[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11763

There are 10 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Starting raw w/Dachshunds
From: K Carolyn Ramamurti

2a. Re: Runny Poops ----- HELP
From: Giselle

3a. Re: won't eat bones
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: Sick puppy update
From: Giselle

5a. Re: Poop(less) problem?
From: Laurie Swanson
5b. Re: Poop(less) problem?
From: Anndrea

6a. whooohooooo!!!!!
From: cdhaik

7a. Re: Tuna
From: geraldinebutterfield
7b. Re: Tuna
From: costrowski75

8. Mix Meat
From: rbmc1231937

Messages
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1a. Re: Starting raw w/Dachshunds
Posted by: "K Carolyn Ramamurti" lilith23360@yahoo.com lilith23360
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 4:46 pm ((PDT))

I am raw feeding two mini-doxie puppies, now nine months old (but they came home at three months), and they have always eaten big hunks of meat (half turkeys, whole chickens and game hens, slabs of ribs, etc.). They LOVE it, and they look fantastic.

It IS really easy -- I just drop the meat on the kitchen floor, they eat, and when they are done, I pick it up and put it in the "fridge" until the next meal. They eat it until it's gone.

Carolyn in Seattle

Michael Moore <m-tak@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>I need advice and diet plan ideas for both a puppy and our adult dog. Also anyone who might have suggestions on daxi training- as they're not the easiest!<<

Catherine -- no Doxies here, but Corgis -- also long and low. A diet plan is actually quite easy (although most of us tend to complicate it much more than necessary!). For both the new puppy and your adult dog, buy a whole chicken, cut it into meal size portions and serve to the appropriate dog. Yes, it really is that easy.
Depending on the puppy's age, a meal might be quite small. For 10 wk. old Corgi pups, a chicken meal would be 1/2 of a split breast with quite a bit of meat (or a thigh, again w/ lots of meat). Their next meal would be smaller.
For my adult Corgis, a chicken meal might be either a leg or a thigh.
Once the dogs have adjusted to raw (1-2 weeks for many dogs), you can begin to add new/different proteins. You can certainly start with a meat other than chicken (pork, for example), but chicken is readily available and reasonably priced. Our Wal-Mart has whole chickens for .78/lb. every day.
Once you've added new protein, remember to add in organs, too (especially liver). Just a small amount (about the size of your thumbnail) to start with.
Feel free to ask specific questions -- folks on this list are terrific, and will gladly share their knowledge and experience!

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

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Messages in this topic (2)
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2a. Re: Runny Poops ----- HELP
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 5:27 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Peter!
Excellent advice here!
The other thing I would recommend that you do, in addition to cutting
back on the bony parts, adding more meatymeat meals and smaller, but
more frequent feedings, is to add Slippery Elm Bark Powder to their
diet for awhile.
You can get it a health food stores, either in capsules or loose. Or
here; http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm
Sometimes when the diarrhea thing gets going, and the gut and
intestines are irritated for more than a day or two, it takes a few
days of regular dosings with SEBP to interrupt the cycle, soothe the
gut and let it get back to normal.
I'd fast these youngsters for a meal or a day. Offer plenty of water.
Make up dosing balls with 8 tsp SEBP and 1 cup of ground or minced
chicken. Dose them with one ball each about 4 times a day on the fast
day. Meanwhile, I'd buy some whole chickens and cut them up into
quarters. The next day, I'd feed them each a SEBP ball, then a chicken
quarter. I'd feed the older pup 2 times a day. And the bigger pup 3
times a day.
The diarrhea should subside and the stools be more formed. Don't be
surprised if you see mucousy stools, this is the SEBP that coats and
soothes the intestines passing through. After several days, you should
be able to cut back on the doses to twice, then once, then none a day.
After you are seeing no diarrhea, I would start adding the hearts and
gizzards to their meals, and a tiny bit of (maybe frozen) liver, about
the size of your thumb nail.
When you've fed through several chickens, and reduced the dosing to
nothing, then introduce another single protein. Turkey, maybe. Whole
turkeys, cut up, with the gizzard, heart & bits of liver tossed in.
Then, pork hams or shoulder, with the skin on. Then, Beef, etc. By
introducing one protein at a time, you can then find it easier to
figure out what to do if something goes wrong. I.E. smaller meals, too
much new food, too much fat, too much bone, and so forth.
The whole prey model diet is mostly meat (muscle, fat, skin,
connective tissue, anything but organ and bone) about 80%. Bone is a
much smaller part of the diet, about 10%. Organ, 10%, with up to half
being liver. Variety of proteins, and body parts is important, but
introduce them slowly. Not every meal needs a bone, and just meatymeat
meals are OK. The stool produced from those meals can be soft, even
runny, but shouldn't be confused with frequent, uncontrollable, watery
diarrhea.
The only thing that stands out to me about them eating and playing
with sticks and stalks from the garden is that they need toys of their
own, and more playtime with humans. Throw tennis balls, frisbees, or a
Jolly Ball, get them a rope tied to a small tire to drag around. Young
pups need supervision, direction and plenty of interactions to
exercise them and keep them out of trouble.
In the interests of house training and raw feeding, and peace in the
home at all costs; I'd suggest you get up at least once in the night
to take the pups out to eliminate, after being *sure* they are empty
before bedtime. Your bedtime, not theirs. And, a trip outside to potty
as soon as your alarm goes off in the am. This will help them to not
soil indoors until the diarrhea is under control, and get them back
into the swing of where they should go, and when. And eliminate your
wife being mad because she has to clean up the mess. ; )
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hello, my name is Peter and my wife and I have two labradoodles. The
> older one is called Maggie and is 8 months. She is about 30 lbs. The
> younger one is Gypsy and she is 6 months old. She is much bigger than
> Maggie at 50 lbs.
> They have been on raw since we got them and their main diet is chicken
> carcasses and occasionally they get chicken thighs or pork button
> bones (mostly meat with a few small bones in). Sometimes I give them
> mixed organ meats but they are not too keen on this.
> I feed them once a day (noon) and Maggie eats about 12 ounces, while
> Gypsy eats about 24 ounces.
> This is about 2% of there estimated, ideal, adult body weight.
> They both really enjoy the raw food but most of the time their poops
> are quite runny.
> They have access to outside until about 11:00 pm.
> They sleep in the kitchen and recently one of them (we suspect Gypsy)
> has been pooping a lot on the floor and the blankets during the night.
> We can't blame her if she has loose stools but my wife is getting very
> upset and blames the raw food.
> It doesn't seem to matter what I have fed them, even with chicken
> carcasses that have a bigger percentage of bones than there should be.
> This is supposed to harden up their poops.
> The only thing that sticks out is that they play in the garden a lot
> and they bite branches and stalks off the flowers and fruit bushes and
> chew them up. Maybe these are some kind of laxative? They also eat
> lots of grass.
> Is it normal to have loose stools most of the time? Maybe I am feeding
> them too much.
> Can someone please advise as my wife is determined to go to kibble or
> get rid of the dogs.
>
> Thanks for any responses.
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Re: won't eat bones
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 5:28 pm ((PDT))

Linda Edgington <lindagail849@...> wrote:

> Both cat and dog will not eat anything with bones in it.
*****
With the cat, you may have to feed boneless with ground eggshell or a
calcium supp. Or feed canned with raw in it and gradually introduce
whole bone...it would not be good for the cat to go more than 24
hours without eating.

For Giz, if he is otherwise healthy (I can't recall, sorry), you can
try waiting him out. Since he was so easily trained to hand feeding,
he should be as easily trained to crunching bones but you cannot give
in him. If he has no health issues to consider, I recommend going
as far as smashed chicken breasts but no further. Give them to him,
if he doesn't eat take them away. And then do it again. And again.
No fussing, no begging or bribing or babying. Just be calm, be
sensible.

If he has health issues you must consider, then give him big whacks
of meat to slow his appropriate but socially distressing wolfing, or
cut his meat small enough to permit hoovering. He can go for some
time without bone; if you really can't stand not feeding him bone
right now, sprinkle ground eggshell onto his meat, mix it with some
cottage cheese or yogurt or salmon oil.

No more hand feeding!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: Sick puppy update
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 5:45 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Jill!
The stools you are seeing are a result of the meds she is on, and no
bone in her diet. Keep feeding the SEBP as long as she is on the
Amoxicillin & Reglan. Then taper off over a few days.
Gradually add bony chicken parts back into her diet while still giving
the SEBP. don't smash the bones to get her to eat more than she will
on her own. Feed Game hen for more edible, softer bones. Add in the
gizzard, heart and a bit (pinky fingernail sized) of liver to her
meals a little at a time.
Wait until she is off of the meds, and eating normally to reevaluate
her stools.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Lily the skinny(was 5lb) Chihuahua has her energy back, playful and
> affectionate. She is eating raw chicken (human grade free range bla bla
> bla). Her stools are dark and gooey without eating any liver. she is
> still on amoxicillin, Slippery Elm and reglan. Should I be worried
> about her stools. don't know for sure if it is blood. Like black tarry
> stools in humans means GI bleed.
> Jill
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: Poop(less) problem?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 6:47 pm ((PDT))

Hi Anndrea,

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Anndrea" <anndreae@...> wrote:
>
> > Go s-l-o-w!
>
> In switching over or in adding things?

***Usually it's best to go cold turkey to raw, but add variety and
organs in slowly.

> Well, like I said, at the moment it is ground organic beef. I don't
> have much that has bones in it, but am going to that a big pack of
> ribs for tomorrow so they get some bones. I am just worried about
them
> choking or swallowing whole bones. They are all gulpers (Chico is
the
> least of a gulper, Shelby is the fastest, with Holly in the
middle). I
> have a t-bone or two, and some venison but I don't think the venison
> has any bones, and I am not sure exactly what is in there as I got
> them from someone else, and they are marked like "Venison B.S." and
> other initials after the "Venison". They are not very big packages,
> though, maybe a pound each.

***Beef ribs (and other beef bones) can be good for a bit of a
workout and some dental hygiene, but probably aren't edible and can
be tooth-breakers for most dogs. They are also kind of fatty. I
feed them occasionally and remove the bones when they're cleaned
off. For edible bone, for now, you might do chicken or turkey.
Those are easy to find and usually digested/tolerated well. With
gulpers especially, you want to feed big. Like a half or whole
chicken. Feed the amount you want and put the remainder back in the
frig for later. Pork bones are good, too, but pork is fattier and
MAY be better added in later. Your choice. If you are wanting to
use up your beef and venison right now, then I'd alternate those with
bone-in chicken or turkey. If you are having issues in a bit, you
can always back off on the variety.

***You don't want to feed the t-bones. They are too sharp and
awkward and easily munched into odd-shaped, sharp, choking-sized
pieces. You want more natural, less-cut (or not at all) bones.

***The gulping might improve--my dog has gotten much better about
this!

***Ground beef can be fatty so that could be contributing to the one
dog's loose stool. But obviously each dog is reacting differently to
the change.

> Would the consistency of boneless meat matter? Like a steak as
opposed
> to ground hamburger? Or does it only matter between bones and no
bones?

***The ground beef could be fattier--it just depends on the
particular trim that was ground vs. the particular cut of
steak/roast. But if I give my dog more than a couple boneless meals,
his stool is usually pretty loose, sometimes really loose. So they
do need some bone.

---Laurie

Messages in this topic (16)
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5b. Re: Poop(less) problem?
Posted by: "Anndrea" anndreae@yahoo.com anndreae
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 8:04 pm ((PDT))

> Hindquarters have more than enough bone...remember the overall goal is
> around 10% edible bone. Hindquarters are probably closer to 25%,
backs are
> much higher.

So the chicken leg quarters are a go? YAY! I think they are selling
for .99/lb this week.

> .55/lb is pretty cheap. but you get what you pay for!! :) As
> bony as they are, you will have to add more meat!!

Oh I have PLENTY of meat in the freezer. A bunch of hamburger, and a
whole lot of different cuts of steaks, pork chops, etc. My problem was
just the whole bone thing. I don't already have any! LOL!

I thought .55/lb was cheap ;-)
It is a wholesale place, so it will come in huge boxes, but if backs
are a ton of bone, I will be good to go!

Thank you SO much Sandee for the info!

anndrea and her crew

Messages in this topic (16)
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6a. whooohooooo!!!!!
Posted by: "cdhaik" cdhaik@yahoo.com cdhaik
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:07 pm ((PDT))

I had been having some trouble with my 3 month old Aussie pup not
eating red meat or bone. Last night I decided bugger it and took him
out of his crate at dinner time, threw down and extra towel for him in
the kitchen where the other dogs, Amber and Angus eat. I gave Amber
her pork shoulder and Angus his pork ribs and Rain the top part of a
pork shoulder roast. Angus and Amber tucked in but Rain sat back on
his haunches totally bewildered and just watched the other two and
after a while he began tearing and chewing into his journey of eating
properly like a dog should. Tonight was the left over's from last
night and all went very well. Success is sweet although the gas is now
three fold and is not so sweet but it is great to have found a
solution.

Caren y Amber y Angus y Rain

Messages in this topic (12)
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7a. Re: Tuna
Posted by: "geraldinebutterfield" gbutterflied@comcast.net geraldinebutterfield
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 8:26 pm ((PDT))

The tuna I get, home caught if that's the way to describe it, is
usually 15-25lbs. The big commercial fishers usually go for bigger
fish (I don't want to go into the fishing details here). Because the
fish I get are smaller/younger, I believe their mercury level is
somewhat less, still there, but less. If you live anywhere that you
can get fresh tuna from local fishers that would be great. Although,
you may not want to share with your pooch after you've had it :-)
geraldine

>
> Chris, would freezing the raw tuna remove any of the danger of the
mercury
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: geraldinebutterfield

> My husband does a lot of fishing so I'm lucky to have all sorts of
> fish like tuna, halibut, to salmon...>
>

Messages in this topic (12)
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7b. Re: Tuna
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 11:03 pm ((PDT))

"geraldinebutterfield" <gbutterflied@...> wrote:
>
> The tuna I get, home caught if that's the way to describe it, is
> usually 15-25lbs. The big commercial fishers usually go for bigger
> fish (I don't want to go into the fishing details here). Because the
> fish I get are smaller/younger, I believe their mercury level is
> somewhat less, still there, but less.
*****
I agree.
The reason why tuna (and other big fish like King Mackerel and shark)
are considered risks is exactly that: larger/older. The best fish are
those that are small when adult and reach maturity quickly.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
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8. Mix Meat
Posted by: "rbmc1231937" rbmc1231937@yahoo.com rbmc1231937
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 3:51 am ((PDT))

Is it OK to mix Meat, like chicken and beef in one feeding, ore do I
feed only chicken , and then the nechst meal only beef and so on.??
Barb &Reily

Messages in this topic (1)
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