[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11743

There are 18 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: are the chickens at risk???
From: costrowski75
1b. Re: are the chickens at risk???
From: Michelle LaFay
1c. Re: are the chickens at risk???
From: anjagsd

2a. re-post Help:Stool Composition
From: cepriz
2b. Re: Help:Stool Composition
From: Bearhair

3a. RMB's during a pregnancy
From: nickandnoel@aol.com

4a. Re: Standard Poodle Puppy 9weeks
From: cepriz

5a. Beef Heart
From: Nathalie Poulin
5b. Re: Beef Heart
From: brutus_buckley

6a. Re: tiny 8 week old papillon puppy
From: Carrie Kelly
6b. Re: tiny 8 week old papillon puppy
From: Giselle

7.1. Re: itchy dog
From: Giselle

8. Re: Digest Number 11741
From: Cathy Doyle

9a. Re: Taylor Pond Farms Was: What do you stock your freezer with?
From: Bearhair

10a. Re: Newbie with question about parts
From: Bearhair

11. Re: Frogs
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

12a. Re: Bloat in large dogs
From: Kaity Evans

13. Feeding a whole turkey to a small dog
From: chele519

Messages
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1a. Re: are the chickens at risk???
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:59 pm ((PDT))

carolyn arnold <celebrationcookies@...> wrote:
once dogs get the taste of blood the chickens on the acreage are
history. What do you say about dogs being fed raw then attacking
other animals because they have then the taste of blood???
*****
If one allows one's kibblefed dogs to chase/kill chickens, the switch
to raw food will not change the behavior. If one's dogs when kibble
fed have learned to respect the birds, they will not forget their
training on raw food.

It is a training issue, although the training may need some
refreshing if temptation is profound.

FWIW, my heathen golden bitch, 60lb of rip and tear enthusiasm, will
eat a whole baby goat (stillborn) except for the back legs in less
than an hour. She eats whole rabbits. Except for whole mackerel,
she eats anything.

She is also field trained to retrieve waterfowl and upland game.

Bunnies with serious suicide-by-dog intentions often run from under
the shed in the back yard, across the barn yard and under the paddock
fence to safety (where only the owls can get them). Occasionally my
bitch will catch one. I assume she kills it, although there's no
blood anywhere; perhaps the rabbit simply dies of shock, I don't
know. But there is no damage to the rabbit and she is absolutely
delighted to present it to me, good retriever that she is.

When any of my high drive dogs (three retrievers, one bc pup) chase
these really dumb bunnies in my presence, they absolutely stop when I
call them off. That's what training is all about.

That's what you need to address, not the diet.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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1b. Re: are the chickens at risk???
Posted by: "Michelle LaFay" pawsitivelycaring@gmail.com mblafay
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:02 am ((PDT))

Our dogs eat lots of chicken and all are just fine with our free range
chickens. We do have to be careful feeding the dogs while the chickens are
out because....the chickens have been known to take the food from the dogs.
My border collie gets all discombobulated if the chickens get anywhere near
her while she's eating, she hunkers down and doesn't know whether to try to
bolt the food (something she never does), run with it or just plain run (the
first time she did just say screw the food and ran for her life, leaving the
two hens to fight over her leg quarter). I actually had to rescue the
chi/dachsie one day. Three hens and the rooster had her cornered and she was
screaming bloody murder. The boys (mini schnauzer and an azawakh) ignore
them while eating pretty good, just take their food to another spot if they
get to close. The bc does think she is supposed to herd the chickens around
but other than that none of them bother the chickens at all and they are out
with them for several hours a day.

On 6/29/07, carolyn arnold <celebrationcookies@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I just tallked with my friend who raises gsd in Minnesota. I have been
> telling her about my raising my gsd on raw. She said (from one who lives on
> an acreage) that once dogs get the taste of blood the chickens on the
> acreage are history. What do you say about dogs being fed raw then
> attacking other animals because they have then the taste of
> blood??? Thanks, Carolyn
>
>

--
Michelle LaFay
Pawsitively Caring Pet Sitting
http://www.pawsitivelycaring.com
pawsitivelycaring@gmail.com

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Messages in this topic (5)
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1c. Re: are the chickens at risk???
Posted by: "anjagsd" Anja_Heibloem-Stroud@msn.com anjagsd
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:02 am ((PDT))

Most of my GSD's couldn't care less if a chicken strolls by, but I do
have a couple who take great delight in wanting to catch them (and eat
them), those have learned the hard way they need to leave my livestock
alone, and one who couldn't care less if I kill her stays in her kennel
because she just isn't trustworthy (she thought one of my horses looked
quite tasty). Training is a big part, and learning your dogs "signs"
she may want to have some fun too! Anja Heibloem Stroud
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. re-post Help:Stool Composition
Posted by: "cepriz" cfpriznar@aol.com cepriz
Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:03 pm ((PDT))

We feed our dog raw and mix up the amount of meat and bone; try for a
variety of meats, organ, eggs. He recently deposited stools in the
house; with nuggets of waste, and almost a spray of black oily drops
beyond stool deposit. Any suggestions?
Thank you
Chris

Messages in this topic (2)
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2b. Re: Help:Stool Composition
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:02 am ((PDT))

Chris wrote:

>We feed our dog raw and mix up the amount of meat and bone; try for a
>variety of meats, organ, eggs. He recently deposited stools in the
>house; with nuggets of waste, and almost a spray of black oily drops
>beyond stool deposit. Any suggestions?

Let him outside sooner?

Okay, okay, . . . what does his stool normally look like? Are the nuggets
normal and you're only concerned about the oil slick?

My first inclination is that perhaps he had a bit too much organ the night
before.

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. RMB's during a pregnancy
Posted by: "nickandnoel@aol.com" nickandnoel@aol.com lils_danes
Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:05 pm ((PDT))

I recently fed raw to a pregnant female and we had 10 very healthy chunky
pups...a friend of mine recent fed a popular brand of K***ble and ended up with
9 healthy puppies and a "water pup"....this is the second time the female has
had pups with birth defects on this brand of food and won't switch. When I
cared for the female last year and had a litter we were still feeding k**ble
but was using a holistic brand and didn't have any pups born with birth
defects.

Raw during pregnancy is great and the puppies are nice and fat...at least
mine were.... I doubled the moms food during pregnancy and tripled it during
nursing...This girl actually ate and drank throughout the whelping process also
which I had never seen a bitch do that before, but first time for
everything. Now that the bitch (no she wasn't mine, I'm just whelping the litter and
caring for the pups) is back home they have put her back on K**ble which is
too bad because she really liked eating raw and looked great even for a mom of
10.

Lil

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

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Messages in this topic (9)
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4a. Re: Standard Poodle Puppy 9weeks
Posted by: "cepriz" cfpriznar@aol.com cepriz
Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:08 pm ((PDT))

Hello,
We have a standard poodle who was raised raw from birth, whom we
brought home as a pup. It sounds like you are following good progresive
feeding. Yes, she will eat most of a chicken bone and leave some
fragments. I take the bone fragments away. As our pup shed his baby
teeth, we left the hamburger/soft diet to a more bone diet. Your
poodle will let you now what she likes. Be sure to introduce organ
meat and other boned meat besides chicken. This is a great group for
information, sharing and support.
Chris

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "boyleygod" <franvesey@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, I have just joined today and would like advise on raw feeding my
> new pup. She has been reared on raw minced beef and wheetabix with
> goats milk - two meals of each a day. Today I gave her a raw chicken
> drumstick which she demolished very quickly leaving only a tiny piece
> of bone - is this OK? A couple of friends seem to think its dangerous.
> I have also tried her on very lightly steamed cod today and she
doesn't
> want to know.
> All comments gratefully received.
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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5a. Beef Heart
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:20 pm ((PDT))

Hey guys,

I went to the butcher today and got a beef heart. I
just want to know if that can comprise a main meal or
if too much (like liver) causes loose stools?

Thanks,

Nathalie

Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca

Messages in this topic (21)
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5b. Re: Beef Heart
Posted by: "brutus_buckley" brutus_buckley@yahoo.com brutus_buckley
Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:42 pm ((PDT))

// I just want to know if that can comprise a main meal or if too much
(like liver) causes loose stools? //

***Beef heart can cause loose stools if the dog isn't used to eating
it. I recommend starting with small amounts as part of a meal.
Eventually, depending on how the dog handles it, you can feed entire
meals of heart. My dogs love it!
-Renee W.

Messages in this topic (21)
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6a. Re: tiny 8 week old papillon puppy
Posted by: "Carrie Kelly" winencandy@yahoo.ca winencandy
Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:20 pm ((PDT))

Thank you for the suggestions, Carrie & Giselle. We got home tonight after a 3.5 hour ride from the breeder's. I cut up some tiny pieces because it had been so long since she'd last eaten. At first she sniffed a piece, she wasn't sure what it was. Once she tasted it, she ate the small amount I'd cut up. (My daughter had been watching her too - she turned away for a minute - looked back and said "Where'd it go?") Then I gave her a 1/3 of the chicken breast. She danced around it, tugging at the skin, trying to tear off a piece. She can't quite get anything off of it yet, but she had fun trying. It was amazing watching such a tiny little pup figure out what to do. Next time I will offer her the large piece first, and then if necessary, cut it up for her. BTW, her name is Lily.
Carrie K
Jazz (Lab X - 13), Oliver (Cat - 3) & Lily (Papillon - 8 weeks)

WinenCandy

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Messages in this topic (5)
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6b. Re: tiny 8 week old papillon puppy
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:02 pm ((PDT))

Lovely, Carrie!
A Papillon pup may be in my future! I'm seriously considering that
breed, as well as a few others.
You might want to ribbon the meat on the bone for her at first, to
give her tiny mouth/teeth something easy to grip at first.
I'll be thrilled to hear of Lily's progress!
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Thank you for the suggestions, Carrie & Giselle. We got home
tonight after a 3.5 hour ride from the breeder's. I cut up some tiny
pieces because it had been so long since she'd last eaten. At first
she sniffed a piece, she wasn't sure what it was. Once she tasted it,
she ate the small amount I'd cut up. (My daughter had been watching
her too - she turned away for a minute - looked back and said "Where'd
it go?") Then I gave her a 1/3 of the chicken breast. She danced
around it, tugging at the skin, trying to tear off a piece. She can't
quite get anything off of it yet, but she had fun trying. It was
amazing watching such a tiny little pup figure out what to do. Next
time I will offer her the large piece first, and then if necessary,
cut it up for her. BTW, her name is Lily.
> Carrie K
> Jazz (Lab X - 13), Oliver (Cat - 3) & Lily (Papillon - 8 weeks)
>
>
> WinenCandy
>
> ---------------------------------
> All new Yahoo! Mail
> ---------------------------------
> Get news delivered. Enjoy RSS feeds right on your Mail page.
>
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>

Messages in this topic (5)
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7.1. Re: itchy dog
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:29 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Laurie!
Most of the time it is the environment, often something we don't even
think about, thatis causing itchiness in a dog.
But, something you can do right away dietwise that seems to help some
itchy dogs is to add Omega 3 - in the form of Salmon or Fish Body oil.
I'm spotty in remembering to feed this to my dog, as she isn't itchy,
so I'd suggest you do a message search for Omega 3 supplement, Salmon
oil, Fish body oil, etc. and you will get the recent discussions of
Brands, sources, whether to feed pump or caps, and what dosages are
good. Here's the most recent thread;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/13865
The other thing you can do is be sure that the chicken & pork you buy
hasn't got injected salt solutions or been enhanced with flavorings or
seasonings. This is often reported as making some list members dogs itchy.
Some list members also report that feeding any chicken can cause
itchiness in a few dogs. Some can tolerate chicken once or twice a
week, some not at all.
HTH
giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> > Um, exactly what are you feeding, how much and when?
>
> I generally feed her chicken parts, pork, fish (weekly), small amounts
> of liver, kidney, heart, occasionally egg. She eats late in the
> afternoon daily. We have no new carpet or other changes in the house;
> she's been itchy since she was a pup and is now 5 1/2 yrs. old. It's
> all year long, not seasonal. Thanks in advance for your help!
>
> Laurie
>

Messages in this topic (30)
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8. Re: Digest Number 11741
Posted by: "Cathy Doyle" cathyd@empireone.net cathysgirls
Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:42 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE REMEMBER TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT LINE WHEN REPLYING TO DAILY DIGEST.***

on 6/29/07 5:22 PM, rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com at rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
wrote:

> 9.2. Re: Eating grass
> Posted by: "pitbullanholder" pitbullanholder@yahoo.com pitbullanholder
> Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:13 am ((PDT))
>
> Evie,
> I have noticed the same with my furkids...they were eating a
> relatively middle of the line kibble and grass grazing was part of our
> outdoor time...changed them to a high quality kibble it seemed to
> stop. Started on raw about 3 weeks ago and had grazing for about the
> first 2 weeks and now it seems to be slowing down.

I have a dog who loves to eat mown grass! She doesn't bother with growing
grass, but will eat the grass after my husband has mowed the lawn. She's a
picky eater (and is also picky about the grass she eats!). I suspect that
she is probably missing something in her diet and is trying to "correct" it
by eating the grass. She also eats flys and other insects (when she can
catch them!). I am hoping that the grass eating will eventually stop as we
get her to eat more of the good raw food like beef heart and tripe (two of
the foods that she is picky about eating).

Cathy :)

Messages in this topic (1)
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9a. Re: Taylor Pond Farms Was: What do you stock your freezer with?
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:02 am ((PDT))

Jessie wrote:

>Emailed him
>again. Monday I get a response saying they *will* be shipping me a
>new order... responded that I was confused about if and when the
>package would go out and when I could expect it. I've heard nothing
>since.

You can reach them at 616.844.4031

Lora

Messages in this topic (4)
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10a. Re: Newbie with question about parts
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:02 am ((PDT))

Kerry wrote:

>1 - I'm happily vegetarian and incredibly squeamish about handling
>this raw food.

Can you identify more specifically what makes you squeamish? Touch, smell,
cutting, visual? Particular cuts of meat? Particular types of meat? Perhaps
we can make suggestions for specific concerns.

>2 - I am part of a local Community Supported Agriculture (CSA - great
>way to meet local farmers!) group. . . . I am going to guess that these suppliers have various
>parts left over after slaughter and would be willing to wrap and ship
>them to me with the regular group shipments. . . .

For poultry, ask for "everything the processor will release, including necks,
feet, and heads." Chicken heads may not be considered human-grade food and so
might not be released - I'm not sure. I get frozen chicken heads from Taylor
Pond Farms (mixed reviews recently on this list). They're only big enough for
a few good crunches. I should ask him about turkey heads though . . .

Giblets are organs and sometimes the neck, so their availability is subject
to how the farmer sells his poultry. It never hurts to ask.

>- Beyond the large weight-bearing bones of the beefalo, is there
>anything else I would need to avoid requesting? Neck bones too thick?

It depends on your dog. The issue with asking for bones is that you're likely
to get them completely trimmed, with no meat on them. Ask for "any and all
meat left over that is not ground by the processor and any and all offal, all
in whole pieces." This might get you a whole oxtail, for example.

>Does anyone have this relationship with a local source of grassfed
>beef and free-range poultry? How much per pound would be a reasonable
>price (the turkeys are being offered as a Thanksgiving purchase for
>$4/lb with an average size of 16 lbs - I may just splurge and get one
>for the freezer, but this gives me some sense of price at least for
>the poultry products)?

I've come to an agreement with a lamb farmer where I can get organic lamb
bones (very edible but very trimmed, so I feed with other meat) and
less-favored lamb parts (heart, liver, kidney, tongue) for $1 per pound. The
key is maximizing their profit by (a) taking a large quantity in a single
delivery and (b) taking a large quantity in a single PACKAGE (minimizing
their packaging and packaging time). She also partners with a Black Angus
Farm, and sold me grass-fed beef liver, heart and tongue, again for $1 per
pound. This price is not great compared to what you could buy at Wal-Mart
<shudder> but its quality is over the top!

I have no idea what the market price would be for the usual offerings (whole
chickens or turkeys, etc.).

Contact the farmer and see what you can work out!

Lora
Evanston, IL

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11. Re: Frogs
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:02 am ((PDT))

In a message dated 6/29/2007 10:50:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com writes:

Here's the nutritional content:
>_http://www.nutritiohttp://wwwhttp://www.nuhttp://www.n_
(http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c220p.html)

****
Thanks, Lora. :)

Lynda

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

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Messages in this topic (1)
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12a. Re: Bloat in large dogs
Posted by: "Kaity Evans" Aleighanra@aol.com aleighanra
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:03 am ((PDT))

The deep chested breeds are more prone to bloat, like Danes,
Greyhouds, Borzoi, Afghans, etc. Using an elevated feeder/water dish
is supposed to help also. I got mine on ebay, specially customized at
20" for my Dane. It is raised so that the dog is not gulping air as he
is trying to eat or drink, thus reducing the collection of air in the
stomach. Although, my dog belches after EVERY meal, so I don't think
he will be bloating anytime soon! Check them out at
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150135940479&ih=005&category=20747

What kind of dog do you have?

-Kaity & Ziggy the Merle

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mob1043" <ynotbeastar@...> wrote:
>
> I know that large dogs are prone to bloat. I am excited to think this
> way of eating will keep that from happening since they aren't gulping
> down grains and they are digesting more easily? Am I Ok to assume
> that? I still feed twice a day.
>
> Michele
>

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13. Feeding a whole turkey to a small dog
Posted by: "chele519" chele519@yahoo.com chele519
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 5:22 am ((PDT))

I got a 22lb turkey from someone last night. Only my small dog can eat
this since the big one is allergic. She's about 40 lbs and usually
eats about 1-1.5 lbs a day. So, this is 2-3 weeks of meals for her.
Before I knew the other one was allergic, I had given turkey wings and
she had trouble with the bones, kept throwing them up. Are turkey leg
bones too hard since they are a weight bearing bone? Obviously they
are not as hard as cow leg bones but harder than chicken legs.

I had thought of cutting the meat off the legs and giving it to her as
boneless and giving her the breast with bones. I figured the breast
would not be as hard since it's not weight bearing. Since I'm sure
that will be pretty big, should I try to cut it into pieces? She's not
great about letting me take food back to give the rest another day and
I'm not too thrilled about the thought of putting it back in my fridge
every day for 2 weeks. TIA
Michele

Messages in this topic (1)
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