just curious to know?

Most of our doggies kiss all the time. They kiss us, our children,
grandchildren, and visitors to our house. They also kiss our
parents and grandparents. Spreading disease is definately no more
of a problem from a raw fed dog than a kibble fed dog. It's
probably closer to a problem from kibble fed dogs.

I've been feeding raw for almost 5 years and never give it a thought.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: The Constipation has started...
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:05 pm ((PDT))

Mandy,

That's great if the basement works--you could also gate off the kitchen
or teach them to eat on their own blankets/towels in the living room.
Many of us have done that very easily. Just put the food down on the
blanket and if they try to take it off, put it back on. After a few
times, they'll probably learn they can eat in peace if they keep it on
the blanket. Some others use crates, etc.

What cut of pork did you give Louie? He might just take a bit longer
to figure out how to do this! :-) And sometimes they have to build up
jaw strength for the harder bones (pork shouldn't be too hard, it's
just harder than chicken).

Laurie

Messages in this topic (10)
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7a. Re: Diabetes and Raw Feeding
Posted by: "emmiemileslouie" lklora@sbcglobal.net emmiemileslouie
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:43 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Rhonda" <rhonda18@...> wrote:
>
> I went looking for the yahoo group that has a raw diabetic dog group
> and couldn't find it can you give me the site adderss?
>
> Thank you
>
> Rhonda

Hi Rhonda,

Just went to yahoo groups and typed in raw diabetic dog and saw it.
Don't have the site address as I am not a member of that group.

Linda

Messages in this topic (6)
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8a. Garlic tips
Posted by: "sazer01" steveazer@cox.net sazer01
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:41 pm ((PDT))

I've been reading that some people add some garlic to their dogs food to help as a natural
flea deterrant. I'd love some advise on how much to add, in what form (chopped, minced,
fresh, etc) and how often. My dog is a 50 pound 2 year old Portuguese Water Dog. Thanks!

Steve (I like garlic on pizza)
Diego (I don't care if my dad has garlic breath)

Messages in this topic (4)
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8b. Re: Garlic tips
Posted by: "Theresa" bluerose4109@yahoo.com bluerose4109
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:03 pm ((PDT))

I would like to second that request. My babies have "little guys" (fleas) and I paniced and gave them each a garlic oil capsule and rubbed them down with it too. One of my babies is only 6 lbs and the other is 40 lbs. I was worried after the fact that maybe that whole garlic capsule was WAY TOO much, especially for the 6lb guy.
I think I am going go back to frontline, b/c I dont know what I am doing. UUGGHHH.
Theresa

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Messages in this topic (4)
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8c. Re: Garlic tips
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:55 am ((PDT))

"sazer01" <steveazer@...> wrote:

> I've been reading that some people add some garlic to their dogs
food to help as a natural
> flea deterrant.

Okay, well actually I can't help with advice about garlic, cuz I've
never used it. BUT I wanted to at least weigh in with two
alternative ideas:

First, a healthy dog is really and truly not attractive to fleas.
(Or ticks, or parasites in general.) Raw feeding is the first step
to great health. I've been feeding raw for 4 years, in central
Virginia (which has plenty of fleas & ticks), and haven't had a
problem with pests in at least a couple years. A week or two ago my
dog DID walk through some tick eggs, and had about a million seed
ticks on his front legs -- but most of those dried up & died quickly,
and I've not found a single adult tick. The seed ticks were dead &
gone within maybe 36 hours. I've seen a couple fleas this summer,
but they've literally jumped on & right back off my dog. Pretty
cool, really.

Second, diatomaceous earth (DE) is a GREAT flea / tick / mite
killer. If you have carpet (rather than hard floors), you can just
dust it around lightly after you vacuum. I started this at the
beginning of the summer & have hardly seen a bug in the house since.
More info can be found on RawChat, because this really is getting OT
for the main list.

But I say all this because I've never quite gotten over the fact that
garlic is just not species-appropriate food for dogs. Maybe it
works, but if the dog can be made healthy, so that parasites aren't a
problem, isn't that a superior solution?

-- sandy (isn't garlic one of the food groups for people??) & griffin
(what's garlic?)

Messages in this topic (4)
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8d. Re: Garlic tips
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:03 am ((PDT))

Theresa <bluerose4109@...> wrote:

> I think I am going go back to frontline, b/c I dont know what I am
doing. UUGGHHH.

Hey Theresa --

Frontline will do your guys no favors! How about bringing this topic
over to RawChat, where our discussions can range a little more freely?
Meanwhile, don't panic! Fleas can be dispatched by non-toxic means,
and while it may take a bit longer, it'll do no lasting harm to your
dog (as pesticides will).

Oh, and for those who don't belong to RC yet, come join us:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawchat

-- sandy & griffin

Messages in this topic (4)
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9a. Re: Slippery Elm powder-Cats?
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:42 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/25/2007 9:24:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Penelope
Quillen writes:

Can this Slippery Elm be used with cats, also?

__
Sure can. I got some capsules at a health food store, opened them up and
split one among 3 cats a couple of times early in their rawfeeding experience
when feeding their first pork, that I thought might be rich for them. I just
sprinkled it on the meat and they never paid it any attention. Of course, I do
put a dollop of fish oil on new meat to entice them, which might have had
something to do with their acceptance of the SEBP. :)

Lynda

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Messages in this topic (4)
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10. The slippery elm bark seems to have worked! Yippee!
Posted by: "coriowen" COwen98@aol.com coriowen
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:42 pm ((PDT))

Thanks everyone for this great tidbit. The Dachshunds seem much
better tonight and I am not hearing the gurgling in the tummies. I
fed them a second smaller meal of chicken thigh with bone mixed with
the SEB and they both ate ravishly. The older Dachs still has watery
diarrehea but I am not going to fret, she seems very content to be
let out every 4-5 hours so I can handle that and I know, "this to
shall pass"- no pun intended! LOL I did just give both of them a
little boneless breast treat with a sprinkle of SEB on it before
bedtime so there is no vomit of bile tonight, we'll see how that
goes. I can understand now how only feeding them once a day would
make for a tummy not feeling so well and the need to hurl up bile.
I'll report in the a.m. how it all goes tonight. BTW, I don't work
so having to wake up in the middle of the night with them is ok
because I can catch a nap at any time during the day when it is HOT
here in Texas. I only ride my horses when it cools down in the
evenings, so my schedule is very flexible. Take care everyone and
REALLY, thank you very much for all the support and help.

Cori
P.S. I did buy the probiotics but I just put it in the fridge and
will experiment with that if I ever have the poop problem again and
see how that goes. I am armed for future problems.

Messages in this topic (1)
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