[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11922

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: What do you think
From: costrowski75
1b. Re: What do you think
From: emdeefa
1c. Re: What do you think
From: gevan1a

2a. Newbie Oxtail Questions
From: morkydzgrl
2b. Re: Newbie Oxtail Questions
From: Yasuko herron

3.1. Re: new to raw feeding
From: merril Woolf
3.2. Re: new to raw feeding
From: Linda H. Gower
3.3. Re: new to raw feeding
From: merril Woolf

4a. Re: Distributors
From: Dawn Teuscher
4b. Re: Distributors
From: costrowski75
4c. Re: Distributors
From: Dawn Teuscher

5a. Re: raw & puppy development
From: ginny wilken
5b. Re: raw & puppy development
From: Tina Berry

6a. Re: First Meal
From: Yasuko herron
6b. Re: First Meal
From: Denise and David Spotila

7a. Re: New development: Food aggression
From: Giselle

8. Once a day feeding and Frequent urination...anyone seen this???
From: Shannon Parker

9a. Re: Garlic and Dogs
From: Yasuko herron

10a. Re: Lamb and Goat
From: Yasuko herron

11a. Bones bones
From: blechatlb@aol.com

12a. Re: bloat
From: Dawn Ruhl

13a. Pork liver question
From: joanngongos
13b. Re: Pork liver question
From: mgitaville

14a. Re: Nature's Variety Raw Food Diets
From: Tracy

15. Losing Weight
From: blechatlb@aol.com

Messages
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1a. Re: What do you think
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:55 am ((PDT))

"Taj" <bpskarma@...> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> There is a book out called Dog Food Nation I believe and I just
wanted to know if anyone has read this book and if so is it any good?
*****
I have found no Albert Shnowser and no "Dog Food Nation" except as a
single entry on one page in one blog and I don't consider that a
credible source. Offhand, I think it is one man's ramblings.

If you know this author and this book actually exist, please provide
more information.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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1b. Re: What do you think
Posted by: "emdeefa" mdevlin@aisle10.net emdeefa
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:13 am ((PDT))

Is it possible you meant the book called "Pet Food Nation" (ISBN:
0061455008)?

i saw it on barnes and nobles website today:
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780061455001&itm=1

Looks like it was published last month.

- Mike

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "Taj" <bpskarma@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> > There is a book out called Dog Food Nation I believe and I just
> wanted to know if anyone has read this book and if so is it any good?
> *****
> I have found no Albert Shnowser and no "Dog Food Nation" except as a
> single entry on one page in one blog and I don't consider that a
> credible source. Offhand, I think it is one man's ramblings.
>
> If you know this author and this book actually exist, please provide
> more information.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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1c. Re: What do you think
Posted by: "gevan1a" gevans@sycomtech.com gevan1a
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:10 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "emdeefa" <mdevlin@...> wrote:
>
> Is it possible you meant the book called "Pet Food Nation" (ISBN:
> 0061455008)?
>

They talked about this book on Entertainment Tonight yesterday -
Basically, some nut job chopping a load of veggies and a small cooked
boneless, skiness chicken breast, saute it all in coconut oil and
you've got pet food - or a chicken ceaser salad - I forget which.

-George

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Newbie Oxtail Questions
Posted by: "morkydzgrl" ShankMa4@aol.com morkydzgrl
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:59 am ((PDT))

I have bought a frozen Oxtail. It weighs about 2 lbs. My dog weighs
30 lbs.

What do I do with the Oxtail ... meaning, how do I feed it to him? Is
it a meal as a chicken quarter would be a meal?

Thanks, Cindi

Messages in this topic (2)
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2b. Re: Newbie Oxtail Questions
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:58 am ((PDT))

>I have bought a frozen Oxtail. It weighs about 2 lbs.

Hi,Cindi. When I bought whole ox tail,it weiged around 4 lb.What you got are for soup and it is like 1 inch chunks in plastic pack?? Or half tail ?

My dog and your dog are about same weight,but,if it were small chunks of tail,don't feed it.The dog may swallow it whole chunck without any crunch.

What I have in freezer,some part is mostly bones (I think that part is end of tail) and some part is (near the butt I guess) looking meaty as much as short beef rib if you imagine.

I have to pull out and see and judge myself but, if the tail had about half pound of meat on it(her daily intake is 9 oz ,bit more than half pound),I say,meal,if not,I add more meat to the tail and make it to meal.If she crunch down bone quite good,chancesare,I will take bone away for later entertainment.

I think for big dog like Rottie,I see it as recreational because there is no way that it has enough meat they need to eat a day.

yassy

PS;I am planning to use either cow hooves (by the way,it was so huge! weigh 5lb and hooves are as big as my palm!)or tail on her BD meal/recreational(hooves ,recreational for sure) so,the tail is still sleeping in the freezer.

---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

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Messages in this topic (2)
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3.1. Re: new to raw feeding
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:01 am ((PDT))

>
> What kind of distributor is this? As in - what would I look under in the Yellow Pages? There
are several meat companies around, but not sure as to whether they're the best to deal with
or if there's something better.
>
> Linda G
>

I found mine on the Carnivore feed supplier list. However, he is more local for me but you'll
find a good number of suppliers who advertise on the carnivore list. Lots of folks who can
also tell you where they purchase in your area.

What state are you in?

Merril

Messages in this topic (50)
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3.2. Re: new to raw feeding
Posted by: "Linda H. Gower" pudeltime@bellsouth.net pudeltime
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:04 pm ((PDT))

I'm in the Nashville TN area.

Linda G

> I found mine on the Carnivore feed supplier list. However, he is more local for me but you'll
> find a good number of suppliers who advertise on the carnivore list. Lots of folks who can
> also tell you where they purchase in your area.
>
> What state are you in?
>
> Merril
>
>
>

Linda H. Gower
Mid TN
Lance (SP) AX, AXJ, Delta Pet Partner
Chase, (MP) OA, AXJ
In memory of Cocoa (who started it all)'70-'89
Duncan, UD, NA, NAJ, TDI great little buddy '89-'04
Bonzai, CDX, MX, MXJ, Delta Pet Partner - best partner I could dream for '97-'04
RUN FOR FUN!!!!

Messages in this topic (50)
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3.3. Re: new to raw feeding
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:53 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Linda H. Gower <pudeltime@...> wrote:
>
> I'm in the Nashville TN area.
>
> Linda G

Join the carnivore feed supplier on yahoo groups and ask if there are any suppliers in your
area. If the supplier themselves aren't on the list, folks who live near you could offer you
contacts that they use for their meat needs.

Merril

Messages in this topic (50)
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4a. Re: Distributors
Posted by: "Dawn Teuscher" dteuscher@tx.rr.com dawn_rescue
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:02 am ((PDT))

Generally speaking, Dallas has a ton of grocery stores,
supermarkets,
Restaurant suppliers, meat wholesalers, ethnic markets and even
hugely
Expensive upscale dogfood boutiques. These ought to be enough to
start


I have VERY large dogs and was hoping to buy in quantities as opposed to
clearing out the grocery stores of whole chickens.




Dawn T

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Messages in this topic (5)
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4b. Re: Distributors
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:12 am ((PDT))

"Dawn Teuscher" <dteuscher@...> wrote:
>> I have VERY large dogs and was hoping to buy in quantities as
opposed to
> clearing out the grocery stores of whole chickens.
*****
No need to clean out grocery stores. You can buy large quantities (and
the larger the quantity, the greater your negotiating space) from
wholesalers and restaurant suppliers.

But probably your best bet is the Carnivore-Supplier List, a sister
list also on Yahoo. If you include "Dallas" in the subject line and
you are specific about the meats you seek, you will get specific
responses.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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4c. Re: Distributors
Posted by: "Dawn Teuscher" dteuscher@tx.rr.com dawn_rescue
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:06 pm ((PDT))

Probably your best bet is the Carnivore-Supplier List, a sister
List also on Yahoo. If you include "Dallas" in the subject line
and

Thank You!!!

Dawn T

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Messages in this topic (5)
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5a. Re: raw & puppy development
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:08 am ((PDT))

On Aug 16, 2007, at 11:41 PM, rottinluvr wrote:

> No problem with that here. My 13 week old Rotti's have both dropped.
>
> I really doubt this is diet related.
>
> Leanne and Casino

Would you believe that undescended testicles are linked to vaccine
damage?

Yup.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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Messages in this topic (8)
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5b. Re: raw & puppy development
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:04 pm ((PDT))

"Would you believe that undescended testicles are linked to vaccine damage?"

Absolutely!! I read studies on this and Steve Brown has it in his book as a
study.

I would contact the breeder definitely... and in gsds I have heard of the
right one descending later than the left and as late as 19 months but it is
very rare, the ring closes at 6 months for the testicle to pass through so I
would be taking the boy in for an ultrasound (after calling the breeder) to
see where the testicles are located... it may be no big deal and just
descending late, but I would be ultrasounding for them at 16 weeks to make
sure they are past the ring. There are also homeopathic remedies (Ginny, do
you know) for making them descend on their own prior to 6 months of age.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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Messages in this topic (8)
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6a. Re: First Meal
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:15 am ((PDT))

>Okay, tonight is the first raw feeding.

Hi,Patty.Kewl! That is the first big step you can make for your pooches. Glad to hear.

> I plan on feeding frozen chicken qtrs along with hearts & gizzards.

Good,but remember to defrost it before serving. Room temperature maybe good.
Sometimes,you need to entice your dog with good smell of food.

You can put the meat in zip bag and seal it and put the bag into warm water and bring the meat temp up to get it more smell for your dog may help.

And,since it is their first new food day,you may want to make it simple meal.

Sometimes,too much new food cause diarrhea/upset tummy.So,go steady and slow.

Generally,heart and gizzard are not something that gives dog diarhea or loose poo like liver but,since new food,you may want to hold off.I am not sure. I did not give them on the first week.

> I even have chicken feet for later in the week.
Well,my dog really really loves chicken feeet but feet only are not meal valued items.So,if you feed it as meal,maybe pair up with nice big boneless breast of chicken will be great.
You can feed it 1 as snack too if you choose.Or 2nd week or 3rd week from today, if you move up to Beef for example,you can feed nice hunk of roast with some chicken feet.

If you start with quaters, quaters have quite bone in it so,maybe not just giving quater whole week but try feeding chicken breast with rib later this week since rib bones are not as much bone in one breast compare to quaters.

But easiest way I have learnt here is buying the whole chicken and cut into portion of your dog,and give that portion each day and the dog gets to eat whole by the dog finish up the meat you got. Thatway,when dog eats some portion of birds,one portion get wing to eat,one portion has leg attached and they get to eat all parts of birds you can think of. that prevent swallowing whole as well.

other thing I can think of.. add 1 new thing one at a time so that you can find out what is causing problems.

Good luck!

Don't hover and sit back and relax and supervise your dogs eating.If you are relaxing,dog is more likely eat the meal relaxed mood.

And don't be surprised dog chew couple of times and swallows.That is how they eat:-P

yassy

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (8)
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6b. Re: First Meal
Posted by: "Denise and David Spotila" brookside_casa@yahoo.com brookside_casa
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:58 am ((PDT))

Chicken quarters are great but I would hold the gizzards and hearts for at least a week. Best to start slow with just quarters and breasts to avoid digestive upset. I am sure others will have input also! Go for it!

David and Denise Spotila

Brookside Casa
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Messages in this topic (8)
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7a. Re: New development: Food aggression
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:26 am ((PDT))

Hi, Anndrea!
Behavioral issues are OT for rawfeeding, but are OK in
rawchat - you might want to repost there.

Offering your dog plenty of tiny sized special treats
whenever she is stressed is a good thing to do. The treats will help
her focus on something that makes her feel happier and change the
'upset' feelings she has.

Even if you are feeding her tiny bits of treats nonstop, it can help.
you shouldn't ask her to 'do' anything for the treats, just feed them
to her, one right after the other, as long as she is in the stressful
situation.

If she won't take treats, or is nipping when she takes them, she is
waaay too stressed - physically lead her farther away from the
situation, until she can take treats and is taking them more gently.
Giving her her own special place to eat her meals, during a quiet
time, away from anything that she can see or hear that will stress her
is important. You can start tossing tiny bits of treats into her dish
or eating place from several feet away. Over time, say, a few days to
a week or two, as she shows that she is more comfortable, you can
gradually move a step or two closer. After awhile, you can stand next
to her and drop treats, or feed them to her while she eats. This will
help her be less worried about her food.

Why couldn't her 'papa' take her with him when he walked away to
smoke? That would probably lessen her stress in that situation.

There are a lot of things you can do to help your dog to cope with
this lifestyle change, temporary though it may be. I'd be glad to
pursue other things you can do, either in raw chat or you could email
me privately.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I know she has a lot of stress and I am sure she is worried she could
> lose anything at anytime right now.
>
> I took her to see her "papa" (my husband) and she was so excited.
> Every time he walked away to smoke, she would go nuts, like she was
> never going to see him again. She got pretty worked up when we had to
> eventually leave to come home. I don't know that I will take her to
> see him again...I am not sure it would be a benefit or a backslide on
> her attachment issues. Though she would be alone a lot if I don't take
> her since I spend a lot of time with hubby during the day and no one
> is home during the day.
>
> Such a dilemma...
>
> Anyway, I know that was totally OT but I had to say it to someone. Ya
> know?
>
> Thanks again for your well wishing and thoughts for us. I did do a
> search before I posted for aggression and it really didn't come up
> with much. Maybe I searched wrong or something :-)
>
> anndrea
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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8. Once a day feeding and Frequent urination...anyone seen this???
Posted by: "Shannon Parker" mrbatisse@yahoo.ca mrbatisse
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:59 am ((PDT))

Hi All,

I recently switched my 12 year old greyhound and 8 year old Dogo to once a day feedings...approx 1.5lb per day maintains their weight. I switched because 1. After reading through the archives, it seemed the natural way to feed. 2. It's soooo much easier than preparing 2 meals a day. Anyways, my question is this.... ever since the switch, my greyhound is producing HUGE amounts of urine. I usually take her out 3 hours past dinner (around 10pm) where she has a large pee, my hubby then takes her out around midnight, where she has a moderate pee and then by 7 am when I walk her, she's got to go so bad she tries the get the door open with her face! By the time we get outside she just let's loose where ever she is standing...grass, sidewalk or driveway! The Dogo seems fine btw...though he's so lazy that I think he'd hold it for 2 days if I let him. This has only started with the once a day feeds....normally, she can hold her bladder just fine from 10 pm until I walk her
at 7.

Has anyone seen this in their dogs??? Do you think I should switch back to twice a day feedings??? I'm considering it just to ease her...we all know how uncomfortable it is to hold a full bladder, not to mention the risk of bladder infections.

I welcome input and suggestions.

Thanks

Shannon

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Messages in this topic (1)
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9a. Re: Garlic and Dogs
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:02 am ((PDT))

> If Yassy is feeding 1/2 small clove every other day to her Corgi, I'd wager you would need >to scale back for your Yorkie.

Hi, What I use as base was 1/2 small cloves of garlic to 1 small cloves of garlic 20lb per body weight as daily maximum intake.

I don't feed garlic every other day. 2 days out of 7 days a week.

I be very careful about garlic and that little may not do anything noticeable but, if I wanted to,I can feed 1/2 clove of garlic everyday as maximum feeding for garlic.

For 7lb dog, half clove of garlic maybe too much. Like chris said,1/3 daily max if you want to feed daily.

I use my trusty Microplane grator and grate the clove. I don't mice with knife because grating isso much easier. You can get hte grator at Bed Bath Beyond about 15 dollars.It works great with citrus zesting,cheese grating,nutmeg grating as well.One of my Fav tool.

I know that Ginny has told me drop all I am doing including garlic for flea. so,I may stop feeding garlic and see how she does without it.

yassy

---------------------------------
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10a. Re: Lamb and Goat
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:05 am ((PDT))

> I had thought all lamb bones were okay, but I so rarely find it affordable that I couldn't >remember for sure that it was okay

Hi,Trish. I bought Lamb neck from shoppers.They are not trociously expensive.
You can add lamb boneless meat to it to make meal.

What I have fed..as lamb

Lamb Neck(add meat to it but my dog consumed all bone; corgi)
Lamb Rib (Added meat to it,my dog ate all without any problems)
@ I did not feed Lamb shank due I heard that bone sprinter very sharp even raw

Boneless Lamb
Lamb Tongue
Lamb heart

My dog had prob with Lamb (poo-wise) so,I ended up making combo meal whole time on lamb except Lamb heart meal,so,you may want to give small bits of lamb and see how your dog does..

yassy

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11a. Bones bones
Posted by: "blechatlb@aol.com" blechatlb@aol.com blechatlb
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:44 pm ((PDT))

Gaynor,

Your dog does need to consume bone, not just gnaw on bone...feeding meat only with a bit of chewing on the bones is not enough. I may have misunderstood your post? It appeared that?she is not actually eating any bone...is that correct?

TracyB

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Messages in this topic (3)
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12a. Re: bloat
Posted by: "Dawn Ruhl" Dawnofthedanes@mac.com dawnofthedanes
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:45 pm ((PDT))

There have been studies where they tried everything to make groups of
dogs
bloat, none of which were successful. Raised bowls, lowered bowls,
dry kibble,
wet kibble.... etc.
What I do know from experience and it being prevalent in
my breed is... STRESS is the biggest contributor. Diet is second. Vax
are
third due to soft tissue damage from the adjuvants.
What most people don't realize is that even activities that our dogs
love are stressful to their bodies. When stressed, digestive systems go
awry. My first CH came from a family of dogs who all bloated before
they were 2 years of age. To this day his breeder tacks everything, but
feeds commercial dog food. My boy, being the only one raw fed his entire
life, didn't bloat until he was almost 8... but, we had just moved, &
I had
just bred him to my bitch. Both stressors, Big Time!
Therefore I can say by my experience is that the raw diet does help.
Considerably. It can't prevent it altogether, but I believe it does
help.
~;*;~ Dawn ~;*;~
I prefer to live my life as if there is a God, and die to find out there
isn't, than live my life as if there isn't, and die to find out there
is.
http://www.dawnofthedanes.com

Linda H. Gower <pudeltime@...> wrote:
>
> My biggest fear with my Standard Poodle is bloat.
*****
I understand your concern: I worry about earthquakes an awful lot.
So what I do is learn what to do in case of, try not to live on an
active faultline, try not to dally on bridges, overpasses or in
tunnels, and kept abreast of research that may some day help us
predict with greater accuracy the next big one.

Bloat is not related to diet or it is. Bloat may or may not be
mitigated by raw food. It may or may not be related to meal size or
frequency. Bloat may or may not be exacerbated by grains. Feeding
dry kibble may or may not increase the chances. Drinking lots of
postprandial water may or may not cause bloat. Genetics might play a
role, vaccines may be the cause. Exercise before or after dining may
set it off. Raised dishes may reduce chances or increase them.
Depth of chest may be the determining factor. There is so little we
know--and so much that we speculate about--that it is almost
laughable to "know" that anything causes or prevents it.

It's my understanding that dry kibble may be a factor; likewise, that
raw food with its high water content may reduce chances. I think
genetics does play a role and that vaccines may increase the odds. I
think deep chests AS A BREED STANDARD are not necessarily implicated,
but rather chests DEEPER THAN THE BREED STANDARD may be.

Whether your particular poodles are more or less apt to bloat than
the average poodle, whether raw food does or does not affect bloat,
whether or not kibble does or does not increase the chances of bloat--
a species appropriate raw diet is the best thing to feed a dog, any
dog. Every dog. Always.

There are 19 posts in the archives directly related your subject
line, and I am sure there are dozens more with similar subject
lines. You might want to browse the old messages for more
information/discussion. Here's how to join Yahoogroups so you can
access the Rawfeeding message archives:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

Chris O

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Messages in this topic (22)
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13a. Pork liver question
Posted by: "joanngongos" jogongos@adelphia.net joanngongos
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:47 pm ((PDT))

I went to the slaughter house today, my usual contact who gives me beef
liver frozen in nice neat 2 lb pkgs. was not there. The man who was
said "How about some fresh pork liver, we just butchered today" I said
great. I now have a dozen pork livers and a dozen pork hearts.

I packaged them and they are in the freezer but my question is: Is
pork liver as rich as beef liver? How much of it can I feed at a time?
It doesn't look as rich and so I thought maybe I could feed larger
quantities.

thanks, JoAnn

Messages in this topic (2)
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13b. Re: Pork liver question
Posted by: "mgitaville" mgitaville@hotmail.com mgitaville
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:54 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "joanngongos" <jogongos@...> wrote:
Is
> pork liver as rich as beef liver? How much of it can I feed at a
time?
> It doesn't look as rich and so I thought maybe I could feed larger
> quantities.
>
> thanks, JoAnn
>

*****From personal experience with my dogs solely I give you the
answer that you are correct it is not as rich. I have one
bullmastiff that can be more sesitive to rich/meaty items without
enough bone (just ask me about the difference in stool between pork
shoulders and pork butts for info on this) but whereas I have to
watch how much beef liver I feed I find pork liver causes no problems.

Oh, and I find pork heart a nice change of pace for my boys from time
to time - they like the tongues too which I can get at our asian
market.

Marguerita

Messages in this topic (2)
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14a. Re: Nature's Variety Raw Food Diets
Posted by: "Tracy" tracy.ramey@sbcglobal.net veganmomma1
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:47 pm ((PDT))

Perhaps you might thank the animal for providing adequate food for your
dogs. Chris O

Would you accept my gratitude if you were the animal being slaughtered
for food? [:-/]
Tracy

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Messages in this topic (9)
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15. Losing Weight
Posted by: "blechatlb@aol.com" blechatlb@aol.com blechatlb
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:54 pm ((PDT))

Millie,

For one, I would be sure to add some variety (pork ribs, turkey legs, whole fish, goat, venison, beef). You are not removing the skin from the chicken, are you? Your dog definitely needs it for the added fat. Whole raw eggs?are good, too.

TracyB

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Messages in this topic (1)
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