[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11923

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Garlic and Dogs
From: mgitaville
1b. Re: Garlic and Dogs
From: Yasuko herron
1c. Re: Garlic and Dogs
From: ginny wilken
1d. ADMIN/Re: Garlic and Dogs
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: Pork liver question
From: Yasuko herron
2b. Re: Pork liver question
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: Once a day feeding and Frequent urination...anyone seen this???
From: jankopple
3b. Re: Once a day feeding and Frequent urination...anyone seen this???
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: Distributors
From: cmhausrath
4b. Re: Distributors
From: Pamela Picard

5. not gaining weight
From: MustBLuvSpaniels@aol.com

6a. Re: Nature's Variety Raw Food Diets
From: cmhausrath
6b. Re: Nature's Variety Raw Food Diets
From: ginny wilken
6c. Re: Nature's Variety Raw Food Diets
From: costrowski75

7a. Re: bloat
From: Linda Gower

8. 2-3% feeding amounts
From: redwinejoy

9a. chicken questions
From: morkydzgrl
9b. Re: chicken questions
From: Giselle

10a. meaning of RMB's
From: Ivette Casiano
10b. Re: meaning of RMB's
From: Giselle

11a. Re: What do you think
From: costrowski75
11b. Re: What do you think
From: costrowski75

12a. Re: raw & puppy development
From: ginny wilken

13.1. Re: new to raw feeding
From: Mick

14a. Re: pork neck bones
From: delcaste

Messages
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1a. Re: Garlic and Dogs
Posted by: "mgitaville" mgitaville@hotmail.com mgitaville
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:56 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:

> I know that Ginny has told me drop all I am doing including garlic
for flea. so,I may stop feeding garlic and see how she does without it.
>
> yassy
>

******Why did Ginny (if you read this Ginny please feel free to drop
in) tell you to drop the garlic for fleas as well? I feed it
throughout the summer - usually 1-2 cloves/week if I remember for
bullmastiff - to help with mosquitos. Does it work? Well, I can't be
sure but in the swampy summer weather here I figure it is worth the try.

Marguerita

Messages in this topic (11)
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1b. Re: Garlic and Dogs
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:20 pm ((PDT))

>Thanks for the warning, but there's quite a body of evidence that indicates raw garlic fed >moderately may offer some health benefits and may as well be an effective flea deterrent

Hi,I forgot to add something to this topic so,allow me to post 2 times to this topic.

Garlic has been used for thousands of years for medical purpose;I read that its use start from 5000 years ago,out of the years,about 3000 years,chinese medecine used it.

Egyptian,Romen etc used garlic as healing properties.

I read,garlic is nice antibacterial properties.It promotes the white cell production so,it is good immune booster for dog especially with low immunity or with diabete by helping reduce blood sugar level.

What makes good about garlic is that, "Allicin" appeared to be active component in the root bulb(cloves) of garlic plant which trigger healing properties,and it is formed when allicin,sulfur containing amino acid comes contact with Enzyme allinase when raw garlic is chopped,crushed or chewed.

However, Garlic contains "thiosulphate",and if dog eat too much raw garlic,it cause hemolytic anemia.

If dog eats 50 cloves of garlic in one sitting, it is harmful,I read.

If anemia happens,you will see sympton ; vomiting,diarhhea,weakness,depression,lossof appetite in a few hours or few days.

That is why,I be careful not to give too much of Garlic and still get benefit from it.2 in 7 days a week may not enough to get benefit but still, my dog liked it and I was/am feeding garlic.

For human,garlic is great to reduce the risk of cardiac disease/cancer as well as improving blood pressure regulation,improving immune function,better digestion,prevent infection.

So, I tend to use in my cooking often not as much as too much though.

Yassy

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (11)
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1c. Re: Garlic and Dogs
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:27 pm ((PDT))

On Aug 17, 2007, at 1:37 PM, mgitaville wrote:

>
> ******Why did Ginny (if you read this Ginny please feel free to drop
> in) tell you to drop the garlic for fleas as well? I feed it
> throughout the summer - usually 1-2 cloves/week if I remember for
> bullmastiff - to help with mosquitos. Does it work? Well, I can't be
> sure but in the swampy summer weather here I figure it is worth the
> try.
>
> Marguerita

Yassy was doing many things at once to combat fleas, after having
seen one small flea, I believe, on her dog. I was simply suggesting
that Palette may be healthier than she thinks, and that she could
test that by dropping all of the adjuncts and saving some effort and
money.

No matter what we do, there is no REASON for fleas other than
impaired health. To me, it's more important to understand that, fix
it and not just to constantly fight off signs of it, especially if
you're fighting them off with something so far out of the realm of
prototypically appropriate as garlic.

Nothing against garlic, you understand. It's one of the food groups,
as far as I'm concerned:)

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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Messages in this topic (11)
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1d. ADMIN/Re: Garlic and Dogs
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:46 pm ((PDT))

Um, this topic has gone off into the weeds. Please take the discussion
to RawChat. Thanks.
Chris O
Mod Team

Messages in this topic (11)
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2a. Re: Pork liver question
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:57 pm ((PDT))

>Is pork liver as rich as beef liver?

Hi.I have heard that pork liver istorelated by dog better,but I don't feed big chunk. I stick to 5% liver,5% kidney the rule I set for myself.

If your dog can torelate better,then,maybe you can feed bigger but dog needs meat more than organ in quantity.

For Heart,you can feed as boneless meat;meaning..not organ category,so,you can feed big if yourdog can torelate big big chunk.

yassy

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (4)
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2b. Re: Pork liver question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:12 pm ((PDT))

"joanngongos" <jogongos@...> wrote:
>
my question is: Is
> pork liver as rich as beef liver? How much of it can I feed at a
time?
> It doesn't look as rich and so I thought maybe I could feed larger
> quantities.
*****
I can feed more pork liver at one time than I can beef liver but I
would not recommend feeding it freely until your dogs have had a chance
to get used to it. Pork hearts I feed whole to my retrievers, no
problem.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Re: Once a day feeding and Frequent urination...anyone seen this???
Posted by: "jankopple" JKopple@dpka.com jankopple
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:19 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Shannon Parker <mrbatisse@...> wrote:
>

> Has anyone seen this in their dogs??? Do you think I should switch
back to twice a day feedings??? I'm considering it just to ease
her...we all know how uncomfortable it is to hold a full bladder, not
to mention the risk of bladder infections.
>
> My 5 yr old lab is on 1 meal a day and does have a long pee. He can
hold his pee all night but he does stand along time once we are out in
the morning. He also has long pees at most other times during the day,
meaning that he rarely pees what I would consider a normal amount. The
long pees started when I started feeding raw 4 months ago. It doesn't
seem to be related to one or two meals a day. I assumed it was the
added water in the raw food. He also drinks quite a bit. I remark this
tendency but so far I am not overly worried. Should I be?
Jan Kopple
jkopple@dpka.com>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email
the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Once a day feeding and Frequent urination...anyone seen this???
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:03 pm ((PDT))

Shannon Parker <mrbatisse@...> wrote:
This has only started with the once a day feeds....normally, she can
hold her bladder just fine from 10 pm until I walk her
> at 7.
>
> Has anyone seen this in their dogs??? Do you think I should
switch back to twice a day feedings??? I'm considering it just to
ease her...we all know how uncomfortable it is to hold a full
bladder, not to mention the risk of bladder infections.
*****
I have not seen this behavior as a result of feeding once a day (or
less). Not during the day, not over night. OTOH, my dogs rarely
have to hold it more than six hours during the day, and last walkies
are typically at 11 pm, with first walkies around dawn.

Have you monitored her drinking? Has it increased? Do you take her
out to pee after mealtime but before bed? Maybe you've unknowingly
reduced her potty visits as you've reduced meals. Did your switch
coincide with a heat wave? Anything else going on in her life?
That's what I'd be looking into, 'twere me.

You might want to switch back to twice a day to see if the issue
continues. Clearly, if it does feeding frequency is not the cause.

Please let us know what you find out.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: Distributors
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:19 pm ((PDT))

"costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:

> No need to clean out grocery stores. You can buy large quantities
(and
> the larger the quantity, the greater your negotiating space) from
> wholesalers and restaurant suppliers.

And if you need a quickie source, until relationships and pricing
structures with other suppliers are worked out, you can always call the
grocery store and ask them for case prices. I've found my local
grocers very easy to work with in terms of special orders and mega-
purchases. I'm sure my mega-purchases aren't what yours will be, but
this should still work in the short term.

You may even find that it works in the longer term -- I've found very
reasonable deals through local stores.

-- sandy & griffin

Messages in this topic (7)
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4b. Re: Distributors
Posted by: "Pamela Picard" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:39 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Dawn Teuscher" <dteuscher@...> wrote:
> I have VERY large dogs and was hoping to buy in quantities as opposed to
> clearing out the grocery stores of whole chickens.
>
>
***

Google for "dallas raw feeders" or "dallas raw feeding." There may be
a buying co-op like we have in Austin and San Antonio. I found 'em on
the Internet.

Also identify any meat markets; you may be able to buy scraps as well
as neogitate a discount for bulk orders.

I buy a lot of meat from Slankers, in Waco. It is shipped overnight.

And Hare Today also ships.

Pamela Picard
www.pet-wellness-update.com

***Sign the petition***
Exempt Sick & Senior Pets from Rabies Shots
http://www.petitiononline.com/tdsh2007/petition.html

Discuss rabies laws & reform with other pet owners
Join aimees_law-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Messages in this topic (7)
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5. not gaining weight
Posted by: "MustBLuvSpaniels@aol.com" MustBLuvSpaniels@aol.com mustbluvspaniels
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:23 pm ((PDT))

My puppy is a great eater and we are feeding him 2lbs a day, But he is not
gaining weight. Am I feeding enough? he weights 36lbs. But needs to gain I can
feel his spine. Lisa

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

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Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. Re: Nature's Variety Raw Food Diets
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:25 pm ((PDT))

"Tracy" <tracy.ramey@...> wrote:

> Perhaps you might thank the animal for providing adequate food for
your
> dogs. Chris O
>
>
> Would you accept my gratitude if you were the animal being slaughtered
> for food? [:-/]

Eventually, if you wait long enough, we're all food for something else.

Please, if a suggestion doesn't work for you, disregard it. No need to
start a completely OT conversation with a remark that I, at least,
found pretty inflammatory.

-- sandy (who was a vegetarian for 12 years, and never will be again) &
griffin (never a vegetarian, and now a certified carnivore, thank you)

Messages in this topic (12)
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6b. Re: Nature's Variety Raw Food Diets
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:15 pm ((PDT))

On Aug 17, 2007, at 12:41 PM, Tracy wrote:

> Would you accept my gratitude if you were the animal being slaughtered
> for food? [:-/]
> Tracy

I like to think that the animals, unspoiled by prideful notion of
their own importance in the scheme of things, can accept and
peacefully transition to the next plane of existence, no matter when
and why that transition occurs. Their morality is not ours, they
judge us not, nor any of their predators.

That said, my sense of my own place - which is, after all, morality -
allows me, nay, forces me, to accept their offerings, to acknowledge
that my own demise will be an offering as well, and to make these
transitions as peaceful and meaningful as I can.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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Messages in this topic (12)
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6c. Re: Nature's Variety Raw Food Diets
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:17 pm ((PDT))

"Tracy" <tracy.ramey@...> wrote:
> Would you accept my gratitude if you were the animal being slaughtered
> for food? [:-/]
*****
What a bizarre question. Why would you--a vegan I assume--be
slaughtering me for food?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
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7a. Re: bloat
Posted by: "Linda Gower" pudeltime@bellsouth.net pudeltime
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:28 pm ((PDT))

Thank you all for your answers. I naively asked prior to scanning the archives. Spent my lunch looking at all that came up. Believe me, I'm not naive about bloat and its mechanics. I'm a vet tech and have been for 25+ years now. So, I've seen the aftermath of it a lot and read all the new things that come out about it -i.e. the Purdue study. Of course, none of the studies are going to mention raw feeding, so I thought I'd draw on the experience of this list - I've been impressed with the depth of knowledge I've seen and just wanted to tap into it, not stir anything up.

I can see some of you have come to this diet for just this reason. My Standard is a worrier and I can see him stressing himself into a bloat. So, as I'm learning and being able to do more, I'm changing what I can. Diet is one of those things and the original barf diet I tried included veggies, which was not working. Didn't know about the species appropriate diet at that point. He's seven and knock on wood, so far so good. Both parents are still kicking at advanced ages. But SP's are getting more and more prevalent for bloat and the unknown scares the heck out of me!

Thanks for your patience.

Linda G

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8. 2-3% feeding amounts
Posted by: "redwinejoy" redwine1@windstream.net redwinejoy
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:37 pm ((PDT))

OK, I have been so happy to see my Sheltie eat that I think I have been feeding too much. My
Sheltie (oversized 18" and 35 lbs.) should be getting 3/4 to 1 lb. if I figured correctly. I was
feeding a breast/wing or a leg/thigh morning and night. I have been doing this for 4 days. I
think I should cut back to 1/2 of that. I think I waS feeding more like 2 lbs. each day total.
He has been dribbling urine randomly and I am wondering if he might have too much
pressure on his bladder from being really full in his intestine. He has been pooping but not
quite normal yet. Joy R.

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9a. chicken questions
Posted by: "morkydzgrl" ShankMa4@aol.com morkydzgrl
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:29 pm ((PDT))

I have a chicken with the neck attached.

Should I take the neck off? Are chicken necks off limits?

Can I feed a leg alone, meaning ... not attchached to the thigh?

The chicken came with heart, liver, and another organ (what would that
other organ be?). Would I give my dog these organs during the week
that I feed this whole chicken?

Is it okay to cut the breast/wing area in half? I ask this because the
whole breast and wing are a bit too big for one meal for my 30 lb. dog.

This chicken has a lot of skin around the backside area ... you know
how there is extra skin and the legs get tucked into the skin ...
should I cut off that extra skin before feeding?

Can I give chicken for 2 weeks before trying another meat? Or is two
weeks too long?

Thank you.
Cindi

Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: chicken questions
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:51 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Cindi!
Feeding necks attached to the whole bird is EXACTLY the way
they should be fed! Feeding a neck alone is not recommended, as they
are easily gulped down, and can cause choking in even small dogs.

You could cut the chicken in quarters and just let your dog eat half a
portion - trade the other half for a yummy treat and put it away in
the fridge until the next meal. Or you can cut the whole chicken into
smaller parts to feed.

That would be the gizzard. You can add the heart or gizzard in with
the bony drumstick meals, they are organs, but fed as muscle meat. The
liver you can freeze for later, or add a eensy, teensy bit to each meal.

You can trim visible fat and excess skin off for now, to minimize
possible loose stools in the beginning. Or, you can just feed what's
there, and adjust later, if you need to.

Sure, its recommended that you start slowly with one protein source
and then add another each week or so after the dog is doing well on
each new protein. Later on, after there are several proteins that he
tolerates well, you can feed multiple proteins in a week, or in a day,
or at each meal, if you want to and your dog tolerates it.

Keep us posted on your progress!
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I have a chicken with the neck attached.
>
> Should I take the neck off? Are chicken necks off limits?
>
> Can I feed a leg alone, meaning ... not attached to the thigh?
>
> The chicken came with heart, liver, and another organ (what would that
> other organ be?). Would I give my dog these organs during the week
> that I feed this whole chicken?
>
> Is it okay to cut the breast/wing area in half? I ask this because the
> whole breast and wing are a bit too big for one meal for my 30 lb. dog.
>
> This chicken has a lot of skin around the backside area ... you know
> how there is extra skin and the legs get tucked into the skin ...
> should I cut off that extra skin before feeding?
>
> Can I give chicken for 2 weeks before trying another meat? Or is two
> weeks too long?
>
> Thank you.
> Cindi
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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10a. meaning of RMB's
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:31 pm ((PDT))

<<...I always try to clarify the meaning, especially if I don't know the
feeding history of the newbie requesting information...>>

Oh, ok, I won't use it any longer. I never used the B**F type of feeding. That's what I was first introduced to by my sister but I didn't think it was good. I couldn't believe that it was good to feed mostly bones. Just didn't sit well with me. So I held off and I'm glad I did because raw feeding 80%-10%-10% really sounds right to me and Nugget is doing so well.

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

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10b. Re: meaning of RMB's
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:13 pm ((PDT))

That's the ticket!!!! : )

I always feel like I'm writing a 'book' when answering even one
question. I want to give clear, easily understood information. I don't
want to offer too much information, but I don't want to skimp so that
there's a misunderstanding, either.

There's a balance to offering just the right amount of information and
support and I don't always know where it is.

*sigh, that balance is different for each person, I suspect.

TC
Giselle

> <<...I always try to clarify the meaning, especially if I don't know the
> feeding history of the newbie requesting information...>>
>
> Oh, ok, I won't use it any longer. I never used the B**F type of
feeding. That's what I was first introduced to by my sister but I
didn't think it was good. I couldn't believe that it was good to feed
mostly bones. Just didn't sit well with me. So I held off and I'm glad
I did because raw feeding 80%-10%-10% really sounds right to me and
Nugget is doing so well.
>
>
>
> Ivette Casiano
> "Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

Messages in this topic (2)
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11a. Re: What do you think
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:48 pm ((PDT))

"emdeefa" <mdevlin@...> wrote:
>
> Is it possible you meant the book called "Pet Food Nation" (ISBN:
> 0061455008)?
>
> i saw it on barnes and nobles website today:
> http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?
z=y&EAN=9780061455001&itm=1
*****
Well, that makes a LOT more sense! Thanks.
I read the publisher's blurb; sounds like another blahblah book that
recommends recipes back-engineered to the AAFCO standards based on the
recommendations of Nutrient Requirement of Dogs.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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11b. Re: What do you think
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:09 pm ((PDT))

"gevan1a" <gevans@...> wrote:
> Basically, some nut job chopping a load of veggies and a small cooked
> boneless, skiness chicken breast, saute it all in coconut oil and
> you've got pet food - or a chicken ceaser salad - I forget which.
*****
How cool!
When the dog refuses to eat such nonsense, the person can. No waste,
no fuss.

No way.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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12a. Re: raw & puppy development
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:07 pm ((PDT))

On Aug 17, 2007, at 11:23 AM, Tina Berry wrote:

> "Would you believe that undescended testicles are linked to vaccine
> damage?"
>

> . There are also homeopathic remedies (Ginny, do
> you know) for making them descend on their own prior to 6 months of
> age.

There are constitutional treatments that can make them descend later
than that as well. The remedy is the one that addresses the entire
case, the entire animal, just as always. There is chronic disease
causing this malfunction, and the animal must return to health before
it can be rectified. But this can be done quite quickly with
insightful prescribing.

Speak to your practitioner, and if they can't address it, find another.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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13.1. Re: new to raw feeding
Posted by: "Mick" cowsinsin@yahoo.com cowsinsin
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:40 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE REMEMBER TO TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

I live in Oshkosh,Wisconsin and have 3 dogs, 2 Rottweilers 105lbs and a Doberman 98lbs.

merril Woolf <merril@kentfieldwhippets.com> wrote: --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Mick <cowsinsin@...> wrote:
>
> I would like to start feeding my dogs raw food. Can anyone give me a list of foods to
use?
>
>

Personally, I use the following:

Chicken in any shape or form. (backs, whole fryers, giblets - whatver)
pork in any form
eggs raw
beef in any form
emu bits and pieces
ostrich bits and pieces
organ meat blend or buy individual organ meats and feed together or separate
cow tripe with lots of green still in it
whole goat or bits and pieces
lamp and goat heads
fish from the seafood supermarket - whole and unprocessed

You don't say where you are located so I can't point you at any one place to purchase
meat.
I buy from a distributor and he saves all manner of odd stuff I'll not mention in my list
since it's before breakfast and it could cause stomach upset for the reader.

Give us more info and we'll give you more ideas.

Merril

---------------------------------
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

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14a. Re: pork neck bones
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:41 pm ((PDT))

But if you are worried, you can take a big file from the garage and
file the
> bone down some, or take the bone out, and feed it as a meat meal.

Hi Jeni, this is a dumb question but I bought pork necks for the pugs.
They were meaty and fairly large but when I got home I noticed how
SHARP the bones were. I don't think I'll be buying them anymore. My
questions is: can I get a hammer and crush the bones (especiall where
it's pointy) so the pugs can eat the necks or should I feed the necks
to the pittie pup (I don't think he's 40 pds yet, I have to weigh him)
along with some pork meat and a little organ? Chino, does great with
his food, bones/meat/organs/eggs/fish?.

Silvina

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