[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11965

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. So much for the "prey model"
From: macattack0201
1b. Re: So much for the "prey model"
From: Tina Berry
1c. Re: So much for the "prey model"
From: Sandee Lee

2a. Score!
From: Joyner, Katie

3a. Re: Trouble with Bone Variety
From: Giselle
3b. Re: Trouble with Bone Variety
From: Sandee Lee
3c. Re: Trouble with Bone Variety -THANK YOU
From: lolapig1

4a. Re: Back to raw
From: Giselle

5.1. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
From: carnesbill

6a. chicken eggs
From: MustBLuvSpaniels@aol.com
6b. Re: chicken eggs
From: Giselle

7a. First raw-Salmon
From: Penelope Quillen
7b. Re: First raw-Salmon
From: zest_741

8. Shannon
From: Penelope Quillen

9a. Re: Panting and lethargy
From: Ivette Casiano

10a. Re: apple cider vinegar & digestive enzymes
From: Ivette Casiano
10b. Re: apple cider vinegar & digestive enzymes
From: Ivette Casiano
10c. Re: apple cider vinegar & digestive enzymes
From: Ivette Casiano

11a. organ meats
From: Linda Gower
11b. Re: organ meats
From: Giselle

12a. Re: Why not raw with kibble & fat deposits
From: Ivette Casiano
12b. Re: Why not raw with kibble & fat deposits
From: costrowski75

13a. Re: Thanks Bill
From: ittybittybullies

14a. Re: shiba new to raw with watery diarrhea and vomiting
From: Shirley

15. Lily Update
From: Carrie Kelly

Messages
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1a. So much for the "prey model"
Posted by: "macattack0201" bmcneil@fdainfo.com macattack0201
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:21 pm ((PDT))

Hi all.....I started my 6yo Boston on raw last week. Well, she loves
the ground turkey. But I had given her RMB (chicken wings) and she
won't eat them. I even cut the meat off the bone thinking that she
loves the ground turkey, surely she'll love the chicken...maybe it's
just the bone......nope.
Any suggestions? I really don't want to give her nothing but ground
turkey.
Thanks!
Bridget

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: So much for the "prey model"
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:28 pm ((PDT))

"Well, she loves the ground turkey."

Sometimes it takes a while on one thing before they catch on - if she likes
turkey, I'd try a turkey neck or leg. The chicken wing probably wasn't
enough meat for her. Or could be she doesn't like the skin yet. Patience.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: So much for the "prey model"
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:03 pm ((PDT))

Bridget,

Try something larger with more meat. She may just be used to eating food
she doesn't have to put any effort into. If need be, you can cut "ribbons"
into the meat to give her some easy starting places and smash the bone a
bit.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "macattack0201" <bmcneil@fdainfo.com>

Hi all.....I started my 6yo Boston on raw last week. Well, she loves
the ground turkey. But I had given her RMB (chicken wings) and she
won't eat them. I even cut the meat off the bone thinking that she
loves the ground turkey, surely she'll love the chicken...maybe it's
just the bone......nope.

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Score!
Posted by: "Joyner, Katie" krjoyner@firstam.com pelle567
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:29 pm ((PDT))

Sweet! Me and my dogs are jealous!

Katie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Trouble with Bone Variety
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:54 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Sarah!
ANY raw diet is a million times better than cr*p-in-a-bag!!!!

EDIBLE bone in the diet needs to be only about 10% of the total. So,
you can safely feed boneless meals frequently. Bones that come from
the weight bearing parts of large herbivores (think cows, deer)
shouldn't be fed, or, if fed, taken up when the dog has eaten off the
meat to avoid tooth breakage and wearing.

The other thing you need to know is a little adjustment of mindset;
don't think about finding your dogs *bones*, think about finding your
dogs a variety of protein sources and body parts that contain 80% meat
(muscle, fat, skin, connective tissue) 10% organ (5% of that being
liver) and 10% edible bone.

A species appropriate whole raw prey model diet contains all these
ingredients.

It can be as simple as a visit to the supermarket; whole chicken,
whole turkey, pork (whole neck bones, shoulder or fresh hams), beef or
veal (heart or roasts), lamb breast, fish, even rabbit. Most any part
of any animal that your dog can and will eat can be fed.

If you check out the sources on Lis' List (which I will post) you can
source a lot more exotic and hard to find meats with/out bone and
organs; goat, venison, emu, ostrich, bison, beefalo, elk, mutton,
mice, rats, guinea hen, quail, bear. (bear? ;) )

My organ shopping list; liver, heart (fed as meat), cheek meat, head
meat, salivary glands, feet, lips, oxtail, spleen, tongue (usually fed
as meat), weasand meat (esophagus), tripe, stomach, sweetbread (thymus
& pancreas), ears, kidneys, brain, tripe, poultry giblets - heart
(meat), liver, gizzard (meat) and snouts. Heads, with all the ‘stuff’,
including eyes.
"offal" - viscera and trimmings of a butchered animal often considered
inedible by humans.

Lis' List; ways to creatively source cheaper variety in protein, parts
and organs. FreeCycle and craigslist are great ways to find a free or
cheap freezer to hold all the scores you'll be making!
> Where do you look for meat suppliers?

Permission to repost from Lis

A) Look up meat and poultry packers, processors, and distributors in
the yellow pages. You may be able to get great prices from them if
you order in bulk, and/or they may have a discount outlet that is
open to the public.
B) I get many of my best deals in Asian/Oriental markets. I've also
heard that Hispanic and Caribbean markets have great variety and
prices too.
C) You may be able to join a barter group.
D) Google breeders (i.e. rabbit, goat, lamb, etc.) who are in your
geographic area. They may have culls they want to get rid of, or
lower prices overall.
E) Look up bulk suppliers and frozen bulk foods in your yellow pages.
F) If you have a Chinatown nearby, definitely make a visit.
G) Let your friends, relatives, and neighbors know you want any
freezer burn or old meat when they clean out their freezers, and tell
them to pass the word along.
H)If you belong to a church or social group, tell those members to
mention it to their friends and relatives as well.
I) See if there are any co-ops or meat buying groups near you. Check
on Yahoo, or Google to see.
J) Try craigslist - it's amazing what you can get for free or cheap.
K) And I get meat and fish all the time (for free) through
FreeCycle. Join multiple lists if there are a few close by.
L) Some Wal-marts and some Costcos and some Sam’s Clubs have good
deals, but you may want to make sure it's not seasoned meat.
M) Definitely watch the flyers, and you can usually see the rest
of the flyers online (the ones that don't get delivered to your house,
but are only a short drive away).
N) *** Hands down, the bulk of my best deals have been marked down
meat at regular grocery stores. They reduce it the day before it is
going to expire, and I go as early as I can to get it before it is
gone.
O) Tell friends and relatives who hunt and fish that you want first
dibs on any body parts they don't. You can probably get at least the
organs and maybe the head. Also ask them to put you in touch with
their other friends who hunt and fish.
P) A great tip I learned here a while back â€" some restaurants
throw out things they don't use, like the organs that come inside
whole poultry, or raw meat that falls on the floor. See if they'll
save them for you. Find somebody who knows somebody who works there.
Q) Farmer's markets are great, but pick and choose carefully for the
best bargains. And sometimes at the end of the day some vendors will
reduce their prices, ‘cause they don't want to take it back with them.
R) Some people contact taxidermists, who have no use for the meat.
S) Find people on this list from your vicinity, and ask them where
they get their meat deals. Join other raw feeding lists (there are
many), and ask if there are other raw feeders in your area.
T) Tell your butcher you want the meat that they would normally
throw out, that is almost out of date, that people ordered and didn't
pick up, stuff that was dropped on the floor, their freezer
cleanouts, and parts that don't sell (like trachea, lungs, spleen,
etc.). Some butchers will save their trim for you (once they get to
know you). Build a relationship with them first.
U) Yes, roadkill works too (where it is legal). In some places you
can get your name on the list and get called when they have large
roadkill. (like deer)
V) You can raise your own meat/poultry if you have the room.
W) Post a message in Carnivore Feed-Supplier or CFS-Canada if you are
in North America:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CFS-Canada/
X) Speak to local farmers.
Y) Also, look for heart, tongue, and gizzards, which count as meat (as
opposed to organ) in the world of raw feeding, but are often cheaper
than other muscle meats.
Z) Find somebody who knows somebody who works at the grocery store.
They can introduce you to the meat guy, who may become more willing
to save stuff for you or reduce items about to expire, once they know
you.
AA) Check the internet. Some suppliers have affordable prices, even
after shipping costs are calculated. Google the name of the beast you
want to feed and use keyword; dog or canine, raw feeding, and the body
part you want to find - you should get some hits and can figure out $$
and shipping, etc.

Have you been checking the messages on this list daily? The subject
comes up frequently ; )
Tell us about your scores!
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> My husband and I have scavenged the metro (we live in Kansas City),
> have checked with independent grocers, butchers, restaurant suppliers,
> and ethnic stores... and have little to no luck finding a variety of
> bones.
<snip>
> We started raw feeding in February and the dogs took immediately too
> it, but I am just not getting the variety in that I know they need. I
> would HATE to return to kibble because of the lack of food available
> in my area, especially since the Boston isn't able to digest most
kibble.
>
> Any suggestions or thoughts would be most helpful!
> Thanks!
>
> *Sarah in KC
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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3b. Re: Trouble with Bone Variety
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:00 pm ((PDT))

Sarah,

You don't need much in the way of bones...only around 10% in the overall
diet. Concentrate on getting some nice meaty meals of beef, pork, lamb,
etc. They actually should be able to eat most if not all pork bones
tho....try some nice shoulder roasts or slabs of ribs.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "lolapig1" <lolapig@gmail.com>

Our dogs (1 Boston 20lbs/2yrs and 1 Lab mix 40lbs/2.5yrs) are just
sick to death of chicken bones. The Boston will occasionally eat some
drummies and the Lab Mix will occasionally take a whack at some turkey
wings... but other than that we are just at a loss.

Messages in this topic (6)
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3c. Re: Trouble with Bone Variety -THANK YOU
Posted by: "lolapig1" lolapig@gmail.com lolapig1
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:59 pm ((PDT))

Thank you everyone for all of your suggestions!
I greatly appreciate it.

Messages in this topic (6)
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________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Back to raw
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:05 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Beckie!
A suggestion; feed slightly smaller meals more often. 2-3 a
day will help with the horking, I think. and help to put weight on, for a
dog that won't fill herself up on one meal a day.
You can try to feed some fattier meats, like pork, tongue, lamb breast or
beef ribs. If she tolerates the extra fat, it can help to put weight on.
Adding meat without bones to meals or boneless meals, like beef or veal
heart, chicken or turkey heart or gizzards can help get her weight up.
Add organ variety. Don't feed whole meals of organs, just add a bit to
meals.
I'm going to include my 'newbie' spiel, just so you can review it and make
notes of meats to add for variety and ways to source them.
TC and let me know how you and she progress!
Giselle

My recommendations:

1. You want to start with 2-3% of your dog's ESTIMATED IDEAL ADULT
weight. Tweak with more meat if your dog gets a bit skinny, a bit less if
your dog gets 'fluffy' over the space of a few weeks. You might start out by
weighing your dog, and weighing her meals; but most peeps don't continue
once they get more comfortable and casual about feeding raw.

1. Ditch the kibble – there's been plenty of discussion on this list
about why kibble and raw don't mix; just let it suffice that your dog can
reap the benefits of raw faster and more completely if you donate the kibble
to your local shelter asap. A species appropriate raw whole prey model diet
doesn't include kibble.

1. Feed at least 2 meals a day to start with. ( three meals for a pup
under 6 months old ) Feeding once a day (or even less often) can be a great
feeding plan for a dog, but not at first; too much new food at a meal can
cause digestive upset. Feed as large a portion as you can for the size of
the meal. No little pieces or cut up, 'bite sized' chucks. Dogs need to tear
into their food and shear hunks off to swallow and crunch bone for physical,
mental and dental health. They don't chew or eat the way we do, their
digestion begins in their stomachs, not in their mouths. So swallowing big
hunks of meat and bone is fine. If it fits, its OK. If it isn't happy
in the stomach, the dog will hork it up, and re eat it, so it will go down
and stay down the 2nd or 3rd time. All good, that's the way dogs are.

1. Feed a little less at each meal at first than you think you should.
Too much new food over the course of a day or two can cause digestive upset,
too.

1. Stay with one new protein for at least a week, maybe two. You want
the dog to be showing you he is well adjusted to the new protein before
adding in new stuff. Take it slow; add only one new protein every week or
two.

1. You can switch to a new protein by just serving it at the next
meal, and all the meals after that for a week or so, or you can add a bite
or two of the new protein in with the 'old' protein, gradually adding more
new and less 'old' over several days, until you are feeding all new and no
'old'. Whatever works for your own dog.

1. Boneless meals tend to produce loose, even runny poops. A judicious
amount of bone in a newbie dog's meal will tend to firm things up. There
will be less poop overall; raw is much more digestible and less goes to
waste. Poops will be less frequent also, for the same reason. Bone adds
bulk, so sloppy poops can be firmed up by some (don't go overboard!) bone at
each meal at first.

1. Chicken is recommended as the first protein to be introduced for
several reasons: its cheap, easy to obtain, easy to cut into different dog
meal sized portions, you can trim visible fat and skin if you need to tweak,
most dogs will eat it and its pretty bland. Read the labels on the chicken
before you buy; don't get any that say its enhanced with
flavoring/seasonings or salt injected. Some dogs get itchy or vomit or get
true diarrhea from enhancements. Whole chickens are the best to start with,
ime. Cut into portion sizes with kitchen shears, as needed.

1. Some newbie dogs vomit or poop bone bits. There is an adjustment
period, so you want some bone in most meals at first, but too much bone may
not be digested and the dog will just hork it up or poop it out. NPs, its
just the dog's way of saying "Too much right now, thanks."

1. Some dogs will get the Bile Vomits or Bone Bile Vomits (BV or BBV)
when new to raw simply because their schedules or routines of eating have
been changed. When a dog adjusts to raw, his gastric 'juices' become much
more acid, to better digest the raw meat and bone. If he's expecting a meal
at a certain time, the 'juices start flowing' in anticipation of getting a
meal. When the meal doesn't happen, the dog often will hork up the
yellowish, foamyish bile, with or without bones. Sometimes they hork up BBV
because raw digests faster than kibble, the tummy is empty, so it must be
time to eat. NP for the dog, he''s gotten rid of the irritation. He may
react as if he feels bad, just because you are upset that he did it on your
new comforter, or on the white carpet.

1. A lot of dogs don't drink as much water or as frequently when
switched to all raw, all the time. Raw has a pretty high water content and
most dogs are forced by dry as dust kibble to over drink water to compensate
in order for their bodies to process it. If only fed raw, you don't need to
coax your dog to drink more water or even broth, just offer plenty of fresh
water, he'll drink when he needs it.

1. True diarrhea is not just loose, runny or sloppy poops. It is
frequent, liquid or watery explosions of poo that a dog cannot 'hold back'.
True diarrhea, imo, is caused by disease, parasites or inappropriate food or
non food items. The occasional loose poops, even over a few days, from
feeding a few too many boneless meals or introing a new protein or feeding
too much organ at one whack, is not diarrhea.

1. The general rule of thumb for feeding raw is: 80% meat (muscle,
fat, skin, connective tissue) 10% EDIBLE bone (not all bone that is served
must be consumed) and 10% organs (5% of this is liver, the rest is as much
variety as you can find and afford) This is not an immutable 'daily
requirement'. Balance Over Time, over weeks and months is one of the raw
feeding mottos. ; ) If you feed true whole prey, that is; entire animals at
a time, then the meat to bone to organ ratios are 'perfect' for that
creature. Whatever parts your dog can eat of is right for him. In the wild,
wolves will eat off a large animal carcass for days, and each wolf gets
different parts. If times are hard, they will consume the entire critter,
including skin, fur, less 'choice' parts and will even crack the hard long
bones to get to the marrow. If pickin's are plentiful, they will eat the
easiest and choice parts, and then move on. Because of variances in size,
age, personality, life experiences and dental ability, a particular dog will
be able to consume, or not: all or part or some or a little bone from any
particular animal. If you feed 'Frankenprey', that is; a variety of protein,
body parts and organs from different animals, to simulate the whole prey
experience for your dogs, you are challenged to find enough variety in all
these aspects for optimal health.

1. Organs - don't try to add a lot of organs or organ variety at
first. An easy way to satisfy the human need to "Do it all, right now!", is
to toss the gizzards and heart you get with your whole chickens in with a
bonier meal, a little piece at a meal. Heart and gizzards are organs, but
should be fed as meatymeat. The liver can be cut up into teensy bits, and
fed a tiny bit at a time with a meal. This will allow you to feed organs,
but shouldn't cause runny stools. If it does, cut it out and freeze those
parts for later down the line.

My list of organs, so I don't forget to look for variety; liver, heart (fed
as meat), cheek meat, head meat, salivary glands, feet, lips, oxtail,
spleen, tongue (usually fed as meat), weasand meat (esophagus), tripe,
stomach, sweetbread (thymus & pancreas), ears, kidneys, brain, tripe,
poultry giblets - heart, liver, gizzard and snouts. Heads, with all the
'stuff', including eyes.

"offal" - viscera and trimmings of a butchered animal often considered
inedible by

humans.

1. SEBP - Slippery Elm Bark Powder. This is a good innocuous herb that
soothes the stomach and digestive system. If you feel you need to intervene
when your dog has loose poops or constipation, this is the way to go. SEBP
is "used to treat diarrhea, constipation, enteritis, colitis & irritations
of the stomach. Used to soothe, protect & lubricate mucous membranes. Also,
used to relieve the discomforts of kennel cough & other types of
bronchitis." http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm

I use 1 tsp of SEBP to one ounce of ground or chopped chicken. Mix together
and shape enough meatballs for several days doses, and freeze them. They
thaw quickly. For small dogs, divide in 1/2 ounce meatballs, for large to
giant dogs, 1 ounce meatballs. Feed 1 with each meal. Or, fast for a day,
(not for pups, fast for just a meal or two) offer plenty of water. Feed SEBP
meatballs 3-4 times throughout the day. Feed smaller, more frequent meals
for several days after, gradually increasing the meals and decreasing the
SEBP meatballs. You will often see an increase in mucousy poops with SEBP,
this is part of the way it soothes the digestive system, and the dog's body
will do the same sometimes even without SEBP.

1. You can feed pretty much any animal or animal part that your dog
will eat and that won't break the bank. : ) Common grocery store variety
suffices for some; chicken, turkey, pork, beef, lamb, fish, rabbit. Others
can obtain at a reasonable price and feed; goat, venison, emu, ostrich,
bison, beefalo, elk, mutton, mice, rats, guinea hen, quail, bear (bear? ;)
), the list goes on and on.

1. If you must supplement, you can add Salmon or Fish Body oil, either
in caps or liquid. Make sure it doesn't have any plant based oils, like soy,
in there. You probably don't need much. Follow the recommendations that come
with the product you buy: http://timberwolforganics.com/pet-omega-oils

http://www.icelandpure.com/salmon_oil.htm

In the case of true
disease, you may need certain supps, but this is the exception to the rule,
most dogs don't.

1. Lis' List; ways to creatively source cheaper variety in protein,
parts and organs. FreeCycle and craigslist are great ways to find a free or
cheap freezer to hold all the scores you'll be making!

> Where do you look for meat suppliers?

Permission to repost from Lis

A) Look up meat and poultry packers, processors, and distributors in

the yellow pages. You may be able to get great prices from them if

you order in bulk, and/or they may have a discount outlet that is

open to the public.

B) I get many of my best deals in Asian/Oriental markets. I've also

heard that Hispanic and Caribbean markets have great variety and

prices too.

C) You may be able to join a barter group.

D) Google breeders (i.e. rabbit, goat, lamb, etc.) who are in your

geographic area. They may have culls they want to get rid of, or

lower prices overall.

E) Look up bulk suppliers and frozen bulk foods in your yellow pages.

F) If you have a Chinatown nearby, definitely make a visit.

G) Let your friends, relatives, and neighbors know you want any

freezer burn or old meat when they clean out their freezers, and tell

them to pass the word along.

H)If you belong to a church or social group, tell those members to

mention it to their friends and relatives as well.

I) See if there are any co-ops or meat buying groups near you. Check

on Yahoo, or Google to see.

J) Try craigslist - it's amazing what you can get for free or cheap.

K) And I get meat and fish all the time (for free) through

FreeCycle. Join multiple lists if there are a few close by.

L) Some Wal-marts and some Costcos and some Sam's Clubs have good

deals, but you may want to make sure it's not seasoned meat.

M) Definitely watch the flyers, and you can usually see the rest

of the flyers online (the ones that don't get delivered to your house,

but are only a short drive away).

N) *** Hands down, the bulk of my best deals have been marked down

meat at regular grocery stores. They reduce it the day before it is

going to expire, and I go as early as I can to get it before it is

gone.

O) Tell friends and relatives who hunt and fish that you want first

dibs on any body parts they don't. You can probably get at least the

organs and maybe the head. Also ask them to put you in touch with

their other friends who hunt and fish.

P) A great tip I learned here a while back – some restaurants

throw out things they don't use, like the organs that come inside

whole poultry, or raw meat that falls on the floor. See if they'll

save them for you. Find somebody who knows somebody who works there.

Q) Farmer's markets are great, but pick and choose carefully for the

best bargains. And sometimes at the end of the day some vendors will

reduce their prices, 'cause they don't want to take it back with them.

R) Some people contact taxidermists, who have no use for the meat.

S) Find people on this list from your vicinity, and ask them where

they get their meat deals. Join other raw feeding lists (there are

many), and ask if there are other raw feeders in your area.

T) Tell your butcher you want the meat that they would normally

throw out, that is almost out of date, that people ordered and didn't

pick up, stuff that was dropped on the floor, their freezer

cleanouts, and parts that don't sell (like trachea, lungs, spleen,

etc.). Some butchers will save their trim for you (once they get to

know you). Build a relationship with them first.

U) Yes, roadkill works too (where it is legal). In some places you

can get your name on the list and get called when they have large

roadkill. (like deer)

V) You can raise your own meat/poultry if you have the room.

W) Post a message in Carnivore Feed-Supplier or CFS-Canada if you are

in North America:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CFS-Canada/

X) Speak to local farmers.

Y) Also, look for heart, tongue, and gizzards, which count as meat (as

opposed to organ) in the world of raw feeding, but are often cheaper

than other muscle meats.

Z) Find somebody who knows somebody who works at the grocery store.

They can introduce you to the meat guy, who may become more willing

to save stuff for you or reduce items about to expire, once they know

you.

AA) Check the internet. Some suppliers have affordable prices, even

after shipping costs are calculated.

Lis

On 8/27/07, beckie716 <beckie716@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com <rawfeeding%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Giselle" <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
> >thank you for your reply, I went out of town and couldn't get back
> right away.
>
> I used to feed her a raw diet of chicken, turkey, and pork, Once per
> day. I would try to get beef as often as possible. I would feed 2-3
> chicken leg quarters a day, roughly. She would refuse things bigger
> than a 3 lb. pork roast. Her favorite meat was pork(or elk if I could
> get it)
> Beckie
> The vet did "tack" her stomach.
>
> > Hi, Beckie!
> > Welcome back to the raw side!
> >
> > I have a few questions before I make any suggestions;
> > 1) What, exactly, were you used to feed?
> > 2) How many meals per day did you feed?
> > 3) How much at a meal did you feed?
> > 4) What meats did she like when you fed raw before?
> >
> > 'nother Q, did the vet tack her stomach when she torsed?
> >
> > TC
> > Giselle
> > with Bea in New Jersey
> >
> >
> > > Hello! My name is Beckie. I live in Wyoming and have a Great Dane
> > > named Lena (7 years old). (3 cats too). My dog recently suffered a
> > > near fatal gastric torsion.
> > >
> > > I used to raw feed. I have always believed a species appropriate diet
> > > was the best thing to do. However my dog always looked almost
> > > skeletal. She started to lose weight on the raw diet, no matter the
> > > amount, or the type of meat (I tried pork and other fatty meats to put
> > > weight on her).At best, she maintained her scrawny weight(100-110#'s).
> > > People started to ask me if I was to poor to feed my dog. I was
> > > actually spending a fortune on her. Once, she stayed at my mom's
> > > house, ate IAMS and gained weight. Reluctantly, I changed her over to
> > > IAMS.
> > >
> > >
> > > Now with this gastric torsion, I see that I should have stayed on the
> > > raw diet. However, I have a few concerns about switching back over.
> > >
> > > 1:no matter how starving she is, if she doesn't like it, she won't eat
> > >
> > > it.
> > > 2:She seems kind of afraid of food since her episode.
> > >
> > > 3:she used to "hork" foam+some of her meal nearly every time. really
> > > bad for my carpets
> > >
> > > 4:Raw feeding sources were/are hard to find here. (maybe there are a
> > > few more raw feeders here now, we could order together)
> > >
> > > Thank you,
> > > Sincerely,
> > >
> > > Beckie Wilson
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>

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Messages in this topic (7)
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5.1. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:13 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cypressbunny" <cypressbunny@...>
wrote:
>
> *** It is not worth the effort to go back and find the studies that
> I read several years ago because it makes little difference.

I think your memory is like mine sometimes. :) I too have never read
anywhere by any author or seen any study by anyone that even hinted
that dogs might have amalyse in their salava under any conditions.

I have read that they CAN have it in their stomach under certain
conditions but never salava. I'm not sure I even believe those
sources. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (31)
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6a. chicken eggs
Posted by: "MustBLuvSpaniels@aol.com" MustBLuvSpaniels@aol.com mustbluvspaniels
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:46 pm ((PDT))

If a dog is allergic to chicken, would it be right to assume he is allergic
to chicken eggs? Lisa

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6b. Re: chicken eggs
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:08 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Lisa!
First, you need to determine if it is chicken in kibble that
he is sensitive to, or cooked chicken meat, or raw chicken, or the
enhancements that are sometimes added to raw chicken.

Real allergies or sensitivities to raw, unenhanced chicken is rare, imo.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> If a dog is allergic to chicken, would it be right to assume he is
allergic
> to chicken eggs? Lisa

Messages in this topic (2)
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7a. First raw-Salmon
Posted by: "Penelope Quillen" copperquillpen@hotmail.com copperquillpen1958
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:47 pm ((PDT))

I had some left over salmon, raw, that I cut into bite size pieces. She
wouldn't eat it out of her bowl, so I dropped in on the floor, & the floor
is clean. She ate every bite. I'm going to have to do it slowly, because I'm
on a very limited income, right now. I've applied for SSI. I do know she
likes tuna, in the can. I've fed her some of my cooked fish before, is that
all right?
Penelope (Penny)


.

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7b. Re: First raw-Salmon
Posted by: "zest_741" zest_741@yahoo.com.au zest_741
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:39 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Penelope Quillen"
<copperquillpen@...> wrote:
>
> I had some left over salmon, raw, that I cut into bite size
pieces....

> Penelope (Penny)

>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Just to share some success, I fed my 2 Borzoi salmon heads last night
for the first time. It's the first time I have fed them any fish apart
from tinned sardines, and I expected to get the 'is that really food'
look from them (they are careful eaters).
Instead they took to it immediately, left only a bit of the bonier
part and had no digestive problems this morning.
I would never have thought of adding raw fish to their diet, let alone
heads, without this list, so thanks!
Kerry

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8. Shannon
Posted by: "Penelope Quillen" copperquillpen@hotmail.com copperquillpen1958
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:47 pm ((PDT))

Shannon,
I was just wondering about how they handled that stuff. Since this is the
first time I've gotten into this. Growing up we always fed our dogs & cats
the bag stuff, & maybe some ppl scraps. As to your ranting. I can understand
that you are angry. I would be also. I hope you "docked" her pay for not
following your directions. That would be a breach of contract. To me anyway.
Penelope PS. If it will help anyone you call me Penny

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9a. Re: Panting and lethargy
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:14 pm ((PDT))

<<...I can't remember the size/age of your dog--is that a lot of food for a meal for
him? Did he work really hard at the meal? Maybe he's just full and
tired.

I personally wouldn't give him any more food tonight...>>

Deb, It sounds to me like you're feeding too much. I gave 2/3 of what you're feeding per day to my 90 lbs. Lab and he was fine. As soon as I gave 50% more in one feeding he became lethargic and sluggish also.
I agree with Lauri, no more food for today. Hope you decided the right thing by now.
Ivette

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

---------------------------------
Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!

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Messages in this topic (6)
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10a. Re: apple cider vinegar & digestive enzymes
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:38 pm ((PDT))

<<...The more you complicate raw feeding by adding supps and additives the
less natural it is.
If you want to feed a useful supp, use Salmon or Fish Body oil. Bulk
or cap, but no plant based oils added.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey...>>

Thanks Giselle, I like simple. I'd like to wean him from the digestive enzymes since he seems to be doing so well. I've already introduced lamb, beef hearts, chicken gizzards and a little beef liver and all goes well. He so loves his chicken, it's his favorite. I have some pork in the fridge, that's next. I've read here that some dogs get loose poop from pork so I'll use the digestive enzymes when I feed that.
Thanks again,
Ivette

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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10b. Re: apple cider vinegar & digestive enzymes
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:39 pm ((PDT))

<<...Today. His body is perfectly capable of producing the necessary
enzymes to digest RMBs and organs if you just stand back and let it
happen. The more you "help" them, the slower the learning process
is...>>

I started giving digestive enzymes only because he was throwing up food whole. After the digestive enzymes he's been doing just fine. I'm going to wean him of it starting tomorrow (he's eaten all he's going to today). He's only been on full raw for 3 weeks.
I made the mistake of feeding ki**le for one feeding and raw for next for about 2 months. That could've been the culprit but I didn't know until recently when I switched to 100% raw. I believe there's no need for enzymes now.
Thanks,
Ivette

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

---------------------------------
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

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Messages in this topic (8)
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10c. Re: apple cider vinegar & digestive enzymes
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:14 pm ((PDT))

<<...I think you should simply let Nugget get on with his life. The runs
are invariably caused by too much food or too much fat or too much
new. Instead of trying to fix Nugget (who isn't broken), I recommend
you back off, reduce amounts, feed smaller meals more frequently. When
he restabilizes, carry on.

Nugget is fully capable of digesting his food without you messing with
his water supply. If you cannot adjust his diet appropriately and you
have try a different approach, buy a good protein/fat digestive
enzyme. Vinegar is not the answer.
Chris O...>>

No, sorry, I think you misunderstood. I was asking about the vinegar only because I'd heard/read it somewhere.
Nugget no longer has loose poop, He's been stable and doing well for the last 3 weeks. He's eaten mostly chicken, and within the past week, I included beef hearts, did well with that, then a little liver, did well with that too. I never said anything about monitoring his water, hmmm? where did that come from?
Since I started raw I've been giving him digestive enzymes (about 3 months). Now that he's doing so well, I was just wondering if I can decrease or stop the digestive enzymes.
Giselle recommended weaning him gradually from the enzymes. What do you think?

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

---------------------------------
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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11a. organ meats
Posted by: "Linda Gower" pudeltime@bellsouth.net pudeltime
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:03 pm ((PDT))

Well, the boys had their first taste of venison this morning - and let me tell you, chicken definitely pales in comparison. Venison is the darkest red meat I've ever seen. Anyway, I added a chunk to breakfast a bit larger chunk to supper. It was a leg roast and I realized upon cutting it up that the bone was still in there. They'll have fun picking the meat off of it!

So, I started to search in the archives, but thought I'd ask. Where do mountain oysters, pig fries etc fall in the organ category? Meaty meat, or more in the liver categorie? I may be able to get some when my BIL castrates calves this fall, just wondered if it were worth the effort to get them, or were they super delicacies? I know the farm dogs used to steal away with them post haste when we'd be doing herd work.

Linda Gower
Chase - loved that deer meat mom - more please!
Lance - forget the gizzards - blech!! just venison!

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Messages in this topic (16)
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11b. Re: organ meats
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:42 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Linda!
They're organs, but not to be fed in place of liver. They
fall into the 5% other organs, (5% liver) in the total diet.
I say, feed 'em when you got 'em.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

<snip>
> So, I started to search in the archives, but thought I'd ask. Where
do mountain oysters, pig fries etc fall in the organ category? Meaty
meat, or more in the liver category? I may be able to get some when my
BIL castrates calves this fall, just wondered if it were worth the
effort to get them, or were they super delicacies? I know the farm
dogs used to steal away with them post haste when we'd be doing herd
work.
>
> Linda Gower
> Chase - loved that deer meat mom - more please!
> Lance - forget the gizzards - blech!! just venison!

Messages in this topic (16)
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12a. Re: Why not raw with kibble & fat deposits
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:04 pm ((PDT))

<<...I read and research extensively. I have learned the fundamentals
(it's not rocket science...)and am having no problems feeding my dog
raw. I did not ask the initial question; I have seen that such
questions are open to wild misinterpretation here. But if it is a
question on the mind of someone who is just starting to feed raw,
then YES, it does need to be addressed... at least IMHO.

Knowledge, research, and common sense supports raw feeding. It's OK
to ask questions, because we are not afraid of truthful answers, are
we? ...>>

Excellent point, Lori. I feel the same way. Just the fact that raw is species appropriate, "period", is sometimes not enough to convince some people that this is the way to go. They need the data, research, biological facts etc... Many years of having the commercial food industry and vets tell us that dogs should eat like humans has made many doubtful that raw is the way to go. I'm having a struggle with that in my own home. We've finally switched to 100% raw in the last 3 weeks. Now he sees, it's ok, and may be better than ok. WHEW, what a relief. So there was some good that came from the contaminated pet food this past year. Scared us into taking the plunge into raw.
Does anyone know if rawfeeding can help prevent fat deposits in older dogs? Mine has one and possibly another developing. Since we just started rawfeeding a short time ago, we suspect it started developing before then.

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (2)
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12b. Re: Why not raw with kibble & fat deposits
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:18 pm ((PDT))

Ivette Casiano <ivettecasiano@...> wrote:

> Does anyone know if rawfeeding can help prevent fat deposits
in older dogs? Mine has one and possibly another developing. Since we
just started rawfeeding a short time ago, we suspect it started
developing before then.
*****
This was discussed recently on another list because of an article in
I think WDJ written by Marty Goldstein, wherein he says pretty
unequivocally that lipomas (fatty tumors) are a sign that something
else is going on that's not so good. Period.

Which leads us again back to the idea that a good species appropriate
diet with optimal nutrition and the very best of intentions isn't
necessarily enough to see a dog through the slings and arrows of
outrageous fortune. You have to fix the whole shebang--diet,
lifestyle management, medical care.

If you can wring any more pertinent info from the magazine, perhaps
you might pass it on to us?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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13a. Re: Thanks Bill
Posted by: "ittybittybullies" ittybittybullies@yahoo.com ittybittybullies
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:48 pm ((PDT))

I will see to it that I feed Sunny the whole chicken in parts, thanks for the comment.
erick C

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14a. Re: shiba new to raw with watery diarrhea and vomiting
Posted by: "Shirley" ssthunderpony@yahoo.com ssthunderpony
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:49 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Morledzep@... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 8/26/2007 9:25:45 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> megan.giselle@... writes:
>
> Why not just order the diatomaceous earth online?
> Food grade is best.

#@##### Whoa now, Food grade is the ''" ONLY "'' grade of DE to be
used.

Swimming pool filter DE has toxic chemical additives ! ! ! !

Be careful of what you advise.

Shirley
imagegermanshepherds.com
est. 1959

Messages in this topic (15)
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15. Lily Update
Posted by: "Carrie Kelly" winencandy@yahoo.ca winencandy
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:51 pm ((PDT))

Hi,
I wanted to give a Lily update. Lily is a Papillon puppy. She will be 16 weeks old on Wednesday. She has been raw fed since I brought her home from the breeder at 7 weeks. Lily is full of energy and beautiful, everyone comments on her soft coat ( and her big ears). She eats chicken (& heart & liver), beef (& heart & liver), pork, lamb, moose, and venison, with an occasional FBO capsule added. The only bone she can eat so far is chicken (usually breast). The only organ I have given her so far has been liver, but my husband is a hunter and deer and moose season are coming soon. He says that I can help myself to what ever I want out of the "gut bucket" when they butcher the deer.
About a month ago, I gave her a chicken breast, and while I was out of the room, she started to gag on some fat - my dh & daughter freaked. So now if I'm not going to be there, (rarely) I cut up her meat for them to feed her. When she eats it pre-cut, she gets hic-ups. (She eats about 2 oz at a time). When I am there she gets large pieces of meat. (It's very easy to feed bigger than her head), but they don't feel comfortable supervising that. Of course, she prefers her meat cut up and she sometimes waits to see if I'll cut it for her, but I don't play that game.
I feed her 3 times a day. One problem that I have is that if she gets a chance, she will make a beeline for the cat's ki##le, (I'm working on the cat, but as you all know, cats have their own adjenda). Why does she crave the cat's food? What am I missing in her diet?
Carrie K

WinenCandy

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