[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11964

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Feeding Big .... and Hornets Too!
From: Giselle

2a. Re: Frothy vomit
From: Andrea
2b. Re: Frothy vomit
From: Tina Berry

3a. Re: First Raw Feeding
From: Giselle

4.1. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
From: costrowski75
4.2. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
From: chaparraltrail
4.3. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
From: cypressbunny
4.4. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
From: darkstardog
4.5. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
From: cypressbunny

5a. Has anyone raised animals for dog food?
From: Crystal
5b. Re: Has anyone raised animals for dog food?
From: cypressbunny

6a. Duck liver= fat??;foie gras ??
From: Yasuko herron
6b. Re: Duck liver= fat??;foie gras ??
From: Susanne MacLeod
6c. Re: Duck liver= fat??;foie gras ??
From: PAM CURL
6d. Re: Duck liver= fat??;foie gras ??
From: Morledzep@aol.com
6e. Re: Duck liver= fat??;foie gras ??
From: Yasuko herron

7a. Re: Need support on raw feeding
From: Olga
7b. Re: Need support on raw feeding
From: Carol

8a. Re: Photos of raw eating
From: Shannon Hully

9a. Re: New to Raw
From: Olga

10a. Trouble with Bone Variety
From: lolapig1
10b. Re: Trouble with Bone Variety
From: Morledzep@aol.com
10c. Re: Trouble with Bone Variety
From: Yasuko herron

11a. Re: Back to raw
From: beckie716

12a. Score!
From: Chrissy

Messages
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1a. Re: Feeding Big .... and Hornets Too!
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:24 am ((PDT))

Hi, Christine!
YQW!
Learning how dogs learn and trying to view RL the way they see it has
been, and continues to be, an enlightening and humbling experience for me.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

heh heh, Sue, eh?

> Thanks!
> It never occurred to me that knowing what to eat would have some
context
> base to it! It makes sense, I just didn't see it before! I just
assumed
> they'd see and smell it and voila - feeding frenzy! I'm right there
> with ya in the School of the Flat Forehead - Class of 2007!!
>
> I'll check out those traps. Thanks!
>
> Christine
>
> Giselle wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi, Christine!
> > Just like some dogs don't 'get' at first that a chicken
> > leg or breast is 'real' food after a lifetime of kibble, feeding Big
> > for the first time can also puzzle dogs. Dogs look at context and
> > smells and outlines for recognition, the 'whole picture', if you will.
> > So, changes in what they have come to recognize as 'the norm' can
> > throw them, even if we think that 'its natural' that they should take
> > to eating raw or eating Big Food right away.
> >.....
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Re: Frothy vomit
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:29 am ((PDT))

How is Poe feeling now? Is she acting differently? I've only seen
frothy vomit with my dogs when they are expecting to eat, so I'm afraid
I'm not much help in determining what the problem is. FWIW, I have a
dog that has adverse reactions to enhanced chicken, but it makes him
itchy, no vomiting. I hope poe is feeling better by now.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Nathalie Poulin
<poulin_nathalie@...> wrote:
>
> I gave Poe (50lbs german shepherd/husky X) some pork
> yesturday and I'm pretty sure it was enhanced (I
> checked the package but it didn't say anything on it).
>
> Last night she spent the night vomiting up what looks
> like frothy saliva.

Messages in this topic (7)
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2b. Re: Frothy vomit
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:41 am ((PDT))

"Has anyone experienced this? How long does it last? Should I take her to
the vet? My mom says her dog did
the same thing when given enhanced pork but it wasn't quite as bad as this.
I'm hoping the frothy saliva is
just her body trying to get rid of the enhanced stuff and that by tomorrow
she'll be feeling better."

I just experienced the same thing with Ruger, all 4 eat exactly the same
thing (right now raw chicken, I'm out of venison) and he threw up what
looked (and smelled) like he ate poop (maybe he did, and he never does this
anymore); then heaved for a few hours, then all the yellow foam came up
(meaning out of things to throw up, this is stomach bile) wouldn't drink any
water, but the next day he was fine and still is - this happened a few days
ago.

I hope yours cleared up.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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3a. Re: First Raw Feeding
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:51 am ((PDT))

Hi, Penelope!
You pretty much have to feed a cat what and how they will
eat. It can be very hard to switch a cat completely over to all raw.
Variety, especially, seems to be something cats resist.
You gotta feed them every day, you shouldn't just fast them until they
get used to eating what you serve, like a dog.

My suggestion would be to sprinkle little bits of raw fish or meat on
top of, or near her regular food, and add more gradually. If it takes
dropping bits on the floor to tempt her into thinking she's getting
something special she shouldn't have, then I'd do that. Eventually,
you can build up to slightly bigger, then larger chunks of food. Fish
bones are the softest, they might be the ones most easily introduced.
Game Hen or rabbit bones are small and softer too.

Cats often like organs, like liver, heart, gizzards and kidney. You
don't want to feed those exclusively, but you could sprinkle bits on
top of a new meat you're trying to get them to eat. Fish Body or
Salmon oil, if your cat likes it, can be a good supp for dry skin or
coat. You can also smear a new food with some to make it more acceptable.

Mixing some smelly canned fish, like sardines or mackerel with new, or
refused meat bits can make them more palatable for a cat.
If she's a mouser, you could also try offering her mice.
http://www.rodentpro.com/products.asp

The raw cat list would be helpful to you, too.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawcat/
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I would like some advice. I have a cat. What should be her first raw
> feeding? Fish, with or without bones, or chicken. I know she likes
livers,
> both beef & chicken. Her skin seems a little dry around her tail
area. She
> drinks plenty of water. <snip>
So I don't know if she was full or she wasn't sure. Advice, Please.
Penelope Q.

Messages in this topic (2)
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4.1. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:27 am ((PDT))

"chaparraltrail" <chaparraltrail@...> wrote:
>we are not afraid of truthful answers, are
> we?
>
> Lori
*****
I have no idea what your limitations are.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (30)
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4.2. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
Posted by: "chaparraltrail" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:11 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "chaparraltrail" <chaparraltrail@> wrote:
> >we are not afraid of truthful answers, are
> > we?
> >
> > Lori
> *****
> I have no idea what your limitations are.
> Chris O

I seek the truth, and do not place personal limits on where the truth
might take me, even if it challenges my presumptions.

For purposes of this list: Limited to information about feeding dogs a
raw diet, but my general approach in all matters.

Lori

Messages in this topic (30)
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4.3. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:34 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "clmu81" <clmu@...> wrote:
>
> The body continues to add acid into the stomach to keep the pH low
> enough to promote digestion. Thus, the pH would not rise more with
> kibble than with raw meat. This experiment does not accurately
> reflect the dynamic process in the stomach.

*** The pH of the dog's stomach depends on the food fed. When meat
is
fed, the pH drops low. When non-meats are fed it does not. If the pH
is low amylase (if present) is destroyed and starches are not broken
down. If the
pH is higher, the meat is not digested properly. Pavlov discovered
all
of this over 100 years ago. It amazes me that the matter continues
to
be debated.

*** I don't know why anyone would feed kibble at all, but there is
little benefit and potential risk to feeding kibble and raw meat
together. One or the other will not be digested properly.

*** The following is not a discovery of Pavlov's but my own
speculation as to the evolutionary mechanism behind the discoveries
about doggie digestion that Pavlov did make: wild wolves don't eat
plant foods if meat is available, so there is no reason that they
would need to digest them at the same time. When times are tough and
good food isn't available, wolves can produce salivary amylase to
start breaking down starches, and the stomach pH remains high enough
not to completely inactivate it. Thus, they may be able to stave off
starvation until prey is again available.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (30)
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4.4. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
Posted by: "darkstardog" darkstardog@charter.net darkstardog
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:47 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cypressbunny" <cypressbunny@...>
wrote:
>
>> *** The pH of the dog's stomach depends on the food fed. When meat
> is
> fed, the pH drops low. When non-meats are fed it does not. If the
pH > is low amylase (if present) is destroyed and starches are not
broken down. If the pH is higher, the meat is not digested
properly. Pavlov discovered all > of this over 100 years ago. It
amazes me that the matter continues to be debated.
>
> *** The following is not a discovery of Pavlov's but my own
> speculation as to the evolutionary mechanism behind the discoveries
> about doggie digestion that Pavlov did make: wild wolves don't eat
> plant foods if meat is available, so there is no reason that they
> would need to digest them at the same time. When times are tough
and
> good food isn't available, wolves can produce salivary amylase to
> start breaking down starches, and the stomach pH remains high
enough
> not to completely inactivate it. Thus, they may be able to stave
off
> starvation until prey is again available.

But there is protein in kibble too. I think the pH of stomach
contents has to be a result of several factors, including the
buffering ability of the food, and it will change over time after
eating.

I have only found one source (a table in a book) that said dogs had
salivary amylase, and I was unable to find the source for that entry
in the table. Other than that, vets have told me that dogs do not
make salivary amylse under any conditions. If wolves and dogs
retained the baility to make salivary amylase, you'd think dogs would
surely produce it on kibble diets, and it would be easily measurable
(and easy to differentiate from pancreatic amylase in the blood.) So
I'd like to know your source that wolves, or dogs, can make salivary
amylase.

Marty

Messages in this topic (30)
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4.5. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:08 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "darkstardog" <darkstardog@...>
wrote:
>
>
> But there is protein in kibble too. I think the pH of stomach
> contents has to be a result of several factors, including the
> buffering ability of the food, and it will change over time after
> eating.

*** What you think notwithstanding, Pavlov showed that the pH of the
dog stomach lowered in direct proportion to the protein the diet.
Pavlov used raw meat and milk as his protein sources.

> Other than that, vets have told me that dogs do not
> make salivary amylse under any conditions.

*** Vets have told me a lot of things that weren't true. Although,
if dogs do not produce salivary amylase (which I grant that they do
not when fed a proper diet), why feed them plant foods at all? Since
carnivores produce little if any salivary amylase, and omnivores
produce lots...

If wolves and dogs
> retained the baility to make salivary amylase, you'd think dogs
would
> surely produce it on kibble diets, and it would be easily
measurable
> (and easy to differentiate from pancreatic amylase in the blood.)

*** Indeed. The earliest studies were done before the advent of
kibble, and conclusively proved that carnivores including dogs do
not produce salivary amylase. Since then some have concluded that
they do, some have concluded that they do not. If I recall Pavlov
discovered some enzymes in the stomach but not specifically ones in
the saliva. He did observe that the character and quantity of saliva
differed markedly between dogs fed raw meat and dogs fed bread.

*** It is not worth the effort to go back and find the studies that
I read several years ago because it makes little difference. I don't
intend ever to feed my dogs a sub-optimal diet that would benefit
from the ability to produce salivary amylase.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (30)
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5a. Has anyone raised animals for dog food?
Posted by: "Crystal" boalady@hotmail.com livinzoo
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:10 am ((PDT))

I'm thinking about raising some pigs for myself and possibly some
sheep (Katahdin) or goats for the dogs. I'm curious if anyone has
done this.

Crystal

Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: Has anyone raised animals for dog food?
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:08 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Crystal" <boalady@...> wrote:
>
> I'm thinking about raising some pigs for myself and possibly some
> sheep (Katahdin) or goats for the dogs. I'm curious if anyone has
> done this.

*** I raise chickens, turkeys, rabbits, goats, and sheep. You can
contact me off list since raising farm animals isn't really on topic
here.

--Carrie
cypressbunny @ yahoo.com

Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Duck liver= fat??;foie gras ??
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:43 am ((PDT))

Hi. After the big diarrhea days couple of days ago,palette moved on to familiar protins source from Duck and her poo is back to normal. Before moving on,I tried half fatskin off Duck with chiken and she did fine.So,next time I back her on Duck,I guess start from skin off with combo meal.

Now,my question isthat,the other day,I wastalking to my husband about Duck liver (haven't fed to palette yet,and kept in freezer),and we were wondering if liver itself is fat because expensive foie gras is Duck liver and from what I saw on Food network show,it sounds like foie gras is all fat;TV suggested that foie grass should quickly seared,otherwise you end up messy grease left in the pan.

So, I know that Beef or other liver has all nutrient like Vitamin A etc but Duck liver is exceptional?

yassy

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (5)
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6b. Re: Duck liver= fat??;foie gras ??
Posted by: "Susanne MacLeod" suzmacleod@rogers.com skull25ca
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:26 am ((PDT))

Duck Liver is differnt from fois gras. Geese are force fed to create a
fatty liver - see below...

http://www.ochef.com/532.htm

Fois gras is also not always seared, but sometimes fed cold as well.
Not to mention it's about $30 for an ounce in the stores...very
different.
Suz Kate and Joey

Messages in this topic (5)
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6c. Re: Duck liver= fat??;foie gras ??
Posted by: "PAM CURL" bpcurl@verizon.net bpcurl
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:06 pm ((PDT))

Plus it is a very cruel way that they use to fatten up these goose
livers--(Fois gras) .
Some restaurants will no longer serve them.
If it is liver taken from your average goose during butchering, that is
different.
JMO,
Pam C
>
>
>
> All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying
> on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated
> with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You
> agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal
> responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs,
> cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you
> don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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6d. Re: Duck liver= fat??;foie gras ??
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:24 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/27/2007 8:45:08 AM Pacific Standard Time,
sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com writes:

So, I know that Beef or other liver has all nutrient like Vitamin A etc but
Duck liver is exceptional?

Yassy,

duck liver is just liver from another animal.. it's not big enough to worry
about, feed it with the duck and relax. Liver isn't generally fatty, i don't
know if the liver you've got is, i don't know if duck liver is fatty, or if
it's supposed to be fatty. i know it's liver and i believe, especially with
poultry, that you should feed the organs from that animal when you feed that
animal to the dogs.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

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6e. Re: Duck liver= fat??;foie gras ??
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:05 pm ((PDT))

>Duck Liver is differnt from fois gras. Geese are force fed to create a fatty liver - see >below... http://www.ochef.com/532.htm

Hi.Thank you for the link. I always had been thinking that foie gras is Duck liver not Geese and always foie gras link came up when I tried to search Duck related stuff.. and my husband was thinking that way too.

So,I guess Duck liver I got with whole Duck is no different from other poultry liver then.

I did not know that Geese liver is enlarged liver..too.

I keep Duck liver in freezer and when right time comes,I feed to my dog slowly.

Thanks,

yassy

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (5)
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7a. Re: Need support on raw feeding
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:35 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "vickies_28" <vickies_28@...> wrote:
> Sometimes I really doubt myself, maybe I was the one to cause the
> death
> of my beloved puppy by feeding him raw. I read a lot online about
> meats
> being full of hormones, genetically altered, antibiotics, etc

And do you think that kibble is made from quality cuts of organic,
free-range meats? That's why it's so cheap and can sit on the shelves
for months, right?

What you are doing is the best for your pup. These types of diseases
are caused by many things, but quality food is not one of them. While
you're learning, I would encourage you to look into health testing and
doing mucho research when choosing a responsible breeder. Please also
learn about the dangers of vaccines and pesticides like flea, tick,
heartworm meds.

I'm so sorry that you lost your pup. It was NOT your fault. You are
doing the best for the new puppy by starting him off with healthy,
wholesome food.

Olga

Messages in this topic (6)
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7b. Re: Need support on raw feeding
Posted by: "Carol" onejoyfulmoose@yahoo.com onejoyfulmoose
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:36 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Bumble1994@... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 8/27/2007 12:24:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> "vickies_28" writes:
>
> now that we got another dog, they say I will kill this one with
the raw diet
> as I did kill the first one.
>
> Vickie,

Don't ever feel that you caused your dog to get cancer.
>
> Cancer is the only disease, if I remember correctly, that both
humans and dogs get that is virtually identical. And there is
currently lots of research going on right now about that
relationship. There are lots of contributing factors that can cause
cancer, but even tiny children get it and the same goes w/our
furbabies.It can come on so suddenly you don't even know until it's
too late.

Anyone needing support for a canine with cancer should check out the
website for Millies Millions. There are 3 super links to refer to,
the one from Kris Thut, shows my Leo's daddy a few months after he
was diagnosed. They are a wonderful, knowledgeable group with
several very highly recommended canine cancer specialists as part of
their group.

Carol Scerba,
Moose & Joy,
>
>
>
> ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-
new AOL at
> http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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8a. Re: Photos of raw eating
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:56 am ((PDT))

Penelope,

I'm not Jamie but thought I'd answer anyway. :-)

>My question for you is: are the feathers good for the
> digestion? It seems to me that they would get caught somewhere.

*** Speaking as someone who has transitioned her cats from kibble
through Frankenprey all the way to whole prey, I personally feel
that "as natural as possible" means exactly that. The more of the
prey that is left on, the healthier for the animals. Look at it this
way, no one is out there plucking birds and skinning bunnies for
animals in the wild!

Their systems have to have developped to use what they eat, correct?
Otherwise they'd pluck the stuff off and leave it in the wild. Fur
and feathers, beaks and nails, they're all extra roughage. They help
create bulk to aid peristalsis, moving food from point A to point
B. :-)

My cats, as examples, eat chicks, small guinea pigs, rats, and quail
chicks. Whole. No difficulties, though one is pickier about his
quail, I think he doesn't much like the feathers. He used to pluck
them off, hehe. But it's funny, he recently grasped just how good
he's got it. We went on a trip for two weeks this month and my
petsitter went totally against my wishes and fed my cats kibble (Evo,
but still!) because she couldn't handle bodies. (royally ticked me
off, she knew before-hand and had a month to tell me she couldn't
handle it, I could have had time to find someone else (which, lets
face it, is probably why she didn't tell me, it's all about the
money, eh?)) At any rate I got home after two weeks to find my
KITTEN (he turned one while we were gone) FAT. He was sleek and at a
PERFECT body weight and shape when we left, he is now huge! I was in
tears, looking at him and immediately rushed off to weigh him. Poor
guy packed on a 45% increase in weight in 2 weeks!! I was so mad
(still am, in case you can't tell!) I ranted about it for days.
(hmmm, would seem I'm still ranting, hehe)

At any rate, the one cat (not my kitten who will eat anything... even
the crap in a bag) now eats *most* of his quail chicks, hehe. He was
so happy to see us and as soon as we walked in and he'd said
his "hello!" he ran right to the freezer and watched me (impatiently)
as I got out some food for dinner and the next day's breakfast. My
poor kitten took a few meals to get back into the swing of things.
The first meal he got he actually played with it (been a while since
he did that!) and then left it, wondering where his food was! Ugh,
silly kitten. Once he accidentally bit it hard enough to break he
skin he settled right down to eat it though, so he's on the mend.

Um... what was I originally answering? Sorry, I guess I got carried
off on a rant! Feathers and fur are good for them, hehe!

Shannon

Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. Re: New to Raw
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:26 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Cathy" <csc12122005@...> wrote:
> I have a 3 year old, 77 pound, 3 foot tall Greyhound that has been
> diagnosed, misdiagnosed etc. He was diagnosed over 2 years ago with
> hypothyroidism and then about 6 months ago with IBD.

Hi Cathy, and welcome to rawfeeding! I also have a grey, so I'm very
familiar with the digestive issues that frequently plaque the breed.
You will get the best of advice here, I switched my dogs to raw
following the guidelines here about 2.5 years ago and we've had great
success! Mayhem never had a solid poop on kibble, no matter the kinds
I tried, and I won't even mention the gas!

> We are currently
> giving him chicken legs, wings, turkey necks (very large ones). He
> does not like thighs (chicken) and the turkey thighs got stuck on
> his molars, so I am a little scared of these.

My grey is about 75 lbs, so pretty close to yours, and when I feed
chicken, typically he would get half a chicken or 2-3 chicken leg
quarters (depending on how big they are, and how big his previous meal
was). When we switched to raw we also went from feeding twice daily
to once - one of the reasons for this is so I could give him bigger
portions to work on. This helps to clean his teeth, which is another
problem area for most greyhounds.

I've never fed turkey necks, but I usually get whole turkeys when
they're on sale and use a big old kitchen knife to cut it into say 6
pieces or so. I feed this turkey for a meal and toss the rest of the
portions into the freezer.

After we did chicken and then chicken and turkey for a couple of
weeks, I started adding other meats, but you can basically do this
when your dog is having firm stools and no digestion issues. We fed
some pork next, starting with pork riblets and ribs of which I would
add a few to the existing chicken or turkey meal. Then I would buy a
pork picnic roast which is much more meaty, and cut it into a few meat
chunks (to be fed with said ribs, or a chicken/turkey part) and leave
the bone in the middle with lots of meat as another meal. We also
feed pork hocks (this is a section of the leg, you want a good sized
one not a little slice that some stores sell).

Once you're good with the pork, you can start adding beef, lamb, or
whole fish. Most beef I feed is boneless, just because most beef
bones are too hard to consume and can pose a risk to those (now
sparkling clean) white teeth. Lamb is pricey around here, so I watch
for sales, but a lamb shoulder is a great size for Mayhem. Eventually
you'll want to add some organs like kidney and liver, but they can
loosen stools a bit - give them a try, in tiny bits, once things are
going well and you feel comfortable trying it.

> Do we need to supplement?

Some people feed veggies, or fruit, or even grains and call it a raw
diet. I don't, and neither do most people here. A variety of meats,
and animal parts will give you complete nutrition, with one meat
filling in the gaps for another. I only supplement with fish oil,
because most of the meat we have access to these days is not raised
naturally and so it ends up very high in Omega 6 and very low in Omega
3. My grey gets usually 2 capsules per day - fish oil is also a good
anti-inflammatory (i.e. for joint issues) and helps to keep their coat
shiny.

I'm afraid I did a little information overload here - sorry! If there
are other questions, do feel free to ask, we're very good at helping
people figure these things out!

Olga

Messages in this topic (26)
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10a. Trouble with Bone Variety
Posted by: "lolapig1" lolapig@gmail.com lolapig1
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:49 pm ((PDT))

My husband and I have scavenged the metro (we live in Kansas City),
have checked with independent grocers, butchers, restraunt suppliers,
and ethnic stores... and have little to no luck finding a variety of
bones.

Our dogs (1 Boston 20lbs/2yrs and 1 Lab mix 40lbs/2.5yrs) are just
sick to death of chicken bones. The Boston will occasionally eat some
drummies and the Lab Mix will occasionally take a whack at some turkey
wings... but other than that we are just at a loss.
They snack on beef rib bones, but obviously those are a bit hard for
them to digest in a meal sitting.

We started raw feeding in February and the dogs took immediately too
it, but I am just not getting the variety in that I know they need. I
would HATE to return to kibble because of the lack of food available
in my area, especially since the Boston isn't able to digest most kibble.

Any suggestions or thoughts would be most helpful!
Thanks!

*Sarah in KC

Messages in this topic (3)
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10b. Re: Trouble with Bone Variety
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:05 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/27/2007 1:50:58 PM Pacific Standard Time,
lolapig@gmail.com writes:

My husband and I have scavenged the metro (we live in Kansas City),
have checked with independent grocers, butchers, restraunt suppliers,
and ethnic stores... and have little to no luck finding a variety of
bones.

ok.. can you find the MEAT section of your grocery store? if you wander
through, you will see a section with poultry, and a section with pork, and a
section with beef. and if you're lucky there will be a lamb/other stuff section.

stop in the pork section and pick up a pork picnic roast, or a shoulder butt
roast, and/or a slab of spare ribs.

then stop in the beef section and buy a whole boneless brisket.

now you have enough food to feed your dogs for 2 or 3 weeks.. see how easy
that was. When that food is gone, go back and do it again.

Catherine R.

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10c. Re: Trouble with Bone Variety
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:13 pm ((PDT))

>Our dogs (1 Boston 20lbs/2yrs and 1 Lab mix 40lbs/2.5yrs) are just sick to death of >chicken bones. The Boston will occasionally eat some drummies and the Lab Mix will >occasionally take a whack at some turkey wings... but other than that we are just at a loss

Hi. You can give many variety of bone without too much trouble.

Cheapest bone we can give will be whole chicken's bone and chicken feet (snack,and dogs love them. If you have shoppers around,they sell 2 dollar something per package)

Poultry bones are all consumable so, you can get Whole Chicken,Whole Turkey,Whole Pheasant(hare today gone tomorrow in PA sells Whole pheasant),and at grocery store,you can get Cornish Game hen(I found them in frozen section),and Whole Duck(some people find it at Asian store and I found at local grocerystore's frozen section)

Beef; you can get at grocerystore;ribs,neck(I got Beef neck from shoppers),Ox tail(oxtail is not 1 inch cutted tiny pieces but you can ask the meat guy about Whole ox tail)

Pork;feet (recreational but all consumable and you can find at Asian store),ribs,neck

Lamb;Ribs,Neck(I found Lamb Neck at shoppers grocerystore)

etc..

For poultry,I give all parts of bird because all consumable and other 4 legged animal,I tend to get ribs and neck and when I feed ribs and Neck,I add more meat to that meal.

I don't feed legs of 4 legged animals except pork.

It is also good idea to join in local rawfeeding yahoo group,and you get more local info there like where others get meat from etc.

But,dog needs meat more than bone so,I don't go deep hunting getting variety of bones.I just get rib and neck plus sometimes tail from 4 legged animals.I personally thinking it is good enough.

Good Luck!

yassy

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Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

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11a. Re: Back to raw
Posted by: "beckie716" beckie716@yahoo.com beckie716
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:17 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>thank you for your reply, I went out of town and couldn't get back
right away.

I used to feed her a raw diet of chicken, turkey, and pork, Once per
day. I would try to get beef as often as possible. I would feed 2-3
chicken leg quarters a day, roughly. She would refuse things bigger
than a 3 lb. pork roast. Her favorite meat was pork(or elk if I could
get it)
Beckie
The vet did "tack" her stomach.

> Hi, Beckie!
> Welcome back to the raw side!
>
> I have a few questions before I make any suggestions;
> 1) What, exactly, were you used to feed?
> 2) How many meals per day did you feed?
> 3) How much at a meal did you feed?
> 4) What meats did she like when you fed raw before?
>
> 'nother Q, did the vet tack her stomach when she torsed?
>
> TC
> Giselle
> with Bea in New Jersey
>
>
> > Hello! My name is Beckie. I live in Wyoming and have a Great Dane
> > named Lena (7 years old). (3 cats too). My dog recently suffered a
> > near fatal gastric torsion.
> >
> > I used to raw feed. I have always believed a species appropriate diet
> > was the best thing to do. However my dog always looked almost
> > skeletal. She started to lose weight on the raw diet, no matter the
> > amount, or the type of meat (I tried pork and other fatty meats to put
> > weight on her).At best, she maintained her scrawny weight(100-110#'s).
> > People started to ask me if I was to poor to feed my dog. I was
> > actually spending a fortune on her. Once, she stayed at my mom's
> > house, ate IAMS and gained weight. Reluctantly, I changed her over to
> > IAMS.
> >
> >
> > Now with this gastric torsion, I see that I should have stayed on the
> > raw diet. However, I have a few concerns about switching back over.
> >
> > 1:no matter how starving she is, if she doesn't like it, she won't eat
> >
> > it.
> > 2:She seems kind of afraid of food since her episode.
> >
> > 3:she used to "hork" foam+some of her meal nearly every time. really
> > bad for my carpets
> >
> > 4:Raw feeding sources were/are hard to find here. (maybe there are a
> > few more raw feeders here now, we could order together)
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Beckie Wilson
> >
>

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12a. Score!
Posted by: "Chrissy" hylesrayburn@sbcglobal.net tresuregarden
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:20 pm ((PDT))

I am proud of myself!

Today when the butcher came I asked him if I could buy RMB's and organs that usually go to the rendering plant. He said yes, that I could have them. He said people come in all the time wanting them for soups.. I kind of laughed, and told him I would not be using them for soup that I was a vegetarian and would be feeding them to the dog. So looks like we will have good supply of green tripe, and all the other good innards as well as some RMB's. the best part is that he isn't going to charge me for it. (they have to pay the rendering plant to take the stuff away)

I also got a pretty good price on the slaughter, he knocked of some of the price because I a, having it bagged instead of wrapped. There is no way that we are going to eat a older ram... I am sure that the dogs will like it. They have just finished up what was left of the lamb that I had in the freezer, poor dogs had to eat rack of rib all weekend...

I will go down to get some stuff in the next few days, depending on what he drops off at my house this evening. He is supposed to drop off all the innards of the ram that I had butchered. He said that he doesn't take that stuff into the shop, he guts all the animals outside before they go in.

I think that there was a lady on this list who lives in Visalia, Ca I am willing to share the bounty of the butchers remains. Just email me privately.

I am excited to feed green tripe, I think that we will have happy campers tonight!

Chrissy

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