[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11962

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Panting and lethargy
From: Laurie Swanson
1b. Re: Panting and lethargy
From: tottime47

2a. Re: Puppies and variety of meats
From: Morledzep@aol.com

3a. Feeding Big .... and Hornets Too!
From: woofwoofgrrl
3b. Re: Feeding Big .... and Hornets Too!
From: Giselle

4a. New to Raw
From: Cathy
4b. Re: New to Raw
From: carnesbill
4c. Re: New to Raw
From: Giselle

5a. Re: blanket statement
From: Giselle
5b. Re: blanket statement
From: tottime47

6a. Re: Photos of raw eating
From: Jamie Dolan

7a. Re: My dogs eating a "Real" Chicken
From: tottime47

8a. Why not to feed raw with kibble
From: Giselle
8b. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
From: Sandee Lee

9a. Re: shiba new to raw with watery diarrhea and vomiting
From: carnesbill

10a. Need support on raw feeding
From: vickies_28
10b. Re: Need support on raw feeding
From: Casey Post
10c. Re: Need support on raw feeding
From: Sandee Lee

11a. Re: Frothy vomit
From: carnesbill
11b. Re: Frothy vomit
From: cmhausrath

12a. Re: apple cider vinegar & digestive enzymes
From: Giselle
12b. Re: apple cider vinegar & digestive enzymes
From: carnesbill

13.1. Re: newbie
From: Giselle

14.1. Questions
From: LittleGoldWoman
14.2. Re: Questions
From: Sandee Lee

Messages
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1a. Re: Panting and lethargy
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:35 pm ((PDT))

Hi Deb,

Not being there, it's hard to tell what's going on. Make sure the meat
isn't enhanced/injected w/broth, etc. If so, stop feeding it. It's a
curious thing, but we have had a couple threads on this in the past--
you might want to search the archives. If I'm remembering correctly,
this has happened to a few newbie dogs and I believe a specific cause
was not really found and the issue seemed to resolve itself. I can't
remember the size/age of your dog--is that a lot of food for a meal for
him? Did he work really hard at the meal? Maybe he's just full and
tired.

I personally wouldn't give him any more food tonight.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ptmagi" <ptmagi@...> wrote:

Today, he's barely moving and he's panting a lot

Messages in this topic (3)
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1b. Re: Panting and lethargy
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:35 pm ((PDT))

Deb,

Have you got some Slippery Elm Bark? If not run down to the store and
get some and give him a capsul or two at different times this evening
and tonight and skip his supper.....

It homestly sounds like he's just full...remember when dogs first
start raw they need a little smaller meals to get adjusted....

If you get some SEB into him and he doesn't seem to be feeling better,
then you might have him looked at, but it sounds like a lot of food to
me......

Hope this helps..

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ptmagi" <ptmagi@...> wrote:
>
> I'm a little concerned about our pup, Atticus. Today is the first day
> of 100% raw for him. He had a chicken leg quarter at 9:30 am and a
> chicken breast quarter at 2:00 pm. The first time I gave him a
> chicken leg quarter several days ago he was energetic and happy as a
> lark after eating. Today, he's barely moving and he's panting a lot

> Deb in CO

Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. Re: Puppies and variety of meats
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:39 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/26/2007 2:13:06 PM Pacific Standard Time,
ptmagi@gmail.com writes:

I think I read that it's okay to offer a variety of meats to puppies
from the git-go rather than starting off with one protein for a week
or two, then adding another for the next couple of weeks, etc., but
after searching for info on the topic I'm coming up empty-handed. Is
this true or did I dream it? And if it's true, up to what age is this
considered safe? Or does it apply only to pups who go straight to raw
after weaning?

Deb,

lets see.. the akita pup was 8 weeks when she came home, the great dane pup
was approximately 3 months, and Tara Belle was 4 months. All were weaned to
kibble, and none of them ever got a bite of kibble after they walked in my door.

i fed them exactly what the big dogs were eating every day, and we never had
any digestive upset at all. Tara Belle's first meal when she came home was
pork hearts and green tripe. Michiko (akita pup) had chicken thighs), Merlin
had turkey wings and green tripe.

I'm not saying it's right... but it worked for us.. more than once with no
consequences.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Feeding Big .... and Hornets Too!
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:07 pm ((PDT))

Out of sheer laziness, this morning I decided to feed BIG. I took the
two pork shoulders in my fridge and left them on the patio, one for each
whippet. (After I cut a chunk off for my BC, alas due to her kidney
issues, she will never know the pleasure of eating herself silly)

Instead of the happy eating frenzy I expected, I got a look of "HuH?"
Zinger, my 4 year old, got into it and ate a meals worth. But Comet, my
1 year old seems genuinely perturbed at this change. Go figure!

I put them back out again for dinner and Zinger really got into it.
When he ate enough off it, that he felt he could move it, he carried it
all wobbly legged to his favorite spot in the yard. It was really cute
watching this 25lb dog carry 7 lbs of pork across the yard! Comet ate
some for dinner, but not that much, and he still seems perturbed. I'm
not sure what to make of his response.

I also learned something new this morning....hornets eat meat! I had no
idea! I went to pick up the uneaten portion this morning and there were
4 bees on it (which I looked up on the web and it turned out to be a
hornet) - one of them had a tiny little piece of meat between it's front
legs and was nibbling on it! I never though hornets and raw meat would
be a cute combination! Who knew!

Christine

Messages in this topic (2)
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3b. Re: Feeding Big .... and Hornets Too!
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:45 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Christine!
Just like some dogs don't 'get' at first that a chicken
leg or breast is 'real' food after a lifetime of kibble, feeding Big
for the first time can also puzzle dogs. Dogs look at context and
smells and outlines for recognition, the 'whole picture', if you will.
So, changes in what they have come to recognize as 'the norm' can
throw them, even if we think that 'its natural' that they should take
to eating raw or eating Big Food right away.

Some messages posted by newbies have stated that their dogs act 'sad'
or guilty, or run away when served raw food as if they are scared of
it; they may just be reacting to early conditioning and be viewing
this as 'people food', which they are not allowed to touch, or else!

Sounds like your guys will 'get it' next time, there *will* be a
feeding frenzy! lol But don't be surprised if it takes them awhile to
figure out that they can eat until they are sated; this too, is
something they will have to learn, or unlearn; meals only come in
small amounts.
Look out for 'cannon butt', or loose runny stools - large amounts of
pork with untrimmed fat and skin can have that effect at first.

You could try putting a bit of 'bait' meat out for the hornets, to
lure them away from the dog's food. Put it up where the dogs can't
reach it, and away from your patio and areas where you and the dogs
hang out. You'll have to replenish it frequently, I think, as it will
dry out or turn nasty. Or, you could put these hornet traps up;
http://www.yankeegardener.com/wasp_trap.html
http://www.pestcontrolcanada.com/INSECTS/wasp_traps.htm
http://www.amazon.com/Sterling-Rescue-Yellowjacket-Hornets-Control/dp/B00004TBKL
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Out of sheer laziness, this morning I decided to feed BIG. I took the
> two pork shoulders in my fridge and left them on the patio, one for
each
> whippet. <snip> I never though hornets and raw meat would
> be a cute combination! Who knew!
>
> Christine
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. New to Raw
Posted by: "Cathy" csc12122005@yahoo.com csc12122005
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:09 pm ((PDT))

Hello,

I have a 3 year old, 77 pound, 3 foot tall Greyhound that has been
diagnosed, misdiagnosed etc. He was diagnosed over 2 years ago with
hypothyroidism and then about 6 months ago with IBD. Well as it turns
out our regular vet thought the specialist was incorrect and he his
IBD was caused by the thyroid and maybe it was a misdiagnosed. Well as
we weaned off the high doses of soloxin he actually improved.

Kibble of any kind never worked (even organic) and I have wanted to go
raw for over one year but vet said no. Well about four months ago we
went to home cooking and he gained back the 10 pounds he lost! Yeah!!!!

Well no we are the road to my ultimate goal going raw. He still likes
his cooked food about once a day.

I am looking for help on planning a diet for him. We are currently
giving him chicken legs, wings, turkey necks (very large ones). He
does not like thighs (chicken) and the turkey thighs got stuck on his
molars, so I am a little scared of these.

Do we need to supplement? When do you add beef (or something else)?
What about pork?

Thanks for any help you can provide.
Cathy
AKA Bengals Mom/Slave

Messages in this topic (23)
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4b. Re: New to Raw
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:47 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Cathy" <csc12122005@...> wrote:
>
> I am looking for help on planning a diet for him. We are
currently
> giving him chicken legs, wings, turkey necks (very large ones).
He
> does not like thighs (chicken) and the turkey thighs got stuck
> on his
> molars, so I am a little scared of these.

You are feeding too small except for the turkey necks. I would go
with chicken quarters, halves, or whole chickens. I prefer to feed
quarters and backs only as I don't have to cut those up. They
are "ready to feed". :)

I suggest feeding nothing but chicken for a week or so. Then add
turkey to the diet for a week alternating with the chicken. After
that you can add something else, perhaps pork. Again alternating
pork with the other two. If all is ok a week later, try some beef,
then lamb or whatever else you can get. I wouldn't feed any organs
for a month or two.

> Do we need to supplement?

Assuming you have a healthy dog, no.

Get the book "Work Wonders" by Tom Lonsdale either at

http://www.dogwise.com or at http://www.amazon.com (cheaper).

A few informative web sites are:
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm (My web page)
http://rawfeddogs.net/

--- be sure and check the recipes page.
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (23)
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4c. Re: New to Raw
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:23 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Cathy!
Welcome to the raw side!: )

My recommendations to begin raw feeding:

• You want to start with 2-3% of your dog's IDEAL ADULT weight. Tweak
with more meat if your dog gets a bit skinny, a bit less if your dog
gets 'fluffy' over the space of a few weeks. You might start out by
weighing your dog, and weighing her meals; but most peeps don't
continue once they get more comfortable and casual about feeding raw.

• Ditch the kibble - plenty of discussion on this list over the past
few days about why kibble and raw don't mix; just let it suffice that
your dog can reap the benefits of raw faster and more completely if
you donate the kibble to your local shelter asap. A species
appropriate raw whole prey model diet doesn't include kibble.

• Feed at least 2 meals a day to start with. Feeding once a day (or
even less often) can be a great feeding plan for a dog, but not at
first; too much new food at a meal can cause digestive upset.

• Feed a little less at each meal at first than you think you should.
Too much new food over the course of a day or two can cause digestive
upset, too.

• Stay with one new protein for at least a week, maybe two. You want
the dog to be showing you he is well adjusted to the new protein
before adding in new stuff. Take it slow; add only one new protein
every week or two.

• You can switch to a new protein by just serving it at the next meal,
and all the meals after that for a week or so, or you can add a bite
or two of the new protein in with the 'old' protein, gradually adding
more new and less 'old' over several days, until you are feeding all
new and no 'old'. Whatever works for your own dog.

• Boneless meals tend to produce loose, even runny poops. A judicious
amount of bone in a newbie dog's meal will tend to firm things up.
There will be less poop overall; raw is much more digestible and less
goes to waste. Poops will be less frequent also, for the same reason.
Bone adds bulk, so sloppy poops can be firmed up by some (don't go
overboard!) bone at each meal at first.

• Chicken is recommended as the first protein to be introduced for
several reasons: its cheap, easy to obtain, easy to cut into different
dog meal sized portions, you can trim visible fat and skin if you need
to tweak, most dogs will eat it and its pretty bland. Read the labels
on the chicken before you buy; don't get any that say its enhanced
with flavoring/seasonings or salt injected. Some dogs get itchy or
vomit or get true diarrhea from enhancements. Whole chickens are the
best to start with, ime. Cut into portion sizes with kitchen shears,
as needed.

• Some newbie dogs vomit or poop bone bits. There is an adjustment
period, so you want some bone in most meals at first, but too much
bone may not be digested and the dog will just hork it up or poop it
out. NPs, its just the dog's way of saying "Too much right now, thanks."

• Some dogs will get the Bile Vomits or Bone Bile Vomits (BV or BBV)
when new to raw simply because their schedules or routines of eating
have been changed. When a dog adjusts to raw, his gastric 'juices'
become much more acid, to better digest the raw meat and bone. If he's
expecting a meal at a certain time, the 'juices start flowing' in
anticipation of getting a meal. When the meal doesn't happen, the dog
often will hork up the yellowish, foamyish bile, with or without
bones. Sometimes they hork up BBV because raw digests faster than
kibble, the tummy is empty, so it must be time to eat. NP for the dog,
he''s gotten rid of the irritation. He may react as if he feels bad,
just because you are upset that he did it on your new comforter, or on
the white carpet.

• A lot of dogs don't drink as much water or as frequently when
switched to all raw, all the time. Raw has a pretty high water content
and most dogs are forced by dry as dust kibble to over drink water to
compensate in order for their bodies to process it. If only fed raw,
you don't need to coax your dog to drink more water or even broth,
just offer plenty of fresh water, he'll drink when he needs it.

• True diarrhea is not just loose, runny or sloppy poops. It is
frequent, liquid or watery explosions of poo that a dog cannot 'hold
back'. True diarrhea, imo, is caused by disease, parasites or
inappropriate food or non food items. The occasional loose poops, even
over a few days, from feeding a few too many boneless meals or
introing a new protein or feeding too much organ at one whack, is not
diarrhea.

• The general rule of thumb for feeding raw is: 80% meat (muscle, fat,
skin, connective tissue) 10% EDIBLE bone (not all bone that is served
must be consumed) and 10% organs (5% of this is liver, the rest is as
much variety as you can find and afford) This is not an immutable
'daily requirement'. Balance Over Time, over weeks and months is one
of the raw feeding mottos. ; ) If you feed true whole prey, that is;
entire animals at a time, then the meat to bone to organ ratios are
'perfect' for that creature. Whatever parts your dog can eat of is
right for him. In the wild, wolves will eat off a large animal carcass
for days, and each wolf gets different parts. If times are hard, they
will consume the entire critter, including skin, fur, less 'choice'
parts and will even crack the hard long bones to get to the marrow. If
pickin's are plentiful, they will eat the easiest and choice parts,
and then move on. Because of variances in size, age, personality, life
experiences and dental ability, a particular dog will be able to
consume, or not: all or part or some or a little bone from any
particular animal. If you feed 'Frankenprey', that is; a variety of
protein, body parts and organs from different animals, to simulate the
whole prey experience for your dogs, you are challenged to find enough
variety in all these aspects for optimal health.

• Organs - don't try to add a lot of organs or organ variety at first.
An easy way to satisfy the human need to "Do it all, right now!", is
to toss the gizzards and heart you get with your whole chickens in
with a bonier meal, a little piece at a meal. Heart and gizzards are
organs, but should be fed as meatymeat. The liver can be cut up into
teensy bits, and fed a tiny bit at a time with a meal. This will allow
you to feed organs, but shouldn't cause runny stools. If it does, cut
it out and freeze those parts for later down the line.
My list of organs, so I don't forget to look for variety; liver, heart
(fed as meat), cheek meat, head meat, salivary glands, feet, lips,
oxtail, spleen, tongue (usually fed as meat), weasand meat
(esophagus), tripe, stomach, sweetbread (thymus & pancreas), ears,
kidneys, brain, tripe, poultry giblets - heart, liver, gizzard and
snouts. Heads, with all the ‘stuff’, including eyes.
"offal" - viscera and trimmings of a butchered animal often considered
inedible by humans.

• SEBP - Slippery Elm Bark Powder. This is a good innocuous herb that
soothes the stomach and digestive system. If you feel you need to
intervene when your dog has loose poops or constipation, this is the
way to go. SEBP is "used to treat diarrhea, constipation, enteritis,
colitis & irritations of the stomach. Used to soothe, protect &
lubricate mucous membranes. Also, used to relieve the discomforts of
kennel cough & other types of bronchitis."
http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm
I use 1 tsp of SEBP to one ounce of ground or chopped chicken. Mix
together and shape enough meatballs for several days doses, and freeze
them. They thaw quickly. For small dogs, divide in 1/2 ounce
meatballs, for large to giant dogs, 1 ounce meatballs. Feed 1 with
each meal. Or, fast for a day, (not for pups, fast for just a meal or
two) offer plenty of water. Feed SEBP meatballs 3-4 times throughout
the day. Feed smaller, more frequent meals for several days after,
gradually increasing the meals and decreasing the SEBP meatballs. You
will often see an increase in mucousy poops with SEBP, this is part of
the way it soothes the digestive system, and the dog's body will do
the same sometimes even without SEBP.

• You can feed pretty much any animal or animal part that your dog
will eat and that won't break the bank. : ) Common grocery store
variety suffices for some; chicken, turkey, pork, beef, lamb, fish,
rabbit. Others can obtain at a reasonable price and feed; goat,
venison, emu, ostrich, bison, beefalo, elk, mutton, mice, rats, guinea
hen, quail, bear (bear? ;) ), the list goes on and on.

• Lis' List; ways to creatively source cheaper variety in protein,
parts and organs. FreeCycle and craigslist are great ways to find a
free or cheap freezer to hold all the scores you'll be making!
> Where do you look for meat suppliers?

Permission to repost from Lis

1) Look up meat and poultry packers, processors, and distributors in
the yellow pages. You may be able to get great prices from them if
you order in bulk, and/or they may have a discount outlet that is
open to the public.
2) I get many of my best deals in Asian/Oriental markets. I've also
heard that Hispanic and Caribbean markets have great variety and
prices too.
3) You may be able to join a barter group.
4) Google breeders (i.e. rabbit, goat, lamb, etc.) who are in your
geographic area. They may have culls they want to get rid of, or
lower prices overall.
5) Look up bulk suppliers and frozen bulk foods in your yellow pages.
6) If you have a Chinatown nearby, definitely make a visit.
7) Let your friends, relatives, and neighbors know you want any
freezer burn or old meat when they clean out their freezers, and tell
them to pass the word along.
8)If you belong to a church or social group, tell those members to
mention it to their friends and relatives as well.
9) See if there are any co-ops or meat buying groups near you. Check
on Yahoo, or Google to see.
10) Try craigslist - it's amazing what you can get for free or cheap.
11) And I get meat and fish all the time (for free) through
FreeCycle. Join multiple lists if there are a few close by.
12) Some Wal-marts and some Costcos and some Sam’s Clubs have good
deals, but you may want to make sure it's not seasoned meat.
13) Definitely watch the flyers, and you can usually see the rest
of the flyers online (the ones that don't get delivered to your house,
but are only a short drive away).
14) *** Hands down, the bulk of my best deals have been marked down
meat at regular grocery stores. They reduce it the day before it is
going to expire, and I go as early as I can to get it before it is
gone.
15) Tell friends and relatives who hunt and fish that you want first
dibs on any body parts they don't. You can probably get at least the
organs and maybe the head. Also ask them to put you in touch with
their other friends who hunt and fish.
16) A great tip I learned here a while back â€" some restaurants
throw out things they don't use, like the organs that come inside
whole poultry, or raw meat that falls on the floor. See if they'll
save them for you. Find somebody who knows somebody who works there.
17) Farmer's markets are great, but pick and choose carefully for the
best bargains. And sometimes at the end of the day some vendors will
reduce their prices, ‘cause they don't want to take it back with them.
18) Some people contact taxidermists, who have no use for the meat.
19) Find people on this list from your vicinity, and ask them where
they get their meat deals. Join other raw feeding lists (there are
many), and ask if there are other raw feeders in your area.
20) Tell your butcher you want the meat that they would normally
throw out, that is almost out of date, that people ordered and didn't
pick up, stuff that was dropped on the floor, their freezer
cleanouts, and parts that don't sell (like trachea, lungs, spleen,
etc.). Some butchers will save their trim for you (once they get to
know you). Build a relationship with them first.
21) Yes, roadkill works too (where it is legal). In some places you
can get your name on the list and get called when they have large
roadkill. (like deer)
22) You can raise your own meat/poultry if you have the room.
23) Post a message in Carnivore Feed-Supplier or CFS-Canada if you are
in North America:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CFS-Canada/
24) Speak to local farmers.
25) Also, look for heart, tongue, and gizzards, which count as meat (as
opposed to organ) in the world of raw feeding, but are often cheaper
than other muscle meats.
26) Find somebody who knows somebody who works at the grocery store.
They can introduce you to the meat guy, who may become more willing
to save stuff for you or reduce items about to expire, once they know
you.
27) Check the internet. Some suppliers have affordable prices, even
after shipping costs are calculated.

Lis

If you must supplement, you can add Salmon or Fish Body oil, either in
caps or liquid. Make sure it doesn't have any plant based oils, like
soy, in there. You probably don't need much. Follow the
recommendations that come with the product you buy.
http://timberwolforganics.com/pet-omega-oils

It really isn't that hard to raw feed your dog. There's a learning
curve, definitely. But, that's what this list is here for.
Read as many daily posts as you can, read the files on the website,
and follow those links! Search in the archives for past posts with
keywords; new to raw, newbie, help, how do I start or other words that
reflect your specific search.
TC, ask questions and let us know how you and your dog progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I have a 3 year old, 77 pound, 3 foot tall Greyhound that has been
> diagnosed, misdiagnosed etc. He was diagnosed over 2 years ago with
> hypothyroidism and then about 6 months ago with IBD. Well as it turns
> out our regular vet thought the specialist was incorrect and he his
> IBD was caused by the thyroid and maybe it was a misdiagnosed. Well as
> we weaned off the high doses of Soloxine he actually improved.
<snip>
> Do we need to supplement? When do you add beef (or something else)?
> What about pork?
>
> Thanks for any help you can provide.
> Cathy
> AKA Bengals Mom/Slave
>

Messages in this topic (23)
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5a. Re: blanket statement
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:02 pm ((PDT))

Maybe I'm just anti-scientific, but all I really needed to do was ask
myself, "What would the wolf eat?", and the scales fell from my eyes.
; )

I felt as if I was part of the 'flat forehead' school of learning.
(Shoulda had a V-8! lol )

If the wolf would eat it, its plenty good 'nough for my dogs.

So, for those of you who need numbers, charts, graphs, research,
chemical interaction explanations, etc. and so forth; I say, go for it!

But, reading all that stuff makes me want a chocolate bar. a whole
one. semi sweet. just for me.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> <<...That answer is not good enough for folks like me who need to
know WHY.
> And it's not really even an answer to the question, it's exactly what
> I said... simply a blanket statement that raw is superior. ..>>
>
> Amen to that, Deb in CO. I too was feeding raw and kibble
alternating feedings. I also need the "WHY" to understand and be
convinced. So thank you for the information. I've been feeding all raw
for 2 weeks now but was feeding kibble and raw for 2 months.
> Sometimes, people who have been feeding raw a long time and know
without a doubt that it's the best thing to feed your pet, forget that
we newbies don't know any such thing because of the brain washing
we've had from the dog food industry and vets (people who are supposed
to know what's best for our pets). So we DO need the data, facts,
research and explanations.
> Ivette

Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: blanket statement
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:16 pm ((PDT))

Giselle,

Hahahahaha........I've enjoyed and learned so much from all your
posts but I have to admit this is one of the best!

Thank You!

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@...>
wrote:
>
> Maybe I'm just anti-scientific, but all I really needed to do was
ask
> myself, "What would the wolf eat?", and the scales fell from my
eyes.
> ; )
> I felt as if I was part of the 'flat forehead' school of learning.
> (Shoulda had a V-8! lol )

> TC
> Giselle
> with Bea in New Jersey

Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: Photos of raw eating
Posted by: "Jamie Dolan" jamiedolan@gmail.com jamiedolan
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:04 pm ((PDT))

> enjoying themselves. My question for you is: are the feathers good for the
> digestion? It seems to me that they would get caught somewhere. By the way

HI,

I wondered a lot about how they would handle the feathers as well.
Akiva and Vasco, my older dogs, both seemed to spit out all the
feahters they could. They seemed to chew the meat off the feathers as
much as they could, then just spit out the feathers. My younger dog,
bae, did try to eat some of the feathers, but I discouraged the eating
of the feathers as much as possiable. I think there was so much meat
that they just wanted to go after the meat and didn't want to fill up
on feathers! LOL

None of them appeared to have any digestive problems what so ever from the food.

> Jamie, I looked at your photos. Your dogs looked like they were really
> you have some cute dogs. Thank-you for the warning about the photos. That
> was a good idea. Even though they didn't bother me, they might bother some
> one else. Penelope

Thanks! :-) They are sweet dogs.

Jamie

Messages in this topic (2)
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7a. Re: My dogs eating a "Real" Chicken
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:18 pm ((PDT))

Great job Jamie and your fur kids too!
That's the way we should all be striving for......

I didn't find those pictures at all "grapic"
just what nature intended, lol.

Your fur kids are the cutest too!

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jamie Dolan" <jamiedolan@...> wrote:

> Here is the web page the photos are on:
>
> http://www.pixagogo.com/1766374120
>
> -Jamie Dolan

Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. Why not to feed raw with kibble
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:51 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Ivette!
I think it has to do with dogs generally drinking less
water when on raw. Raw has a pretty high water content, and kibble is
dry as dust, so dogs drink more water when on kibble to over
compensate just to be able to digest it.
If you use a watering can ( for a small dog ) or the backyard hose on
the urine spot to dilute the urine right after your dog pees, it will
minimize the damage to the grass.
Tc
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

>
> Does anyone have an answer to why the urine spots on the lawn
used to be green and healthy when he was on k***le but now that he's
on raw it's killing the grass?
> Is it the urea in his urine from the raw? Was he urinating lots
of stuff he wasn't using anyway while eating kibble that was feeding
the lawn?
> Ivette
>
>
>
> Ivette Casiano
> "Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

Messages in this topic (22)
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8b. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:14 pm ((PDT))

I have never seen anyone on this list state that facts don't matter. The
entire list and feeding recommendations are based on fact! The rawfeeding
myths are referred to constantly. You cannot be on this list very long and
not be confronted by facts!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "chaparraltrail" <chaparraltrail@yahoo.com>

Those of you with all the years of practical experienc, and all the
wonderful practical advice, need to understand that the scinece
behind the advice is critical for some of us, and also for
discussing this intelligently with others. It is a major turn-off
(and indeed cult-like) to be told that the facts don't matter.

Messages in this topic (22)
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9a. Re: shiba new to raw with watery diarrhea and vomiting
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:55 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Brandi Bryant" <bbryant573@...>
wrote:
>
> I gave them all a CapStar yesterday (I know - all natural but I
> couldn't wait - I was tired of all the scratching) and it seems
> to have worked.

Cool. I give my dogs a flea treatment (Frontline) only when I see
fleas. I did it one time last year and none so far this year. I do
it for one reason ... it works!!

> I'm going to continue
> with chicken for the most part - might venture into turkey.

I can't remember how long your dogs have been on raw but if it's
been a few weeks on chicken and they are doing ok, its time to move
on to turkey for a week and if all is ok, try pork.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (10)
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10a. Need support on raw feeding
Posted by: "vickies_28" vickies_28@yahoo.com vickies_28
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:56 pm ((PDT))

Hi everyone,
Almost a year ago I lost a puppy (13 months) to cancer, very powerfull,
strong and quick form. He died within 1 month of us noticing the
problem. Horrible experience. About 3 month before that happened I
switched him to raw food which he loved. My husband and all family
opposed that, and now that we got another dog, they say I will kill
this one with the raw diet as I did kill the first one.
Sometimes I really doubt myself, maybe I was the one to cause the death
of my beloved puppy by feeding him raw. I read a lot online about meats
being full of hormones, genetically altered, antibiotics, etc Maybe the
meat he ate had cancer in it? Is it even possible?
Please help, I can use some reassurance.
Vickie

Messages in this topic (3)
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10b. Re: Need support on raw feeding
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:13 pm ((PDT))

> Almost a year ago I lost a puppy (13 months) to cancer, very powerfull,
> strong and quick form.

I'm so sorry.

> Sometimes I really doubt myself, maybe I was the one to cause the death
> of my beloved puppy by feeding him raw. I read a lot online about meats
> being full of hormones, genetically altered, antibiotics, etc Maybe the
> meat he ate had cancer in it? Is it even possible?

Any meat you feed is going to be FAR superior to the meat that goes into
commercial dog foods. You did NOT give this pup cancer by feeding him raw.
You may have even bought him more time by switching, since cancers love
carbs and raw is so low in carbohydrates.

His death was NOT your fault. While it wasn't enough, the life he had was
filled with love and care - thanks to you.

Casey

Messages in this topic (3)
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10c. Re: Need support on raw feeding
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:21 pm ((PDT))

Hi Vickie,

I am so sorry this happened to your puppy and your family...but I don't
understand how feeding an appropriate diet is going to cause cancer? Dogs
are carnivores. This the diet they are designed to eat.

This is not something you caused. Anything you feed raw is far superior to
the protein sources in kibble.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "vickies_28" <vickies_28@yahoo.com>
Almost a year ago I lost a puppy (13 months) to cancer, very powerfull,
strong and quick form. He died within 1 month of us noticing the
problem. Horrible experience. About 3 month before that happened I
switched him to raw food which he loved. My husband and all family
opposed that, and now that we got another dog, they say I will kill
this one with the raw diet as I did kill the first one.
Sometimes I really doubt myself, maybe I was the one to cause the death
of my beloved puppy by feeding him raw. I read a lot online about meats
being full of hormones, genetically altered, antibiotics, etc Maybe the
meat he ate had cancer in it? Is it even possible?
Please help, I can use some reassurance.

Messages in this topic (3)
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11a. Re: Frothy vomit
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:57 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Nathalie Poulin
<poulin_nathalie@...> wrote:
>
> I gave Poe (50lbs german shepherd/husky X) some pork
> yesturday and I'm pretty sure it was enhanced (I
> checked the package but it didn't say anything on it).

If it were enhanced it would say so on the package. Enhancement is
not really the gremlin its sometimes touted to be anyway. It's
often a convenient thing to blame digestive problems on when you
can't find anything else.

> Last night she spent the night vomiting up what looks
> like frothy saliva.

> She's not drinking any water, though she has access to
> it and she hasn't even contemplated eating her
> dinner...

These are symptoms that would concern me. It could be any number of
things causing this and I doubt it's the pork assuming she has eaten
pork before with no problem.

> Should I take her to the vet?

If she is still listless and not drinking water in the morning, yes.

> I'm hoping the frothy saliva is
> just her body trying to get rid of the enhanced stuff
> and that by tomorrow she'll be feeling better.

I hope she is completely well in the morning but I seriously don't
think its her body trying to get rid of the enhancement. The
enhancement(if there is some which I doubt) is nothing more than a
saline solution. 80% of her body weight is saline solution.

Good luck to you both. Let us know how it goes.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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11b. Re: Frothy vomit
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:24 pm ((PDT))

"carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:

> If it were enhanced it would say so on the package. Enhancement is
> not really the gremlin its sometimes touted to be anyway. It's
> often a convenient thing to blame digestive problems on when you
> can't find anything else.

Bill, it's just lovely for you that you can dismiss "enhanced" meat
so lightly, but it really is a problem for my dog. Feed enhanced
meat, deal with extremely loose, difficult-to-control stools.
Reliably.

I think I've been raw feeding long enough to know the difference
between a fluke, caused by lord-knows-what, and an actual correlation.

As for the package, at some stores it ISN'T marked, and other times
it's just incredibly difficult to find. I've gotten pretty brand-
specific to avoid problems with enhancement. I personally also hate
the taste of enhanced meats, so they're a total no-go in my house.

-- sandy & griffin

Messages in this topic (3)
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12a. Re: apple cider vinegar & digestive enzymes
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:59 pm ((PDT))

Hi,Ivette!
I don't see any need to add ACV. A dog's ph on a raw diet,
imo, should be just fine, whatever it is.
I would start reducing the amount of digestive enzymes you feed now,
gradually. You may see a need to use them for a bit when introing some
new proteins, but probably not.
Simple is better - concentrate on introducing protein, body part and
organ variety, slowly and gradually, and he'll do just fine.
The more you complicate raw feeding by adding supps and additives the
less natural it is.
If you want to feed a useful supp, use Salmon or Fish Body oil. Bulk
or cap, but no plant based oils added.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Does anyone have any info on adding apple cider vinegar to a dog's
raw diet?
> I know that keeps their ph down, but don't know how much nor how
often it should be added.
> Nugget is a 90lb Lab doing well on raw for 3 weeks now. He's eaten
chicken, beef hearts, pork and lamb. Oh, and a little liver, not too
often because that's what gave him the runs last time I tried. Anyway,
does the vinegar help their digestion? I give him digestive enzymes
already. Another question. Is there a time when I can stop giving him
digestive enzymes?
> Ivette
>
>
> Ivette Casiano
> "Live for today, plan for tomorrow"
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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12b. Re: apple cider vinegar & digestive enzymes
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:02 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Ivette Casiano
<ivettecasiano@...> wrote:
>
> Anyway, does the vinegar help their digestion? I give him
> digestive enzymes already.

IMO on mistake many people make, particularly newbies, is to try to
do too much for your little doggies. You should just give them
their food, back away, leave them alone and let them eat. They are
perfectly capable of digesting raw meat, bones, and organs.
Sometimes it takes a few weeks to adjust (NOT if you follow my
recommendations) but they will adjust if you just leave them alone
and let their bodies learn how to handle this new food.

>Another question. Is there a time when I can stop giving
> him digestive enzymes?

Today. His body is perfectly capable of producing the necessary
enzymes to digest RMBs and organs if you just stand back and let it
happen. The more you "help" them, the slower the learning process
is.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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13.1. Re: newbie
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:17 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Delinda!
You could feed them in their crates with the doors closed,
that would work.
Or, separate them in one room, your choice, as far away from each
other as possible, and put an old beach towel or folded blanket or
shower curtain down for each one. Put their food on them, and stand
back! Rule is; everything has to stay on the towel. No dragging food
away, no visiting the other dog's eating place. Just eating, until
they are done.
When they're done, if they haven't eaten it all, just trade each dog
what's left for a yummy treat (or several) or chewie. If its just
bones, toss it in the trash. If its meat 'n good stuff leftovers, put
it in the fridge 'til next meal.
I would recommend that you do this one dog at a time, starting with
the first one to stop eating. That one goes outside to eliminate, so
the other can finish in peace.
Pick up the towel, fold it up and reuse for meal time until icky, then
wash. : )
If I fed outside, which I don't, I'd have the same rules; the dogs eat
in one spot, I clean up, toss or refrigerate anything left after the
initial feed. I'd probably also want them to eat on a deck or platform
or patio brick pad, so's it could be hosed down after meals.
As for treats, anything not being actively worked on, gets put in the
trash or in the fridge.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I have just started raw feeding my male English Mastiff and my female
> Boxer. While the weather has been nice, I have been able to feed
> them outside, but now the bees are very active and they are swarming
> the meat. I'd like some input from all of you, if you don't mind, on
> how you feed them in the house. <snip>
> Thank you so much for any advice you may be able to give me.
>
> Delinda
>

Messages in this topic (46)
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14.1. Questions
Posted by: "LittleGoldWoman" stacy1967@gmail.com bogcmamma67
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:46 pm ((PDT))

Hi im new. I have a 4.5 m old great dane puppy.
Im just now hearing of raw and i have questions.
I was wondering if someone can answer them or maybe point me in the
directions of the answers.

Where the heck do you get raw food?
Isnt it more expensive to be buying raw meat?
How often do you need to feed them?
I read something about 2% of body weight but im not real sure what that
means.

He weighs 69lbs right now and is gaining 3-6 lbs a week.
So I would need to feed him almost 14 lbs of raw meat a day????

Im so confused.

He has sores on his back legs that he picks at and a huge raw spot on his
tail that wont go away, When he picks at it sometimes he ends up slinging
blood all over the house. Someone at the dog park told me it was alergies or
could be hook worms?
I dont know.

im also very anti doctor. We are an all natural family. My kids arent
immunized an we dont do antibiotics. So i want my dog to be all natural too.
Are there holistic vets around?

I havent owned a dog in 10 years so im having to relearn everything. Any
help out there?

Stacy
and Heston

--

www.myspace.com/littlegoldwoman <-----MY MYSPACE
www.flickr.com/photos/littlegoldwoman <----FLICKR GALLERY
www.sxc.hu/gallery/lilgoldwmn <---- STOCK GALLERY

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (59)
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14.2. Re: Questions
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:08 pm ((PDT))

Hi Stacy,

There are many places to buy raw food...the most convenient and easiest at
this point is your local grocery store. Get a couple of chickens, divide
them into meal sized portions for your pup and feed him. At 4 months old,
he probably should be eating three meals a day and depending on his expected
adult weight that would mean approximately 3-5 lbs per day?

Don't know about the sores...sounds like pretty severe problems for such a
young puppy. Could be many reasons including fleas, mange, adverse effects
of vaccinations, flea treatments, etc.....but that's not a topic for this
list.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "LittleGoldWoman" <stacy1967@gmail.com>
>
> Where the heck do you get raw food?
> Isnt it more expensive to be buying raw meat?
> How often do you need to feed them?
> I read something about 2% of body weight but im not real sure what that
> means.
>
> He weighs 69lbs right now and is gaining 3-6 lbs a week.
> So I would need to feed him almost 14 lbs of raw meat a day????
>
> Im so confused.
>
> He has sores on his back legs that he picks at and a huge raw spot on his
> tail that wont go away, When he picks at it sometimes he ends up slinging
> blood all over the house. Someone at the dog park told me it was alergies
or
> could be hook worms?
> I dont know.

Messages in this topic (59)
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