[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11744

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: are the chickens at risk???
From: Bearhair
1b. Re: are the chickens at risk???
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: Help Please: Stool Composition
From: costrowski75
2b. Re: Help Please: Stool Composition
From: Andrea

3a. Re: Support for criticism
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: Feeding a whole turkey to a small dog
From: Bearhair
4b. Re: Feeding a whole turkey to a small dog
From: sd.little

5a. Re: Beef Heart
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: Bloat in large dogs
From: costrowski75
6b. Re: Bloat in large dogs
From: cypressbunny
6c. Ok, no more talk about bloat, how about Mountain Oysters?
From: tottime47
6d. Re: Ok, no more talk about bloat, how about Mountain Oysters?
From: costrowski75
6e. Re: Ok, no more talk about bloat, how about Mountain Oysters?
From: Andrea
6f. .........Re: Ok, no more talk about bloat, how about Mountain Oyster
From: tottime47

7. New to this group - looking for local raw enthusiasts
From: emma_mcelfresh

8a. Re: Chicken & Parts is Parts
From: Andrea

9a. Re: Trouble with my Mom's Schnauzer
From: Andrea

10a. New mom problem
From: Debra Morrow
10b. Re: New mom problem
From: Giselle

11a. Re: Very sick puppy
From: chamelett2003

12. Diarrhea in Newbie Great Dane.
From: Katie Baker

13a. day 1, this is going to be a looong haul
From: Linda Edgington
13b. Re: day 1, this is going to be a looong haul
From: llamacharm@frontier.net
13c. Re: day 1, this is going to be a looong haul
From: llamacharm@frontier.net

14. Advice re: softest bones?
From: Sam

Messages
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1a. Re: are the chickens at risk???
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:22 am ((PDT))

Michelle LaFay wrote:

> . . . We do have to be careful feeding the dogs while the chickens are
>out because....the chickens have been known to take the food from the dogs.
>My border collie gets all discombobulated if the chickens get anywhere near
>her while she's eating, she hunkers down and doesn't know whether to try to
>bolt the food (something she never does), run with it or just plain run (the
>first time she did just say screw the food and ran for her life, leaving the
>two hens to fight over her leg quarter). I actually had to rescue the
>chi/dachsie one day. Three hens and the rooster had her cornered and she was
>screaming bloody murder.

Okay Chris O. - how do you train the chickens not to kill and eat the dogs?

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (8)
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1b. Re: are the chickens at risk???
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:18 am ((PDT))

Bearhair <bearhair@...> wrote:
> Okay Chris O. - how do you train the chickens not to kill and eat the
dogs?
*****
You sit them down and show them movies of what happens to nasty upstart
chickens that overstep their bounds. Recommended footage includes
--anything of Julia Child
--anything by Monty Python spoofing Julia Child
--selected sections of Chicken Run
--"Sledgehammer" the video, by Peter Gabriel

Absent access to these, keep the species separated or attend a workshop
by Terry Ryan where in one learns to clicker train a chicken.

All of which can better be discussed on RawChat.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (8)
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2a. Re: Help Please: Stool Composition
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:24 am ((PDT))

"cepriz" <cfpriznar@...> wrote:

> We feed our dog raw and mix up the amount of meat and bone; try for a
> variety of meats, organ, eggs. He recently deposited stools in the
> house; with nuggets of waste, and almost a spray of black oily drops
> beyond stool deposit. Any suggestions?
*****
I;m sorry, I guess I am missing something. Suggestions for what?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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2b. Re: Help Please: Stool Composition
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:26 am ((PDT))

Well, if you fed organ the previous meal, black droplets aren't that uncommon. What comes
out reflects what went in, you know? Or do you mean an actual spray, as if he had a squirt
bottle in his bum? How long have you been feeding raw?

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cepriz" <cfpriznar@...> wrote:
>
> ++++Mod note: please make sure all emails are signed. ++++++++++++
>
>
> We feed our dog raw and mix up the amount of meat and bone; try for a
> variety of meats, organ, eggs. He recently deposited stools in the
> house; with nuggets of waste, and almost a spray of black oily drops
> beyond stool deposit. Any suggestions?
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Re: Support for criticism
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:39 am ((PDT))

"teampoodle" <teampoodle@...> wrote:
Everyday is "eww they are eating that on my floor!", or "can
> they really eat that bone?" the floor is hard wood, which is
cleaned
> all the time, and for the standard is a door mat carpet that is
washed
> quite often. the bones are all eaten outside. Anyway, what are some
> good responses to these?
*****
Feed the dogs when your mother is not around. And of course don't
leave evidence.

If you've explained to her that your dogs are eating healthy and
appropriate food; that they are well behaved and eat where they are
supposed to; and that you do scrupulously clean up after them, you
can do no more than wait yo Momma out. As she sees, much to her
disappointment, that no one is keeling over from this way of feeding,
she'll get over it. She'll never admit to getting over it, but she
will. At least in my experience benign inattention seems to be the
least offensive of getting one's own way.

Oh, I suppose if you have to put up collateral on your side you could
actually compromise and feed inside only when the weather sucks.

Chris

Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. Re: Feeding a whole turkey to a small dog
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:46 am ((PDT))

Michele wrote:

>I got a 22lb turkey from someone last night. Only my small dog can eat
>this since the big one is allergic. She's about 40 lbs and usually
>eats about 1-1.5 lbs a day. So, this is 2-3 weeks of meals for her.

Based on the information in your note, I would definitely hack it into
meal-sized pieces. Remember that you do not have to feed edible bone in
every meal. Turkey legs are not harder than your dog's teeth, but they may
be harder than your dog is willing to work on - feed them and see. Turkey
wings are no better than chicken wings in terms of having hardly any meat
with the bone, so your dog may have been tossing them up purely because it
was too much bone in one meal.

Lastly, be sure the turkey was not enhanced or injected with solution, broth,
or brine, as your dog may have a reaction to that, rather than the turkey
itself.

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (3)
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4b. Re: Feeding a whole turkey to a small dog
Posted by: "sd.little" sd.little@yahoo.ca sd.little
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:35 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "chele519" <chele519@...> wrote:
>
> I got a 22lb turkey from someone last night. Only my small dog can
eat
> this since the big one is allergic....
> I'm not too thrilled about the thought of putting it back in my
fridge
> every day for 2 weeks. TIA
> Michele

Michele,
I would chop the turkey up into chunks, package each one individually
and then re-freeze them to use at a later date.

Cheers, Debra

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Re: Beef Heart
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:53 am ((PDT))

Nathalie Poulin <poulin_nathalie@...> wrote:
>
> Hey guys,
>
> I went to the butcher today and got a beef heart. I
> just want to know if that can comprise a main meal or
> if too much (like liver) causes loose stools?
*****
Heart can comprise a main meal if/when the dog's ability to digest
that much heart deems it a sensible choice. Until then, feed heart
in smaller doses, either as a "snack" or as part of a larger meal.

Earlier in the day a similar question was posted about both heart and
kidney. Perhaps you might scan recently received digests if you take
your mail that way, or review the individual posts that have come
through from Rawfeeding...or joing Yahoogroups so you can do a search
for "beef heart". If you were to look, you'd see there are 21
previous posts addressing the topic.

Here's how to join Yahoogroups to access the Rawfeeding message
archives:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

Chris O

Messages in this topic (22)
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6a. Re: Bloat in large dogs
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:09 am ((PDT))

"Kaity Evans" <Aleighanra@...> wrote:
>
> The deep chested breeds are more prone to bloat, like Danes,
> Greyhouds, Borzoi, Afghans, etc. Using an elevated feeder/water dish
> is supposed to help also.
*****
This is stuff and nonsense. Sorry. It is not the deep chested breed
that is "prone to bloat", it is the deep chested individual. The dog
with a chest that is deeper than the breed generally carries is the
one "at risk". To say deep chested breeds are prone to bloat simply
perpetuates the folklore that is rampant.

Similarly, a raised dish has been implicated in causing bloat; it has
been at the very least shown NOT to be useful in preventing bloat. I
have little patience with the mythology and superstition that surround
bloat. Please refer to current information and get it as right as you
can.

I recommend you browse the list archives for "bloat"; also check the
RawChat archives. Here's how to access the rawfeeding page on Yahoo:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
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6b. Re: Bloat in large dogs
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:05 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> I recommend you browse the list archives for "bloat"; also check the
> RawChat archives. Here's how to access the rawfeeding page on
Yahoo:
> http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

*** I'm tired of talking about bloat so I've compiled a list of things
I've said before, to help the archive search:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/123073
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/115072
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/108358
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/106514
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/81793
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/67625

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (10)
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6c. Ok, no more talk about bloat, how about Mountain Oysters?
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:03 am ((PDT))

I got a pair at the butchers, yes I know what they are, lol, but
haven't seen anything on here about feeding them.

Are they an organ:? ........ stupid question, :)..........

Considered a muscle? What and how much to feed?

Carol & Charkee (who got elk for breakfast, yummmmm)

> *** I'm tired of talking about bloat so I've compiled a list of
things
> I've said before,
>
> --Carrie

Messages in this topic (10)
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6d. Re: Ok, no more talk about bloat, how about Mountain Oysters?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:12 am ((PDT))

"tottime47" <tottime@...> wrote:
>
> I got a pair at the butchers, yes I know what they are, lol, but
> haven't seen anything on here about feeding them.
>
> Are they an organ:? ........ stupid question, :)..........
>
> Considered a muscle? What and how much to feed?
*****
Tee hee.
I suspect some owners consider them muscles (and seriously big ones at
that) but they are reproductive organs.

I recommend you feed them as you would any new menu addition. Start
small (oh, be gentle), then increase quantity as the dog's experience
indicates.

This is a very difficult topic to discuss without getting all
snickery. Yes, one must be professional.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
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6e. Re: Ok, no more talk about bloat, how about Mountain Oysters?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:51 am ((PDT))

I feed them as organ, and I usually feed two at a time to my dogs. The fries I got have an. .
.unusual texture to say the least. My bf picked some up out of the pet food bin and fed it to
the cats, comes back and says "Wow the cats loved whatever that was. It had a creepy
texture, though. What was it?" I wish I had a camera when I saw his face. He flat refused to
touch them for about a month after that, but now he's back to laughing every time he
watches them get eaten.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "tottime47" <tottime@...> wrote:
>
> I got a pair at the butchers, yes I know what they are, lol, but
> haven't seen anything on here about feeding them.
>
> Are they an organ:? ........ stupid question, :)..........

Messages in this topic (10)
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6f. .........Re: Ok, no more talk about bloat, how about Mountain Oyster
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:54 am ((PDT))

Hi Chris O,

Thanks for the info.......honestly didn't know if they would be
worthy of feeding.

(Ya know, I have an intact male and didn't know if they would benifit
him or not, lol ;0)

Can you believe I found some Buffalo roast here for $3.69 a pound

I was too stunned to buy more than 1, have to go back and see if I
can buy some more at that price....

Thought it was a good price as the local farmers market was selling
it for $22.00 a lb.

Carol & Charkee (bring on the oysters)

> I recommend you feed them as you would any new menu addition.
Start
> small (oh, be gentle), then increase quantity as the dog's
experience
> indicates.
>
> This is a very difficult topic to discuss without getting all
> snickery. Yes, one must be professional.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (10)
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7. New to this group - looking for local raw enthusiasts
Posted by: "emma_mcelfresh" emma@hastypuppy.com emma_mcelfresh
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:26 am ((PDT))

Hi there!
I am new to this group and from Massachusetts...I was wondering if
anyone knew of a buying group on the North Shore. I am in Lowell, and
my greyhound, Gordon is thriving on raw. However, I only have one
dog, and no chest freezer (nor the means to buy one) and was wondering
if anyone was interested in "going in" on a big box of bulk meat, say
turkey or chicken necks, or whatever your dog prefers...Gordon will
eat most anything - whole fish included - I just don't have the
storage for 50 lbs of anything, but the savings when purchasing bulk
are worth it...Let me know if you are interested (I can find the
supplier if you'd like, I know a few butchers!)

Emma (+ Gordon)

Messages in this topic (1)
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8a. Re: Chicken & Parts is Parts
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:35 am ((PDT))

Yup, all the parts of a chicken are good. What is sometimes not good about chicken parts is
that they are parts. Chicken quarters are good sized, drummettes and wings are too small.
Depending on the size of the dog leg with thigh should be ok. I've never had any problems
with dogs gulping feet, but Suz had a scare earlier with her frenchie and opted to freeze
several together for a treat.

Yes, egg can help the skin and coat, and so can fish body oil. Egg is also great fun to give to
dogs and see what happens. Just don't give too many in one day, egg farts are pretty high up
there in the nosehair singing farts list.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. Re: Trouble with my Mom's Schnauzer
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:46 am ((PDT))

If he was fine with you, I think this has more to do with how your mom deals with feeding
than the dog itself. I had a similar situation when my sister lived with me for several
months. We switched her chi over to raw, cince I don't do kibble in my house, and he was
fine. Well, he was fine when I fed him. He never fussed or left his food alone, but when I
wasn't home and my sister tried to feed him it was a different story.

It all came down to the fact that my sister wasn't really as on board with raw feeding as
she let on, and her insecurities about the food were being transmitted to the dog. He
would hesitate for a split seccond and she would start worrying and say "oh, what's
wrong? Don't you like this?" To which he would respond with more hesitation until she
caved and cooked it for him. She moved back in with my parents and the poor thing is
back on Costco crap in a bag.

While they are visiting you, you should go back to game hens and start from square one.
At first, it might help to feed him when your mom isn't around. If he eats ok with you, you
just need to go over some tips for your mom. The whole thing about not looking directly
at the dogs while they eat, not hovering too near, occupying your mind with something
else, etc. I hope the little guy starts eating again soon. Good luck.

Andrea

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10a. New mom problem
Posted by: "Debra Morrow" kaliphi@tabletoptelephone.com kaliphi
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:17 am ((PDT))

Hi,
This is my first raw litter, pups are 3 days old. I have 2 questions...

What can I give her to calm her down...? Please... I need some sleep. She is
OCD about the pups and is not as careful as I would like. Someone said I could
give her Calms Forte but I can't find any documentation supporting that it won't
go through the milk.

Is there anything I need to give her extra for food other than upping her intake?
Maybe it's me but I am feeling the need to give extra somethings...<g>

Thankx
Debbie
Kaliphi Briards

-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through IMP: webmail.tabletoptelephone.com

Messages in this topic (2)
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10b. Re: New mom problem
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:10 am ((PDT))

Hi, Debbie!
I would recommend that you get a couple D.A.P. Comfort Zone diffusers
and put one in the whelping room, and the other wherever you keep your
dog when she isn't with the pups. This can help keep the ambiance more
calming for the pups and your dog. You can order it online, most
places have rush shipping.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0002XAEJC/ref=sr_1_olp_2/105-5486325-8306023?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1183222797&sr=8-2
http://tinyurl.com/ytwsgw
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0002DHUQW/ref=sr_1_olp_14/105-5486325-8306023?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1183222868&sr=8-14
http://tinyurl.com/2cmpkp
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0007ZLR46/ref=sr_1_olp_2/105-5486325-8306023?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1183223030&sr=8-2
http://tinyurl.com/27rfe9
http://www.amazon.com/D-P-Collar-Appeasing-Pheromone/dp/B000FAUFF0/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3/105-5486325-8306023?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1183223190&sr=8-3
http://tinyurl.com/2rdy4r
Keeping her crated and in sight of you when she isn't with the pups is
what I'd suggest. If that isn't working for you, try to put her in a
separate, secure place with a stuffed Kong chewy or some stuffed
fleecies. Put the fleecies near the pups when she is with them, so
they take on the odor of the pups and whelping box.
Also, I recommend that you take a deep breath and try to remain calm
yourself. First time mothers can be anxious and first time
*grand*mothers can be anxious, too, and communicate their anxiety to
one another until it is an ever increasing feedback loop.
Is there any chance you could ask an experienced friend or relative to
sit in for several hours so you can sleep?
As for feeding her special foods, whatever she especially likes or
wants would be my opinion. I'd let her eat until she was satiated.
Turkey has tryptophan, might eating it make her a little calmer?
*shrug* Dunno. I'd try it.
HTH
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hi,
> This is my first raw litter, pups are 3 days old. I have 2 questions...
>
> What can I give her to calm her down...? Please... I need some
sleep. She is
> OCD about the pups and is not as careful as I would like. Someone
said I could
> give her Calms Forte but I can't find any documentation supporting
that it won't
> go through the milk.
>
> Is there anything I need to give her extra for food other than
upping her intake?
> Maybe it's me but I am feeling the need to give extra somethings...<g>
>
> Thankx
> Debbie
> Kaliphi Briards

Messages in this topic (2)
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11a. Re: Very sick puppy
Posted by: "chamelett2003" chamelett2003@yahoo.com chamelett2003
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:50 am ((PDT))

I am now afraid to feed raw. I have three dogs. Two are fine on raw for
one year. The third a 6 month old Chihuahua almost died. I have had her
for two months and put her on raw the day I got her. She quit eating
two weeks ago, hidding out in her crate, no energy to play. Then
vomiting green liquid. Then 5 days later green liquid diarrhea. She
went from 3 lbs to 5 lbs, got sick and lost down to 4.2lbs in 5 days.
Negative for parvo x2, no coccidia, no gerardia, no parisites or ov.
Serum wbc were fine. Blood sugar was 39! She almost died. I had to
forse feed high calorie paste and inject fluids 100cc/day
subcutainiously every day to keep her alive. She started eating
yesterday 24 hours after the start of amoxicillin. I am feeding her
cooked chicken meat. I am scared to death to feed her anything raw! how
can I get calcium in her if I can't feed her raw?
Please help,
Jill

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12. Diarrhea in Newbie Great Dane.
Posted by: "Katie Baker" declansmama@gmail.com katherinebaker2
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:50 am ((PDT))

Last Friday, the 22nd, we brought home a new 3 month old Dane pup
and named her Fable. She's about 30 pounds and in fairly good shape
as far as her weight goes. Her previous owner was feeding her
WalMart brand Large Puppy food. :-(

Tuesday night we feed her her first raw Chicken Quarter and had no
issues. Tuesday night she had one large solid poop and quite a bit
of diarrhea. We continued feeding her Chicken Quarters, one both
morning and night, for a total of 2 pieces a day. She turns her nose
up at more than one piece, but has no problems finishing one quarter
per meal. She hasn't had a solid poop since Tuesday and I'd just
like some reassurance that this is normal. Her poops are super
watery, stink to high heck and are mostly green. No bone chunks or
anything.

Oh, on Wednesday my mom stopped by and filled her dish with Eukanuba
kibble (She feels that a raw diet is not good for the dog, but we
got rid of the kibble). So she had her first raw meal Tuesday night,
a quarter on Wednesday morning, kibble in the afternoon and raw
since then. I figured this may have something to do with her upset
bowels, as well.

How long will the diarrhea continue and at what point should I worry?
When can I start introducing other meats or organs? Eggs?
If we offer her more than one piece of chicken, will she stop when
she's done?
Should we feed her more than twice a day? Or is two meals sufficient
until she's a full grown adult?

Thanks for your help!
-Katie and Fable

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13a. day 1, this is going to be a looong haul
Posted by: "Linda Edgington" lindagail849@yahoo.com lindagail849
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:51 am ((PDT))

My dog inhales his food. He has to eat in 2 seconds flat. I started out with chicken breast. I tried to grab an end of it, and he snarled at be. Got into trouble right away! Now what do I do?

Linda

---------------------------------
Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.
Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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13b. Re: day 1, this is going to be a looong haul
Posted by: "llamacharm@frontier.net" llamacharm@frontier.net deb_har
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:36 am ((PDT))

Quoting Linda Edgington <lindagail849@yahoo.com>:

> My dog inhales his food. He has to eat in 2 seconds flat. I
> started out with chicken breast. I tried to grab an end of it, and
> he snarled at be. Got into trouble right away! Now what do I do?

You might try breaking it up into bite size pieces and feeding by hand
one nugget at a time while teaching some manners. I am a trainer and
you can email me privately if you like, llamacharm@frontier.net, but
since this is not a training list, we won't take up folks' time here.

Deb, Kimi, Bear and all the llamas

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13c. Re: day 1, this is going to be a looong haul
Posted by: "llamacharm@frontier.net" llamacharm@frontier.net deb_har
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:54 am ((PDT))

I am a trainer and
you can email me privately if you like, llamacharm@frontier.net, but
since this is not a training list, we won't take up folks' time here.

I meant to say this would just be free tips. Sorry, didn't meant to
imply anything else!

Deb, Kimi, Bear and all the llamas

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14. Advice re: softest bones?
Posted by: "Sam" smmastai@yahoo.com smmastai
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:35 am ((PDT))

We've been feeding our Australian Shepherd along the prey model largely consisting of duck
anbd chicken, but we do use beef bones occasionally as recreational bones. We're concerned
those bones might be too hard, so any advice anyone could offer on softer bones that could
be appropriate for recreation would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks...

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