[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11963

There are 24 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
From: costrowski75
1b. Why not to feed raw with kibble
From: darkstardog
1c. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
From: chaparraltrail

2a. Re: Frothy vomit
From: Sandee Lee
2b. Re: Frothy vomit
From: carnesbill

3a. Re: New to Raw
From: Morledzep@aol.com
3b. Re: New to Raw
From: Giselle

4a. Re: Puppies and variety of meats
From: costrowski75
4b. Puppies and variety of meats
From: Michael Moore

5a. Re: Panting and lethargy
From: ptmagi
5b. Re: Panting and lethargy
From: ptmagi

6a. Re: shiba new to raw with watery diarrhea and vomiting
From: Brandi Bryant
6b. Re: shiba new to raw with watery diarrhea and vomiting
From: Giselle
6c. Re: shiba new to raw with watery diarrhea and vomiting
From: Morledzep@aol.com
6d. Re: shiba new to raw with watery diarrhea and vomiting
From: deep_ocean_of_sorrow

7a. Re: apple cider vinegar & digestive enzymes
From: costrowski75
7b. Re: apple cider vinegar & digestive enzymes
From: Sandee Lee

8.1. Re: newbie
From: Sandee Lee

9.1. Re: Questions
From: carnesbill
9.2. Re: Questions
From: Giselle

10a. Re: Need support on raw feeding
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

11a. blanket statement
From: blue eyed

12a. Re: Feeding Big .... and Hornets Too!
From: woofwoofgrrl

13. First Raw Feeding
From: Penelope Quillen

Messages
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1a. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:26 pm ((PDT))

"chaparraltrail" <chaparraltrail@...> wrote:
> Those of you with all the years of practical experienc, and all the
> wonderful practical advice, need to understand that the scinece
> behind the advice is critical for some of us, and also for
> discussing this intelligently with others.
*****
No, actually we don't. But we do have information for you and we do
know now to access information so that you can find the data you need
if you need it, and we do have a lovely membership that will share
raw feeding resources, recommendations and accumulated knowledge.

It is a major turn-off
> (and indeed cult-like) to be told that the facts don't matter.
*****
Who the heck wrote that?

> To some of us, that sounds like "...challenging the opposition with
> empty words."
*****
Then I would suggest some of you need to do your basic homework.
Understanding what "species appropriate" means and understanding how
it relates to dogs/wolves and does NOT relate to a grain-based
foodlike substance would most likely put an end to this entire
discussion. If it isn't species appropriate, it doesn't belong in
the dog's diet. If kibble species appropriate? No. Does it belong
in a dog's diet? No. How hard is that? How vague is that?

It is vague if you don't understand the premise. Read, research,
come to terms with the premise. Then see if the question even needs
to be addressed.

> It is legitimate to ask why it wouldn't be better to feed
parttially
> raw, rather than no raw.
*****
The charter of this list is to feed raw food to cats, dogs, and
ferrets. The purpose is not and never was to provide a forum for
debating various diets. Partial raw, regardless of how commendable
you believe it to be, is not raw and has never been a useul topic of
discussion. If you would feel more comfortable on a list that
endorses other feeding choices than raw, perhaps you should seek one
out.

And as I found out from my own research
> (after being blasted for even asking,
*****
Doing one's own research is an excellent way of getting the data one
needs. Many beginners forget they have splendid resources as near as
Google.com.

> Not everyone on this list has reached that point, at the time they
> join.
*****
First things first. Forget for the moment how to achieve a
compromise. First understand what comprises a good, healthy species
appropriate raw diet. Once you know these fundamentals, you will
have the tools with which to judge your options. I think you'll find
that feeding kibble with raw really is not an appropriate alternative.

People who want to make a good raw diet happen will.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (25)
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1b. Why not to feed raw with kibble
Posted by: "darkstardog" darkstardog@charter.net darkstardog
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:04 pm ((PDT))

++++Mod note: please sign all emails. +++++++++++

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Ivette Casiano <ivettecasiano@...>
wrote:
>
> Now we have the problem of dry spots on the lawn from his urine.
> Does anyone have an answer to why the urine spots on the lawn used
to >be green and healthy when he was on k***le but now that he's on
raw >it's killing the grass?
> Is it the urea in his urine from the raw? Was he urinating lots of
>stuff he wasn't using anyway while eating kibble that was feeding the
>lawn?

Higher protein in the new diet would mean more urea production. Urea
is a nitrogen source. I think some is good for the grass but too much
is unhealthy.

It makes sense that it's the change in diet.
But also you could check to see if there's some other thing
contributing, like the weather in the late summer that might make the
lawn drier depending on where you live.

Messages in this topic (25)
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1c. Re: Why not to feed raw with kibble
Posted by: "chaparraltrail" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:28 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>
> The charter of this list is to feed raw food to cats, dogs, and
> ferrets. The purpose is not and never was to provide a forum for
> debating various diets. Partial raw, regardless of how
commendable
> you believe it to be, is not raw and has never been a useul topic
of
> discussion.
*****

There was never any debate about diets, just a question about
whether there were specific risks with a mixed diet, worse than
straight kibble. The answers that were eventually given confirmed
that there is no scientific consensus, even among raw feeders. There
was never any discussion about whether or not it was good to feed a
mixed diet. The premise of the question was that raw feeding is
species appropriate. But on this list and other places on the web,
one finds occasional references about how bad it is to mix the two,
and she asked why that was.

Nobody debated, or even implied, that any diet was better than raw.

> Once you know these fundamentals, you will
> have the tools with which to judge your options. I think you'll
find
> that feeding kibble with raw really is not an appropriate
alternative.
*****

SHEESH! WHO SAID IT WAS?!?

> Read, research,
> come to terms with the premise. Then see if the question even
needs
> to be addressed.
*****

I read and research extensively. I have learned the fundamentals
(it's not rocket science...)and am having no problems feeding my dog
raw. I did not ask the initial question; I have seen that such
questions are open to wild misinterpretation here. But if it is a
question on the mind of someone who is just starting to feed raw,
then YES, it does need to be addressed...at least IMHO.

Knowledge, research, and common sense supports raw feeding. It's OK
to ask questions, because we are not afraid of truthful answers, are
we?

Lori

Messages in this topic (25)
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2a. Re: Frothy vomit
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:26 pm ((PDT))

Hey Sandy, it's just a little bit of broth. Sounds totally healthy, no???

Who cares if it contains ingredients that have laxative effects, affect
calcium metabolism, etc? No big deal...totally normal. Just nice chicken
broth, right???????

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "cmhausrath" <cmhausrath@yahoo.com>

Bill, it's just lovely for you that you can dismiss "enhanced" meat
so lightly, but it really is a problem for my dog. Feed enhanced
meat, deal with extremely loose, difficult-to-control stools.
Reliably.

Messages in this topic (5)
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2b. Re: Frothy vomit
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:11 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cmhausrath" <cmhausrath@...>
wrote:
>
> Bill, it's just lovely for you that you can dismiss
> "enhanced" meat
> so lightly, but it really is a problem for my dog.

I didn't say it's impossible, I just say it's highly
improbable. "Ehnancement" is nothing more that broth or saline
solution.

Broth is:
1. thin soup of concentrated meat or fish stock.
2. water that has been boiled with meat, fish, vegetables, or
barley.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) Based on the Random
House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

1. The water in which meat, fish, or vegetables have been boiled;
stock.
2. A thin, clear soup based on stock, to which rice, barley, meat,
or vegetables may be added.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English
Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

Hardly the poison a person might believe by reading many posts on
here. It's water that has had meat/bones boiled in. Period. No
big deal.

Saline solution is the stuff the vet would inject into your dog if
he were dehydrated. It's the same stuff that the hospital would
inject in you if you have lost a lot of blood or become dehydrated.
It's salt water for goodness sake. Animals MUST have salt or they
die. Excess salt is excreeted.

Tens of millions of people eat enhanced meats daily. If it doesn't
hurt them it doesn't hurt dogs. Does that mean that an occasional
person of dog MAY have a problem with it. Of course in indivual MAY
have a problem but they are rare.

I buy all the meat for the humans and dogs in our family. I never
pay attention nor do I care if it's enhanced. It makes absolutely
no difference to me as does it to 99% of the people in the world.

> As for the package, at some stores it ISN'T marked, and
> other times
> it's just incredibly difficult to find.

I THINK but not 100% positive that law requires it to be marked as
enhanced. I honestly don't know how difficult it is to find the
information on the package because I never look.

> I personally also hate
> the taste of enhanced meats, so they're a total no-go in my house.

I buy some pretty expensive meat cuts for the humans in the family
but I can't tell the difference. I don't know if they are enhanced
or not. I just know its not the problem it's touted to be on here.

It's practically impossible for someone to make a post about a dog's
digestive problem without an answering post being quickly made about
enhanced meat. Believe me, for 99% of people & dogs it's not a big
deal. There are many causes for digestive upset that are MUCH more
likely to be the culprit than enhanced meat.

Many people have been eating enhanced meats for years with no
problems until they learn that the meat is enhanced then suddenly it
magically becomes the cause of every ache and pain and digestive
upset they have. :)

Bellsouth old Email Server - May have to go back to it -
mail.atl.bellsouth.net

http://personalpages.bellsouth.net/c/a/carnes/dogtraining/index.htm

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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3a. Re: New to Raw
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:35 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/26/2007 8:23:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
megan.giselle@gmail.com writes:

If you must supplement, you can add Salmon or Fish Body oil, either in
caps or liquid. Make sure it doesn't have any plant based oils, like
soy, in there. You probably don't need much. Follow the
recommendations that come with the product you buy.
_http://timberwolforganics.com/pet-omega-oils_

(http://timberwolforganics.com/pet-omega-oils)

***another great source of pure salmon oil is Iceland Pure..

here is the info you need to order.

URL: _http://www.icelandpure.com/frequent_buyer/oils.htm_

(http://www.icelandpure.com/frequent_buyer/oils.htm)

User name: frequent
password: buyer

they are currently having a sale on 3 17oz. pump bottles of pure salmon oil
for $30.

just FYI
Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (25)
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3b. Re: New to Raw
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:53 pm ((PDT))

Thanks, Catherine!
I couldn't get there from your link, used this one;
http://www.icelandpure.com/salmon_oil.htm
TC
G

> ***another great source of pure salmon oil is Iceland Pure..
>
> here is the info you need to order.
>
> URL: _http://www.icelandpure.com/frequent_buyer/oils.htm_

> (http://www.icelandpure.com/frequent_buyer/oils.htm)
>
> User name: frequent
> password: buyer
>
> they are currently having a sale on 3 17oz. pump bottles of pure
salmon oil
> for $30.
>
> just FYI
> Catherine R.

Messages in this topic (25)
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4a. Re: Puppies and variety of meats
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:58 pm ((PDT))

"ptmagi" <ptmagi@...> wrote:
>
> Is
> this true or did I dream it?
*****
I believe it's true and perhaps even easy if the human has a good
enough grip on the care and feeding of a raw diet. I doubt there are
facts to back this up, and don't know how comfortable you feel with
empirical evidence. Can't imagine there's any other sort of support
data.

I think it's probably rash for a beginning raw feeder to start right
away with significant protein variety. Not because of the age of the
dog but because newcomers tend to over do things--if there's something
to be over done, a newcomer is likely to find it.

I feed protein variety to all dogs, pups or othersie, quite soon after
they arrive, but I do it by adding bits and snitches of new meats to a
meal previously identified as "successful". Since feeding a pupster
typically requires three or four daily meals, the human gets a lot of
feedback really quickly. And with three or four meals, there is plenty
of opportunity to offer variety in very small doses.

I will add a pinch of beef heart to a chicken meal. Or a small amount
of chicken to a venison meal (depends on where you start). Or add some
green tripe to half a quail. Or feed pork meat with a chicken neck
And I will do so knowing full well I may have to retreat, regroup and
start afresh.

Hardly ever have had to though.

And if it's true, up to what age is this
> considered safe?
*****
What's not to be safe? If you mean what is not likely to cause loose
stools, I'd say amount is more likely than variety to do it. And I
don't think there's ever an age beyond which judicious variety is not
appropriate. The state of readiness of the human is, IMO, the
essential factor in deciding whether to stick to the straight and
narrow for the first few weeks...or cut more quickly to the chase.

Since there's no crime at all in going slowly, when in doubt go slowly.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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4b. Puppies and variety of meats
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:04 pm ((PDT))

>>I think I read that it's okay to offer a variety of meats to puppies
from the git-go rather than starting off with one protein for a week
or two, then adding another for the next couple of weeks, etc.<<,

Well, Deb, I can't answer all your questions, but I'll give some a shot. FWIW, however, anything that "works" is okay; it's kinda a "know-your-dog" situation. But, I weaned my Corgi puppies (now 4 mos. old) on raw, and while I stuck with chicken for a week or two, I started introducing "other" proteins right after that (about 7 wks.) By nine weeks, they had had chicken, turkey, fish, pork, beef heart, venison, elk, eggs. They had no issues with any of those.

>> And if it's true, up to what age is this considered safe? Or does it apply only to pups who go straight to raw after weaning?<<

This is the part I can't answer. . . obviously, since my pups didn' go to raw "after weaning" -- that's how they were weaned.

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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5a. Re: Panting and lethargy
Posted by: "ptmagi" ptmagi@gmail.com ptmagi
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:04 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Swanson" <laurie@...> wrote:
I can't
> remember the size/age of your dog--is that a lot of food for a meal for
> him?

He's an almost four-month old Boxer. His dad is 80 pounds, so I was
planning to feed him 2-3% of that, or 1.6 to 2.4 pounds a day, and the
two chicken quarters he had only added up to 1.6. Should I be
breaking this down into four meals instead of three? (Man, that's
going to take some orchestrating, if so!)

I took your advice and didn't feed him again. I was hoping it was
just a case of having too much to eat, but he's still showing the same
behavior and its now eight hours since his last meal I haven't come
up with any answers yet in the archives, but will keep looking and if
he's still acting like this in the morning I guess we'll be taking a
trip to the vet.

Thanks for your reply, Laurie

Deb in CO

Messages in this topic (5)
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5b. Re: Panting and lethargy
Posted by: "ptmagi" ptmagi@gmail.com ptmagi
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:04 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "tottime47" <tottime@...> wrote:
>
> Deb,
>
> Have you got some Slippery Elm Bark? If not run down to the store and
> get some and give him a capsul

Oh, geez, I am an IDIOT! I read this post, immediately got on the
phone to see if Vitamin Cottage was still open. Nope. Called Whole
Foods and they were open but only carry the Slippery Elm Bark in
capsule form, not powder. I've read so many posts about Slippery Elm
POWDER that I didn't even notice you said "capsule" in your post and
thought that wouldn't be appropriate and now Whole Foods is closed!

0
me> --- <-------WHACK!
|
/ \

I'm going to run to Walgreens now on the off-chance that they carry it.

Thanks, Carol

Deb in CO

Messages in this topic (5)
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6a. Re: shiba new to raw with watery diarrhea and vomiting
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:05 pm ((PDT))

>>>>Yeah, all natural like nicotine, arsenic, and wormwood! What part of
"poison" do you fail to understand? Or do you really think Novartis
is in business to make your pet healthy? Pardon me, but someone is
surely pulling the wool over YOUR eyes. If the worst you can imagine
is our being upset with you, well, there ya go. A little flea poison
is like letting your kid play in traffic a little. Don't do this
anymore, OK? You need to pay attention to other suggestions for flea
control made here and on Rawchat, please.<<<<

Ginny, you know for one thing I'm doing the best I can with the RAW diet,
I've gotten a lot of encouragement from this group, and I'm trying really
hard to go all natural with these dogs. But inless I can get this Dia what
ever it is Earth all natural flea control at Walmart then I'm gonna have to
go with what is available to me. And Capstar was, I had to provide some
kind of relief to my dogs. They were scratching non-stop - Frontline isn't
good I know and it's too expensive - so I did what I HAD TO DO- sorry it
wasn't to your liking!! As far as getting further knowledge on all natural
flea product from the Rawchat I just joined today.

Thanks for the encouragement...
Brandi

Messages in this topic (14)
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6b. Re: shiba new to raw with watery diarrhea and vomiting
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:25 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Brandi!
We all get upset and think we have to 'do something' right
away when our dogs are having problems, even if it turns out later to
not be the best thing we could have done.
Why not just order the diatomaceous earth online?
Food grade is best.
http://www.dirtworks.net/Diatomaceous-Earth.html
http://www.ghorganics.com/DiatomaceousEarth.html
http://www.internet-grocer.net/diatome.htm
http://www.amazon.com/GreenSense-Diatomaceous-Earth-10-lb/dp/B00025H2PY
TC
Giselle

> >>>>Yeah, all natural like nicotine, arsenic, and wormwood!
<snip>
I had to provide some
> kind of relief to my dogs. They were scratching non-stop -
Frontline isn't
> good I know and it's too expensive - so I did what I HAD TO DO- sorry it
> wasn't to your liking!! As far as getting further knowledge on all
natural
> flea product from the Rawchat I just joined today.
>
> Thanks for the encouragement...
> Brandi
>

Messages in this topic (14)
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6c. Re: shiba new to raw with watery diarrhea and vomiting
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:17 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/26/2007 9:25:45 PM Pacific Standard Time,
megan.giselle@gmail.com writes:

Why not just order the diatomaceous earth online?
Food grade is best.
http://www.dirtworks.net/Diatomaceous-Earth.html
http://www.ghorganics.com/DiatomaceousEarth.html
http://www.internet-grocer.net/diatome.htm
_http://www.amazon.com/GreenSense-Diatomaceous-Earth-10-lb/dp/B00025H2PY_

(http://www.amazon.com/GreenSense-Diatomaceous-Earth-10-lb/dp/B00025H2PY)

****one more...

_http://wolfcreekranch1.tripod.com/defaq.html_

(http://wolfcreekranch1.tripod.com/defaq.html)

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (14)
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6d. Re: shiba new to raw with watery diarrhea and vomiting
Posted by: "deep_ocean_of_sorrow" deep_ocean_of_sorrow@yahoo.com deep_ocean_of_sorrow
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:29 am ((PDT))

wow, you've definately helped me a lot! (And i've been using the raw
diet on my dog for about 2 months now. )
thank you!
Kate
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@...> wrote:

>
> 1) Ditch the kibble - plenty of discussion on this list over the past
> few days about why kibble and raw don't mix; just let it suffice that
> your dog can reap the benefits of raw faster and more completely if
> you donate the kibble to your local shelter asap. A species
>> > Brandi
> > Bartlesville, Ok
>

Messages in this topic (14)
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7a. Re: apple cider vinegar & digestive enzymes
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:06 pm ((PDT))

Ivette Casiano <ivettecasiano@...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone have any info on adding apple cider vinegar to a dog's
raw diet?
> I know that keeps their ph down, but don't know how much nor how
often it should be added.
*****
I think you should simply let Nugget get on with his life. The runs
are invariably caused by too much food or too much fat or too much
new. Instead of trying to fix Nugget (who isn't broken), I recommend
you back off, reduce amounts, feed smaller meals more frequently. When
he restabilizes, carry on.

Nugget is fully capable of digesting his food without you messing with
his water supply. If you cannot adjust his diet appropriately and you
have try a different approach, buy a good protein/fat digestive
enzyme. Vinegar is not the answer.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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7b. Re: apple cider vinegar & digestive enzymes
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:15 pm ((PDT))

Ivette,

Their pH is perfect without the addition of apple cider vinegar. Just feed
an appropriate diet and let his system adjust. No need for digestive
enzymes...he has all he requires.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Ivette Casiano" <ivettecasiano@yahoo.com>

> Does anyone have any info on adding apple cider vinegar to a dog's raw
diet?
> I know that keeps their ph down, but don't know how much nor how often
it should be added.
> Nugget is a 90lb Lab doing well on raw for 3 weeks now. He's eaten
chicken, beef hearts, pork and lamb. Oh, and a little liver, not too often
because that's what gave him the runs last time I tried. Anyway, does the
vinegar help their digestion? I give him digestive enzymes already. Another
question. Is there a time when I can stop giving him digestive enzymes?

Messages in this topic (5)
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8.1. Re: newbie
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:24 pm ((PDT))

Hi Delinda,

I feed my Danes in the house most of the time. They quickly learned to eat
on the blanket or towel I provided. If they try to drag it off, just pick
it up, put it back in the spot you want them to eat...it will take no time!
:)

Bones should be consumable...if not, get rid of them as they will wear and
break teeth. What kind of bones are you feeding that aren't edible?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Delinda" <dharmon@homenetnw.net>

I have just started rawfeeding my male english mastiff and my female
boxer. While the weather has been nice, I have been able to feed
them outside, but now the bees are very active and they are swarming
the meat. I'd like some input from all of you, if you don't mind, on
how you feed them in the house. I don't have a garage to utilize for
this. My boxer wants to drag hers onto the carpeting and we are at
odds over it. Also, my back yard looks like a bone yard by the weeks
end. My meat is coming from a packing plant, it is human grade
meat,beef and lamb, so good quality, but there are a lot of bones
included. I also buy whole chicken for them and use giblets and
chicken feet for treats. How long can these be left in the yard
without becoming harmful? I have been putting them in trash if not
eaten within a couple of hours.

Messages in this topic (47)
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9.1. Re: Questions
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:28 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, LittleGoldWoman <stacy1967@...>
wrote:
>
> Where the heck do you get raw food?

The obvious starting place is grocery store. I buy some stuff in
bulk from a small independent grocery. The large chains usually are
not able to make special bulk orders for you.

> Isnt it more expensive to be buying raw meat?

If you just go buy out of the meat counter, yes. It will take you a
few months to learn how to shop for your dog's new diet. Get a
freezer so you can buy in bulk. Find a small independent grocery
store and talk to the meat manager. Don't call, go in person.
Check with meat wholesalers, ask restaurants where they get their
meats. Check with nearby farmers. Go to ethnic markets. The list
of possible sources is almost endless. :)

> How often do you need to feed them?

I feed twice a day. Some feed once a day and some even feed every
other day. Its your choice.

> I read something about 2% of body weight but im not real sure
> what that means.

It means feed 2% of your dogs EXPECTED IDEAL ADULT weight. If you
expect your dog to be 150lbs idealy, then 3lbs a day would be a
starting point. It is only a starting point. Keep an eye on his
build. If he gets too chubby feed less, too thin, feed more. A
Dane puppy should have the last rib or two showing and no hip bone
or spine showing.

> He weighs 69lbs right now and is gaining 3-6 lbs a week.

Doesn't matter how much he's growing. It matters what his ideal
adult weight will be when fully grown. I have 2 Danes and I got one
at 12weeks old. I fed him the same amount as my adult Dane. Soon I
was feeding him more.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (61)
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9.2. Re: Questions
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:01 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Stacey!
Welcome to the raw side!

Check your local yellow pages or phone book directory for holistic
vets; call each one and screen carefully before making an appointment.

Heston may have a reaction to fleas or other parasites, such as mites.
He may also be hypothyroid. When the vet does blood work, make sure he
does a full panel thyroid test and sends it to Dr Jean Dodds for
diagnosis and an evaluative report:
http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/ThyroidDisease.htm

You may want to print the following out and refer to it. : )
My recommendations:

1. You want to start with 2-3% of your dog's ESTIMATED IDEAL ADULT
weight. Tweak with more meat if your dog gets a bit skinny, a bit less
if your dog gets 'fluffy' over the space of a few weeks. You might
start out by weighing your dog, and weighing her meals; but most peeps
don't continue once they get more comfortable and casual about feeding
raw.

2. Ditch the kibble â€" there’s been plenty of discussion on this list
about why kibble and raw don't mix; just let it suffice that your dog
can reap the benefits of raw faster and more completely if you donate
the kibble to your local shelter asap. A species appropriate raw whole
prey model diet doesn't include kibble.

3. Feed at least 2 meals a day to start with. ( three meals for a pup
under 6 months old ) Feeding once a day (or even less often) can be a
great feeding plan for a dog, but not at first; too much new food at a
meal can cause digestive upset. Feed as large a portion as you can for
the size of the meal. No little pieces or cut up, ‘bite sized’ chucks.
Dogs need to tear into their food and shear hunks off to swallow and
crunch bone for physical, mental and dental health. They don’t chew or
eat the way we do, their digestion begins in their stomachs, not in
their mouths. So swallowing big hunks of meat and bone is fine. If it
fits, its OK. If it isn’t happy in the stomach, the dog will hork it
up, and re eat it, so it will go down and stay down the 2nd or 3rd
time. All good, that’s the way dogs are.

4. Feed a little less at each meal at first than you think you should.
Too much new food over the course of a day or two can cause digestive
upset, too.

5. Stay with one new protein for at least a week, maybe two. You want
the dog to be showing you he is well adjusted to the new protein
before adding in new stuff. Take it slow; add only one new protein
every week or two.

6. You can switch to a new protein by just serving it at the next
meal, and all the meals after that for a week or so, or you can add a
bite or two of the new protein in with the 'old' protein, gradually
adding more new and less 'old' over several days, until you are
feeding all new and no 'old'. Whatever works for your own dog.

7. Boneless meals tend to produce loose, even runny poops. A judicious
amount of bone in a newbie dog's meal will tend to firm things up.
There will be less poop overall; raw is much more digestible and less
goes to waste. Poops will be less frequent also, for the same reason.
Bone adds bulk, so sloppy poops can be firmed up by some (don't go
overboard!) bone at each meal at first.

8. Chicken is recommended as the first protein to be introduced for
several reasons: its cheap, easy to obtain, easy to cut into different
dog meal sized portions, you can trim visible fat and skin if you need
to tweak, most dogs will eat it and its pretty bland. Read the labels
on the chicken before you buy; don't get any that say its enhanced
with flavoring/seasonings or salt injected. Some dogs get itchy or
vomit or get true diarrhea from enhancements. Whole chickens are the
best to start with, ime. Cut into portion sizes with kitchen shears,
as needed.

9. Some newbie dogs vomit or poop bone bits. There is an adjustment
period, so you want some bone in most meals at first, but too much
bone may not be digested and the dog will just hork it up or poop it
out. NPs, its just the dog's way of saying "Too much right now, thanks."

10. Some dogs will get the Bile Vomits or Bone Bile Vomits (BV or BBV)
when new to raw simply because their schedules or routines of eating
have been changed. When a dog adjusts to raw, his gastric 'juices'
become much more acid, to better digest the raw meat and bone. If he's
expecting a meal at a certain time, the 'juices start flowing' in
anticipation of getting a meal. When the meal doesn't happen, the dog
often will hork up the yellowish, foamyish bile, with or without
bones. Sometimes they hork up BBV because raw digests faster than
kibble, the tummy is empty, so it must be time to eat. NP for the dog,
he''s gotten rid of the irritation. He may react as if he feels bad,
just because you are upset that he did it on your new comforter, or on
the white carpet.

11. A lot of dogs don't drink as much water or as frequently when
switched to all raw, all the time. Raw has a pretty high water content
and most dogs are forced by dry as dust kibble to over drink water to
compensate in order for their bodies to process it. If only fed raw,
you don't need to coax your dog to drink more water or even broth,
just offer plenty of fresh water, he'll drink when he needs it.

12. True diarrhea is not just loose, runny or sloppy poops. It is
frequent, liquid or watery explosions of poo that a dog cannot 'hold
back'. True diarrhea, imo, is caused by disease, parasites or
inappropriate food or non food items. The occasional loose poops, even
over a few days, from feeding a few too many boneless meals or
introing a new protein or feeding too much organ at one whack, is not
diarrhea.

13. The general rule of thumb for feeding raw is: 80% meat (muscle,
fat, skin, connective tissue) 10% EDIBLE bone (not all bone that is
served must be consumed) and 10% organs (5% of this is liver, the rest
is as much variety as you can find and afford) This is not an
immutable 'daily requirement'. Balance Over Time, over weeks and
months is one of the raw feeding mottos. ; ) If you feed true whole
prey, that is; entire animals at a time, then the meat to bone to
organ ratios are 'perfect' for that creature. Whatever parts your dog
can eat of is right for him. In the wild, wolves will eat off a large
animal carcass for days, and each wolf gets different parts. If times
are hard, they will consume the entire critter, including skin, fur,
less 'choice' parts and will even crack the hard long bones to get to
the marrow. If pickin's are plentiful, they will eat the easiest and
choice parts, and then move on. Because of variances in size, age,
personality, life experiences and dental ability, a particular dog
will be able to consume, or not: all or part or some or a little bone
from any particular animal. If you feed 'Frankenprey', that is; a
variety of protein, body parts and organs from different animals, to
simulate the whole prey experience for your dogs, you are challenged
to find enough variety in all these aspects for optimal health.

14. Organs - don't try to add a lot of organs or organ variety at
first. An easy way to satisfy the human need to "Do it all, right
now!", is to toss the gizzards and heart you get with your whole
chickens in with a bonier meal, a little piece at a meal. Heart and
gizzards are organs, but should be fed as meatymeat. The liver can be
cut up into teensy bits, and fed a tiny bit at a time with a meal.
This will allow you to feed organs, but shouldn't cause runny stools.
If it does, cut it out and freeze those parts for later down the line.
My list of organs, so I don't forget to look for variety; liver, heart
(fed as meat), cheek meat, head meat, salivary glands, feet, lips,
oxtail, spleen, tongue (usually fed as meat), weasand meat
(esophagus), tripe, stomach, sweetbread (thymus & pancreas), ears,
kidneys, brain, tripe, poultry giblets - heart, liver, gizzard and
snouts. Heads, with all the ‘stuff’, including eyes.
"offal" - viscera and trimmings of a butchered animal often
considered inedible by
humans.

15. SEBP - Slippery Elm Bark Powder. This is a good innocuous herb
that soothes the stomach and digestive system. If you feel you need to
intervene when your dog has loose poops or constipation, this is the
way to go. SEBP is "used to treat diarrhea, constipation, enteritis,
colitis & irritations of the stomach. Used to soothe, protect &
lubricate mucous membranes. Also, used to relieve the discomforts of
kennel cough & other types of bronchitis."
http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm
I use 1 tsp of SEBP to one ounce of ground or chopped chicken. Mix
together and shape enough meatballs for several days doses, and freeze
them. They thaw quickly. For small dogs, divide in 1/2 ounce
meatballs, for large to giant dogs, 1 ounce meatballs. Feed 1 with
each meal. Or, fast for a day, (not for pups, fast for just a meal or
two) offer plenty of water. Feed SEBP meatballs 3-4 times throughout
the day. Feed smaller, more frequent meals for several days after,
gradually increasing the meals and decreasing the SEBP meatballs. You
will often see an increase in mucousy poops with SEBP, this is part of
the way it soothes the digestive system, and the dog's body will do
the same sometimes even without SEBP.

16. You can feed pretty much any animal or animal part that your dog
will eat and that won't break the bank. : ) Common grocery store
variety suffices for some; chicken, turkey, pork, beef, lamb, fish,
rabbit. Others can obtain at a reasonable price and feed; goat,
venison, emu, ostrich, bison, beefalo, elk, mutton, mice, rats, guinea
hen, quail, bear (bear? ;) ), the list goes on and on.

17. If you must supplement, you can add Salmon or Fish Body oil,
either in caps or liquid. Make sure it doesn't have any plant based
oils, like soy, in there. You probably don't need much. Follow the
recommendations that come with the product you buy:
http://timberwolforganics.com/pet-omega-oils

http://www.icelandpure.com/salmon_oil.htm

In the case of true
disease, you may need certain supps, but this is the exception to the
rule, most dogs don’t.

18. Lis' List; ways to creatively source cheaper variety in protein,
parts and organs. FreeCycle and craigslist are great ways to find a
free or cheap freezer to hold all the scores you'll be making!
> Where do you look for meat suppliers?

Permission to repost from Lis

A) Look up meat and poultry packers, processors, and distributors in
the yellow pages. You may be able to get great prices from them if
you order in bulk, and/or they may have a discount outlet that is
open to the public.
B) I get many of my best deals in Asian/Oriental markets. I've also
heard that Hispanic and Caribbean markets have great variety and
prices too.
C) You may be able to join a barter group.
D) Google breeders (i.e. rabbit, goat, lamb, etc.) who are in your
geographic area. They may have culls they want to get rid of, or
lower prices overall.
E) Look up bulk suppliers and frozen bulk foods in your yellow pages.
F) If you have a Chinatown nearby, definitely make a visit.
G) Let your friends, relatives, and neighbors know you want any
freezer burn or old meat when they clean out their freezers, and tell
them to pass the word along.
H)If you belong to a church or social group, tell those members to
mention it to their friends and relatives as well.
I) See if there are any co-ops or meat buying groups near you. Check
on Yahoo, or Google to see.
J) Try craigslist - it's amazing what you can get for free or cheap.
K) And I get meat and fish all the time (for free) through
FreeCycle. Join multiple lists if there are a few close by.
L) Some Wal-marts and some Costcos and some Sam’s Clubs have good
deals, but you may want to make sure it's not seasoned meat.
M) Definitely watch the flyers, and you can usually see the rest
of the flyers online (the ones that don't get delivered to your house,
but are only a short drive away).
N) *** Hands down, the bulk of my best deals have been marked down
meat at regular grocery stores. They reduce it the day before it is
going to expire, and I go as early as I can to get it before it is
gone.
O) Tell friends and relatives who hunt and fish that you want first
dibs on any body parts they don't. You can probably get at least the
organs and maybe the head. Also ask them to put you in touch with
their other friends who hunt and fish.
P) A great tip I learned here a while back â€" some restaurants
throw out things they don't use, like the organs that come inside
whole poultry, or raw meat that falls on the floor. See if they'll
save them for you. Find somebody who knows somebody who works there.
Q) Farmer's markets are great, but pick and choose carefully for the
best bargains. And sometimes at the end of the day some vendors will
reduce their prices, ‘cause they don't want to take it back with them.
R) Some people contact taxidermists, who have no use for the meat.
S) Find people on this list from your vicinity, and ask them where
they get their meat deals. Join other raw feeding lists (there are
many), and ask if there are other raw feeders in your area.
T) Tell your butcher you want the meat that they would normally
throw out, that is almost out of date, that people ordered and didn't
pick up, stuff that was dropped on the floor, their freezer
cleanouts, and parts that don't sell (like trachea, lungs, spleen,
etc.). Some butchers will save their trim for you (once they get to
know you). Build a relationship with them first.
U) Yes, roadkill works too (where it is legal). In some places you
can get your name on the list and get called when they have large
roadkill. (like deer)
V) You can raise your own meat/poultry if you have the room.
W) Post a message in Carnivore Feed-Supplier or CFS-Canada if you are
in North America:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CFS-Canada/
X) Speak to local farmers.
Y) Also, look for heart, tongue, and gizzards, which count as meat (as
opposed to organ) in the world of raw feeding, but are often cheaper
than other muscle meats.
Z) Find somebody who knows somebody who works at the grocery store.
They can introduce you to the meat guy, who may become more willing
to save stuff for you or reduce items about to expire, once they know
you.
AA) Check the internet. Some suppliers have affordable prices, even
after shipping costs are calculated.

Lis

It really isn't that hard to raw feed your dog. There's a learning
curve, definitely. But, that's what this list is here for.
Read as many daily posts as you can, read the files on the website,
and follow those links! Search in the archives for past posts with
keywords; new to raw, newbie, help, how do I start or other words that
reflect your specific search.
TC, and let us know how you and your dog progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

<snip>
> Hi I'm new. I have a 4.5 m old Great Dane puppy.
> I'm just now hearing of raw and i have questions.
> I was wondering if someone can answer them or maybe point me in the
> directions of the answers.
>
> Where the heck do you get raw food?
> Isn't it more expensive to be buying raw meat?
<snip>
> Are there holistic vets around?
>
> I haven't owned a dog in 10 years so I'm having to relearn
everything. Any
> help out there?
>
> Stacy
> and Heston

Messages in this topic (61)
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________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: Need support on raw feeding
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:28 am ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/27/2007 12:24:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
"vickies_28" writes:

now that we got another dog, they say I will kill this one with the raw diet
as I did kill the first one.

*____
Try getting them to read what's REALLY in pet food, here:

_http://nexusmagazine.com/articles/petfood1.html_

(http://nexusmagazine.com/articles/petfood1.html)

Lynda

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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11a. blanket statement
Posted by: "blue eyed" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:32 am ((PDT))

cooked food takes longer to pass through the dogs system than raw and this can cause problems in some dogs.
natalie

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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12a. Re: Feeding Big .... and Hornets Too!
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:03 am ((PDT))

Thanks!
It never occured to me that knowing what to eat would have some context
base to it! It makes sense, I just didn't see it before! I just assumed
they'd see and smell it and voila - feeding frenzy! I'm right there
with ya in the School of the Flat Forehead - Class of 2007!!

I'll check out those traps. Thanks!

Christine

Giselle wrote:
>
>
> Hi, Christine!
> Just like some dogs don't 'get' at first that a chicken
> leg or breast is 'real' food after a lifetime of kibble, feeding Big
> for the first time can also puzzle dogs. Dogs look at context and
> smells and outlines for recognition, the 'whole picture', if you will.
> So, changes in what they have come to recognize as 'the norm' can
> throw them, even if we think that 'its natural' that they should take
> to eating raw or eating Big Food right away.
>.....

Messages in this topic (3)
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13. First Raw Feeding
Posted by: "Penelope Quillen" copperquillpen@hotmail.com copperquillpen1958
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:35 am ((PDT))

I would like some advice. I have a cat. What should be her first raw
feeding? Fish, with or without bones, or chicken. I know she likes livers,
both beef & chicken. Her skin seems alittle dry around her tail area. She
drinks plenty of water. She got a raw piece of salmon, I dropped it while
fixing my dinner, she ate it right up. When I dropped another small piece,
she ate that also. But when I actually cut some up & put it in her dish,
she sniffed of it, & backed away. So I don't know if she was full or she wasn't sure. Advice, Please. Penelope Q.

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Messages in this topic (1)
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